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Outcomes Rocket Podcast - Lisa Suennen

Why Health Leaders Must Seriously Consider Social Determinants of Health with Lisa Suennen, Senior Managing Director, Healthcare at GE Ventures and Managing Partner at Venture Valkyrie, LLC

: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we inspire collaborative thinking, improved outcomes and business success with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders and influencers. And now your host Saul Marquez

Saul Marquez: [00:00:19] Outcomes rocket listeners, welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders really want to thank you for tuning in. And I want to invite you to outcomes rocket dot com slash reviews rec'd leave a rating and review for this podcast. So without further ado I want to introduce our outstanding guest. Her name is Lisa Suennen. She's a senior managing director for healthcare and G.E. ventures. And so she's also a writer and blogger and podcaster at Venture Valkyrie and so she's done a lot of things. You guys are probably very familiar with who she is but what I want to do is welcome Lisa to the podcast and then have to fill in any of the gaps in the intro that I may have missed. Lisa welcome.

Lisa Suennen: [00:01:03] Hello there. Well that's about that about covers and I do all kinds of crazy stuff but that's the main thing the main day jobs.

Saul Marquez: [00:01:09] I love it. I love it you're up to some really cool things. And so I always love to ask why did you get into health care to begin with.

Lisa Suennen: [00:01:17] You know it wasn't really an intention. I was working in the tech world. This is back you know in the 80s I was finding it frankly pretty boring sultry Internet kind of stuff right. Yeah. And I talked to my dad who had been in a health care entrepreneur who was healthcare entrepreneur. And he said you know there's some really interesting health care companies you might find that were inspiring and I meet up with a guy a new CEO of a company and the rest is history.

Saul Marquez: [00:01:43] That's pretty cool. You know and it sounds like your dad kind of had the roots in healthcare entrepreneurship and you just kind of led that way and you haven't looked back since.

Lisa Suennen: [00:01:51] I look sideways every once in a while but no not too far.

Saul Marquez: [00:01:55] Nice nice. I love it. I love it. So you're doing some really cool things at G.E. movement and shaking with your own podcast. I have tuned into it. Really great great conversations listeners I'll include a link to Lisa's podcast on the show notes for this one so you could listen because Craig Onix. That's right. Called tectonics and so take a listen. She's doing some really cool stuff on there too. Lisa what do you think. I know all the things that are going on in health care is a hot topic that should be on every medical leaders agenda today.

Lisa Suennen: [00:02:27] Well I think a lot of people would expect me to say technology stuff and there is a lot of technology stuff going on. And I'm glad for that. But I also think that one of the most important things that we can really pay attention to is figuring out how to systematize productize and simplify the access to the social determinants of health. Things around housing nutrition transportation and other related categories that frankly have far more impact on the cost of health care than do many things that we attribute the cost of health care too. And so while I am a big fan of technology and health care and excited about a lot of things that's probably the number one most impactful thing we can do is expand our view of precision health to include an entire patients life.

Saul Marquez: [00:03:15] I think that's really interesting and you know the first thought that comes to mind. Lisa I've been doing a lot of thinking about this and one of the things that you've probably very aware is when companies get into this space oftentimes they're faced with the problems of who pays for it and when you talk about the social determinants of health. Who pays for it.

Lisa Suennen: [00:03:33] Well it's a touch you know obviously the 64000 dollar question as well. I think in a system that's a closed or fully at risk capitated type of system the answer is easy it's the payer right because frankly the downstream cost of not attending to these issues is so high. You know if a patient needs to get an A for services and treatment but they have no transportation it's going to be more expensive take care of them if they can't get access to behavioral health services keep him stabilized they're not going to take care of their diabetes or her condition. Right. So it's really easy on the interest financial interests are aligned when they're not. It's tough you know and the truth is the same in the end I think ultimately it was ever financial risk for the program for the person or the member whomever it may be is who should pay for it. If they're looking to reduce healthcare costs and improve outcomes.

Saul Marquez: [00:04:26] Yeah and just kind of diving deeper into that Lisa. The thought is OK well maybe these patients where now they're being tagged with readmission fees right the provider. So. And yeah so just it's a really great idea and just picking through it could be really impactful. You know anybody doing cool stuff in the space right now.

Lisa Suennen: [00:04:46] I do, actually I think there's a couple companies like healthify, Nowpow and ConsejoSano who are doing finding ways to create for profit business models out of these things companies like CareMore the healthplan. Oh yeah they're doing some incredible stuff particularly around lowliness which frankly is considered to be more deleterious about health and smoking now among older populations. It's very interesting yeah. There's a lot of a lot of work been done about that. So there are some really great programmatic work being done out there. There's a great organization called the Health leagues which is working on this for years. So you know there's a lot of good stuff. It's just not widespread yet. Unscalable and I think some of these organizations are trying to figure out how to solve that.

Saul Marquez: [00:05:32] Yeah for sure. Some great examples and definitely listeners take a look at these companies because if you're exploring the space if anybody knows companies doing good thing that's Lisa. So take a look at those for sure. I'll provide links in the in the show notes too. But Lisa give us an example of how you maybe GE or through you or your own you know podcasting are seeing outcomes improvement through the things that you're doing.

Lisa Suennen: [00:05:59] Well I think that our goal actually ventures is to invest in things that align incentives improve outcomes and reduce costs for all parties involved. We are really excited for instance about sysops which is a company that I did interview the CEO Ken Tarka on my cast recently. They combined data from Myanmar's and genomic data and the like to help identify what's the most effective likely treatments for cancer patients. You know personalized medicine approach. Yes I think that's a good example of that. We're working with another company called Health reveal which uses similarly large quantities of data from disparate sources to identify patients who are not getting treated in accordance with best practices of evidence based medicine. Identify people who might be very likely to have a stroke or heart attack or something and intervene with them before those horrible things happen which obviously saves money but more importantly saves lives. Yeah. So you know that's a big focus of what we do and to the extent we can identify those types of things that align incentives for patient payer and provider. Those are things we look for.

Saul Marquez: [00:07:08] I love that those are really great examples of the sign it's so great that you're doing this you know having these people on your show having these conversations because half the battle is breaking down the silos and communication and health care and so kudos to you for taking the six that so maybe you could share with us. Lisa you've done a lot in health care of a time when you had a setback or a failure and what you took out of that. What pearls of wisdom you took out of that.

Lisa Suennen: [00:07:35] Well I mean those of us who've been inventor or have had numerous setbacks and failures. The odds of all of our companies succeeding are pretty low. And I think about one for instance along the way that what does it do. Actually it was kind of focused on the social determinants thing. Ironically it was. But cancer was focused on getting ancillary services to cancer patients like physical therapy nutrition counseling financial counseling behavioral counseling. You know things that address the side effects of having cancer and being treated for cancer and it was set up kind of as an in clinic model with them physician offices within cancer clinics you know particularly the community sometimes in hospitals and it failed. And I was really upset by that because I didn't really believe what they were doing was good and it was clearly good. I mean there was no dispute as to whether it was helpful to patients patients loved yes but physicians just the oncologist at the time and this is now probably 10 years ago sort of early on in the discussion of paying for the social determinants types of stuff or the ancillary services type stuff. I think it's more common now particularly at the NCI Caterson cancer centers and the like physicians just couldn't remember to refer to it didn't bother to refer to it you know and I think part of it was workflow didn't exactly fit the workflow. Yeah the part of it was frankly it didn't add real revenue to their practices and that we know stood in the way of success and really taught me about how how important that aspect of it is not just the workflow I do about the workflow aspect. We worked hard on that. We obviously didn't get it right but also the financial incentive alignment was a stark example because you're doing something you know is good. You can't get people to refer to it for financial reasons they just didn't make any real revenue from it while they didn't lose money from it. It just didn't care enough.

Saul Marquez: [00:09:27] Yeah Lisa that's such a great great lesson and listeners something to consider as you dive into your business ideas or if you're looking to implement something into your hospital. Lisa brings in some really great examples. This company that just the heart was there but the money and the incentives weren't truly aligned. And it's something that you really have to make sure it's aligned. Yeah. You know Lisa one of the things that comes to mind when we talk about aligned incentives is the implementation of CAP Nagra fee to avoid respiratory compromise in hospitals. And I'll tell you what. You know it's one of those things that should be done but frankly is not done everywhere and it's just an example of you got to make sure you find a way to either bake it into the order set the physician or otherwise find a financial incentive because otherwise it's not happening.

Lisa Suennen: [00:10:23] Yeah well there's many examples of things like that unfortunately and until we have a system where the financial alignment is ubiquitous we will continue to find examples of things like this.

Saul Marquez: [00:10:33] Totally. LISA Okay. So that's one side of the coin. Let's look at the other side the much more bright and amazing side the stuff that you do. What are your proudest moments to date in what you do.

Lisa Suennen: [00:10:45] We'll give you not what you probably expect to answer but my proudest moments are really two things that come to my mind immediately. One is that my daughter told me not that long ago my daughter is in college that she appreciated that I was a role model for her and I know that's like. But you know it really meant something to me that I was always the mom that worked among many moms that didn't around me and that I felt really committed to that and I did what I could to be with her of course but that I felt it was important to have a career to model that for her and she all the guilt that I felt all those years of not being around for whatever programs at school. I think that all washed away with that discussion. For one thing the other thing is now you know being of a certain age and not in my 20s anymore. I spent a lot of time advocating for women and strictly women in leadership and health care and I appreciate that people look up to me for that and that I've been able to do something active and create a company called C-sweetener for mentoring of women in leadership and health care that's been taking off and I know that people respond to it and feel excited about it. And it's very gratifying. I mean it's of course gratifying to invest in a great company and see them succeed. That's incredibly gratifying. But some of the other stuff has been super exciting too.

Saul Marquez: [00:12:09] Totally. And you know what. It's so wonderful. Thanks for sharing that. Lisa I'll have to replay this part of the podcast for my wife because she and she does get these feelings of guilt. And so you're doing an amazing job. Just trust me you are. And so I'm hoping that my son when he grows up he can say the same thing he said to you and I'm going to give him some guidance. So thanks for sharing that and the other organization. I wasn't aware of that when me so that you started that. So that's very encouraging to hear that you have a movement like that in place.

Lisa Suennen: [00:12:44] Yeah it's a company called the C-sweetener. He could find it on the web light of what is going on

Saul Marquez: [00:12:50] Why the name, it's a really interesting name.

Lisa Suennen: [00:12:52] It was a play on the word c suite is the target women who are already women in the sweetener were either in the c sweet or near to the c sweet, to make it a sweeter experience. Hence the name. And like that it's kind of a model where women can sign up as men to use it's for women who are you know senior level and match with mentors through batching that's both skill based and interest based as well as personality based with mentors who've signed up and committed time who are extremely experienced people both men and women dedicated to helping women find more in their careers.

Saul Marquez: [00:13:31] That's so cool. Definitely another one we'll have to check out listener so if you find yourself as somebody that can give mentorship or you want to receive mentorship your lady wanting to receive mentorship please visit. But if the mentors could be men and women right.

Lisa Suennen: [00:13:46] Yes the mentors can be men and women I mean we really feel strongly that if men don't participate in the change it will never be struggling.

Saul Marquez: [00:13:53] Yeah for sure. Oh that's so great. So listeners you'll have a link to that too. Lisa doing some amazing things. Tell us about an exciting project you're working on today.

Lisa Suennen: [00:14:02] Well I think we're starting to do a GE where I work is very much a leader in 3-D printing broadly and we're starting a project on the investing side to really focus it on where the opportunities are going to be to make a material difference no pun intended. And I was just going to say a 3D printing world applied to healthcare and I'm really excited about that. I feel like that could have. It's early in the 3D printing application elsewhere but I see how it could have really a big impact over time. You know and we want to be at the front of.

Saul Marquez: [00:14:37] That it's really exciting. And so if you had to say one thing that that's exciting say ten years from now in that space what is the prospect of fill in the blank.

Lisa Suennen: [00:14:46] Printing scanned printing organs printing bone.

Saul Marquez: [00:14:49] The biological side of it.

Lisa Suennen: [00:14:50] Yeah. I mean we're already using it for her some things health care at least experimentally but boy can you imagine how many lives could be saved if you could could use some of those things and use organic products and the body great can.

Saul Marquez: [00:15:06] That be really great. No more donor waitlists.

Lisa Suennen: [00:15:09] Imagine if you could print about heart valves that fit properly. Amazing was made of natural material that would be amazing.

Saul Marquez: [00:15:17] Now our but super interesting definitely Lisa. The list goes on and on and what you do and so appreciate you kind of getting those little gems out to the listener.

Lisa Suennen: [00:15:25] Sure.

Saul Marquez: [00:15:26] All right. Getting to the end here what we're going to do Lisa is you and I. Let's just pretend we're building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in medicine. It's the 101 or the ABC is over. Lisa Suennen, it's a syllabus right now for questions lightning round style followed by the book that will add for our listeners. You ready. Yes. All right. So what's the best way to improve healthcare outcomes?.

Lisa Suennen: [00:15:51] Design products and services that really align particularly financial ones can focus deeply on the clinical side of that. I mean without clinical depth it doesn't go anywhere.

Saul Marquez: [00:16:03] What is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid.

Lisa Suennen: [00:16:06] Hiring weak people.

Saul Marquez: [00:16:08] Ooh, that's so great. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change.

Lisa Suennen: [00:16:14] Never stop learning. I mean I think you have to not believe your own B.S. You have to always assume other people are smarter and you have to like go seek out information all the time.

Saul Marquez: [00:16:23] What is one area of focus should drive everything else in your organization.

Lisa Suennen: [00:16:28] Creating value for patients.

Saul Marquez: [00:16:30] And finally. Lisa what book would you recommend to the listeners here on the syllabus.

Lisa Suennen: [00:16:34] Now in an age where data is becoming more and more important I love to recommend Moneyball. It is about baseball it has nothing to do with health care. Yeah. The analogies are terrific. I think the cleverness in which data was applied to make decisions about teams about strategy you know in a way that nobody really had written about before. It's funny as hell it's great.

Saul Marquez: [00:16:57] Lisa so I've seen the movie does it differ from the book much.

Lisa Suennen: [00:17:01] It's a lot more in-depth about how they use data. It's a lot more wonky in a way. Yeah but it's still absolutely fun to read apply. You know and I wasn't big baseball fans. I love it. Didn't know that about you very cool listeners so there you have it Moneyball along with the answers to this syllabus. You could find everything on the show notes. Just go to and you're going to be able to find everything that we just talked about today right there. So Lisa before we conclude I just invite you to share a closing thought with the guest and then the best way that they can get a hold of you or follow you.

Lisa Suennen: [00:17:41] The best way to follow me is at on my Website you can sign up for my blog. Or you can follow me on Twitter @venturevalkyrie and my closing thought is if you don't ask you don't get go out there in the world and ask for what you need you know find partnerships ask for help and ask for opportunity. It's amazing what you get when you ask.

Saul Marquez: [00:18:02] What a great message Lisa and listeners. Be sure to ask and again be sure to visit us at Let us know what you think. Lisa just want to say thank you so much once again for spending time with you.

Saul Marquez: [00:18:16] Thanks so much Saul.

: [00:18:20] Thanks for listening to the Outcomes Rocket podcast. Be sure to visit us on the web at for the show notes, resources, inspiration and so much more.

Recommended Book/s:

Moneyball: The Art of Winning an Unfair Game

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Outcomes Rocket Podcast - Lisa Suennen

Outcomes Rocket Podcast

Data Transparency with Vincent Keunen, CEO at Andaman7

: [00:00:01] Welcome to the outcomes rocket podcast where we inspire collaborative thinking, improved outcomes and business success with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders and influencers. And now your host, Saul Marquez

Saul Marquez: [00:00:19] Outcomes Rocket listeners welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders. I want to welcome you to go to That's where you can leave a rating and review for today's show or any show in particular if you like. Let us now give us some feedback. We're always looking for ways to make the show more productive to help you improve outcomes and reduce inefficiency. Without further ado I want to introduce our outstanding guest and a good friend of mine. Vincent Keunen, he's the founder and CEO at Andaman7. They're focused on using software to improve health care by providing innovative technologies. That's going to help really bring together the decision making support for the development of drugs as well as decision making support in the hospitals and so I want to introduce you guys to this wonderful man. He's been founder of several different startups. He's a serial entrepreneur very passionate healthcare. And so I want to open up the mic to you Vincent to fill in any of the gaps in that introduction that I may have missed. Welcome to the podcast.

Vincent Keunen: [00:01:28] Thank you. It's so great to talk to you. Yes I've been I'm a on engineer and I've been in the health sector for 20 years. I'm here in Benjamin Europe. So we did quite a few large scale projects here in Belgium around medical records around the secure exchange of medical information. And yet following problems with health in the family I decided to focus more on this and the months of the project which is both a social goal for patients and that we still need the revenues. It's been a big project and that's going to be revenue from the to be so pharma companies from hospitals and other actors in the health sector are.

Saul Marquez: [00:02:13] Fantastic. And and so why did you decide to get into healthcare to begin with.

Vincent Keunen: [00:02:18] Well when I was 18 and I had to decide between engineer oral medicine I finally chose to be a software engineer and buy some kind of we are turned around the life of or was developed for the medical service so connecting the dots as well. Guy you know.

Saul Marquez: [00:02:37] Absolutely. And you know Vincent one of the cool things that I love about just talking to leaders like you is that it's those philosophical beliefs that you have. And it's a decision that hey you know what. You could choose one or the other or you could choose both. And you know a lot of times people just say you've got to pick one or the other. But the true leaders in health care say you know I don't have to compromise. I choose both. And you chose both engineering and medicine and kudos to you for doing that.

Vincent Keunen: [00:03:05] Thank you very much.

Saul Marquez: [00:03:07] Absolutely. So tell us Vincent you've been through many ventures. You've done a lot for health care on the software side for medicine. What do you think every healthcare leader today should be thinking about and how's Andaman7 addressing this.

Vincent Keunen: [00:03:21] Well I think everybody in the health care should just think about the patients right because that's the only reason we're doing all of what we're doing to give a better health to everybody. And this by the way why the mission we chose Andaman7 so when the article 25 of the Human Rights Declaration which is that everybody has the right to good health and well-being for themselves and their family but I think that should be what everybody is doing it has scare me. On discovering new and drives being on and on caring for patients or being developing tools for doctors and patients which is what we're doing so and then Andaman7 we decided to build this tool which is free for every patient and it allows it to collect all of the health data on their smartphones. Right. Because the smartphone is the platform on the future. And you can do everything with your smartphone today except your medical information is up there. So that's the first go. We do we have to collect the data for the patients on the smartphone. And that is free and will always be free. But as the social part of the project but to be sustainable we want to have revenue and the revenues will come from hospitals doing homecare projects continuity of care but also pharma or research institutions that want to develop new drugs and that need to have to reach to the patients especially today with the cost of drugs going up with the cost of healthcare going up. So everybody needs to reduce the cost and the good way to do that is to prove real outcomes from the patients. More and more a lot going on before there is a need to get outcomes from the patients so you hear about terms like Real World Evidence patient reported outcomes. And that's exactly where we focus. So Andaman wants to be the broker to the patients and we do this with a very strict respect on the private and security you know we been in Europe. So privacy is very important here. And there's the big G.D.P. are coming up in May of the mixture giving back more power to the patients and to the citizens actually to know where is my data are being used for who is using it who is using it. So yes that's very privacy minded to with elements of it. There is no medical data stored in the cloud. Everything in the smartphone and all the smartphones of the people you trust. That's the core of the project out of it.

Saul Marquez: [00:05:51] Yeah and there's you know there's definitely a big need Vincent for just finding ways to use these devices and health care and had some recent conversations with a couple health systems and the thought here is that innovation in health care is really not only just innovation it's actually implementation. And so how do the businesses of today and tomorrow like yours implement these smart technologies in a way that is useful and scalable. You know like the things that you're doing are really interesting. Can you give us an example of how maybe early on you guys have created some outcomes improvement with what you're doing.

Vincent Keunen: [00:06:30] Yeah just just as a patient or helping a patient like my son who was diagnosed with cancer a few years ago said I've spent a lot of time in the hospitals and it was always very difficult for me to answer the questions from the doctors or to correctly write down what they were telling to me telling me. So the use of Andaman and now it makes that very easy. So read them I received permission I wore it and that meant either for me or for my children. And all of that information is shared with the people I trust. So obviously for my children the to shared with my wife. So she has a complete copy of the medical record of children. And every time she goes to the doctor she can end up with information and I will receive a copy of that. So we both have a copy of the whole information. And there was also shared with our doctors. So our our family doctor and our specialist they all have a copy of the full information from for example my child's has. So that's that's already a pretty big benefit having all of you and being able to share it. You're right. It's already to improve the outcome. Now there's also cost the patients way depending on where you live right in the U.S. yes private insurance in Europe it's more about the Social Security but the problems are the same. Because the cost of going up and there's a big need to reduce costs and a few months ago whether I was in a doctor's office because I be hired. I wanted to see that everything was OK. And the doctor told me you need to have a blood shots to be sure of your blood. And I said well I just had one month ago because my mom had leukemia and I am long been controlled every three months. She said yes. OK. Give it here. And I said yes it's in my smartphone. And I showed my smartphone with the doctor. I went through with a lot. That's when she's perfect. I can already tell you that it's good. You have no problem with your. And you don't need to have another blood shot. So that's good. Think for the instance of insurance first. And as a patient I was just having the results immediately without going to a blood test and then coming back to the doctor. Right. Which will take a few weeks at least there in 15 minutes side the results of all of their diagnostic. So that's very concrete very easy and very very good both for me and for the Social Security.

Saul Marquez: [00:08:59] I think that's really great. And you avoided an unnecessary test. You're able to form the doctor and become very very involved in your care.

Vincent Keunen: [00:09:07] Yes exactly. Patient empowerment is I think one of the great need of today especially because more and more people talk about health consumers right versus patients and of course it's it's a bit annoying maybe for doctors just patients coming in into a well I read on Wikipedia and I read on Google about this. So of course there is there's something wrong or not too very precise information on the Web. But for me it also shows that the patients really do care about a health of a lot more than before so that they want to know. So the search for the information you know about all that organic food focus for many people you know about that fitness focus that truly shows that patients want to take care of themselves well that they're really becoming healthy consumers. This as if patients.

Saul Marquez: [00:09:58] Now that's cool you know and Vinson one of the things that comes to mind too is you know some of the differences. There's a lot of similarities but also a lot of differences between health care in the states and then in Europe and in the States. It seems like many times there's not. You can't get your medical records right won't release it to you. And so it sounds like in Europe you're actually able to get your medical records.

Vincent Keunen: [00:10:21] Well yes and no or you know there's theory and practice that I'll get. I know that in the in the U.S. there is the constraint that goes to the meaningful use especially meaningful use 3 which which really put the patient in the center and the care providers do have to give the data to the patients according to meaningful use. 3 In Europe we also have European legislation that says that the data is the property of the patient so that patients can get their data they can correct it. They can ask a doctor to delete it even if they don't want to be related to that doctor anymore so that's very in favor of the patient. It's quite similar to the U.S. but this law in Europe has been there since 2002 to 15 years. But today in practice there are still a lot of resistance from some doctors or hospitals or other actors to give away the information because it takes time maybe because they don't have maybe down some fears also there. Transparency is good for the patient but sometimes it will be frightening for other factors. So I don't think there's a big difference between the U.S. and Europe. They both have very clear legislations but in practice it's difficult for both. Both areas I believe unfortunately.

Saul Marquez: [00:11:42] Yeah it is. And you know I'm I've spoken to people and you know I've seen different stories and posts about the difficulty and it'll be interesting to see how a platform like yours. You know maybe through the creation of demand make some change in the way of action right because of the laws there but how can we get the actions to follow what the law is saying should be done.

Vincent Keunen: [00:12:06] Yeah I agree. And I also believe that the pressure from patients will help. Hopefully it will have. And what I want to say also is that there are different kinds of doctors right. Some doctors are afraid of change and to be afraid of losing some kind of power. So there's some paternalism for some doctors but there's also a large number of doctors which are on the opposite side which are very open to the patient and really focus on the patients health and they know that the patient needs that they have empathy. And then when when they see them themselves as if I was the patient if I were a patient I would have made my day. I would want my days are there the stand. And there's also clinical studies today and research that proves that there is much much better outcomes to treatments when the patients are empowered when they know about their condition when they have all the details when they have their data. So it's now becoming even something that's necessary for doctors to do that if they want to cure their patients better than before. And I'm not even talking about personalized medicine because you know that for example up to that for a medication to be considered successful is to be effective. More than 30 percent of the patients right the placebo left when they were said to be better than a placebo. But nobody knows that if this medication which is only good for 25 percent which is too low maybe just 25 percent it's effective for 95 percent of people with that specific profile genetic profile or others. So I think we're missing a lot of treatments today because we don't go personalized enough. So that's the second big trend. First one I was mentioning earlier it has consumers. And the second one is specialized meeting and for that to be more personalized. Of course you need to have the genetic profile of the patients that you accept to a lot more information about the patient. So contacting the patient and exchanging data with a patient and collaborating with the patient will be more and more important. I love that in the past. So yeah I think that the patient role is getting more and more important especially for personalized needs to be effective.

Saul Marquez: [00:14:20] I think it's a great call out and your app would definitely help the patient be more proactive and put their data and own their data and be a part of the decision making and a part of the information flow. I think that's really cool. So Vincent tell us you've got obviously and I'm on seven is your current project and you're you're all in on that. You've had other projects in the past as well. Can you think back and all the way up to now an example of maybe a setback. You had a failure and what you learned from that.

Vincent Keunen: [00:14:51] Yes of course. One very clear to me was when I was doing that project about exchanging information medical information between people and doctors that was 15 years ago right. There was barely the beginning of internet or anything interesting here. And the obvious thing when you have several hospitals that are OK to this and then you have family doctors that use various types of software the obvious thing to do when you're a software engineer is they agree on a standard right for strangling the information. How do we call the information and then we discussed for about two years what the letter will be with us more this I want this one no this is an American and if not to the Europeans you know we don't use this one and it's been just terribly discussion until the day we decided as a company. OK let's have that discussion. You use whatever format you want as long as it's morning. And so we chose it between five and 10 core standards and. Then suddenly that project went home because of the post that uses the stand that they wanted and then suddenly doctors or so and then suddenly everything was the information was flowing with the way the cost to that because of the company we had to do the change of format ourselves. And we did that for the most popular form formats. But yes this is a good example where in theory it is very obvious that you should choose one the one single standard. But in practice it's unfortunately better if you just use some kind of a chaotic situation in the situation that is so that just one example that there's the others do not.

Saul Marquez: [00:16:32] That's great. Thanks for sharing that and CNN listeners you always have to keep your mind open. Oftentimes in fact I think most of the time the things that you try first are not going to work. You're going to have to keep an open mind and leave idealism to the side and get practical and what Vincent and his team did was they got practical and even though meant more work. It meant adoption and in order for your project to succeed you need it to be adopted. And so Vincent that's amazing lesson that you learned them and now I really appreciate you sharing that with them. So Vincent you've obviously had that and then maybe you could tell us a little bit more about an exciting focus or project that you're working on.

Vincent Keunen: [00:17:13] Well yes well the protests are the most exciting one is the global Andaman7 project because when when my I was lucky to sell my previous company and got people like that. I was wondering where will be by my next project. And then I decided to do this and then project. And I wanted it to be big or nothing. So it's really ambitious. Right. And the goal is to really build a platform to give access to patients to as actors so be them. Hospitals doctors on the cure side but also also nurses of course. And then on the research side pharma companies or institutions all of those actors need more and more access to patients today because there is no unique standard. We were talking a bit earlier but because those smartphones are becoming ubiquitous so there's quite a number of deep changes in the landscape meaning that now there is a way I believe to have every patient strongly empowered with a smartphone or they're accessible to them and then we can then provide services on top of that Vandeman is not like it may it may seem from the outside. The simple app it's actually a combination of a map of course for both smartphone Andrroid and Apple but also tablets. But more importantly maybe what we call hip and hip for us is the health intermediation platform. It's a way to exchange data either between them and to then users or through API open API which we publish on our Web site to have an exchange of data between patients and the hospitals. Pharma company will see our role in clinical research immunizations or any kind of actor in the ad sector with a specific focus or yell with one very important thing for us is that the patient is in control the patient has access to their data and they're deciding what to do with it. And I think they're going to be treated well because the regulations both in Europe and in the U.S. always put constraints on everybody that is using data from somebody else. Right. So if you're a hospital or a doctor and there is or Hamma or research institutes you as constraints because you're using the data from patients. But as a patient you have access to all of your data and you can do whatever you want. And then it will be a good idea. But if you want you can put your hands together on the page. Nobody can prevent you from inside. They may not the best idea you have it right. So what that means is that the regulation is impeding most of the actors but when the patient is even the opposite the regulation is has been the patient has been deficient get access to their data and being in control of their data. But that's what we decided to do is to go through the patients. It's more difficult of course to convince millions of patients than to go to a few hundred hospitals. It's more difficult but it I think is the right way to do and it's the way that most people will be comfortable with because they decide to share the data and not all of the data that can decide what they share and they want to know why this year. And there's been studies. Right. With patients that were the one to show you if it's for specific research for kind of medication that would be useful. Yes of course I went to thing 85 percent of patients do that for me or so that's very clear. I'm very I insist a lot on my privacy and I'm not I'm not read that anybody with you and me or my medical data but if somebody is even a pharma company is it me. Would you share your desire for a new pill that we're working on that it's like cure leukemia which is the leukemi. I have. Of course I would be. I would agree to share. Right. Same for my son. Wait. As coma bone cancer but some company. We would like to have you want to feed the research on a new medication for that kind of condition that we shouldn't be. Right. Right. Right. You know why you share. I think patients who are ready to share and do good actually.

Saul Marquez: [00:21:29] Now I think that's really great. You know and what comes to mind is the you know like the 23 and me when you get the test they got the 23 and we and it's that sharing platform. Yeah I think that's when you know that it's going for a good cause. I think the majority like you said would say yes. Exactly. Now that's really interesting. So Vincent let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful today. It's the one on the ABC of Vincent. And so we're going to write out a syllabus. There's four questions. It's going to be lightning round style say you know give me some quick responses to these and then we're going to finish with your all time favorite book for the listeners. You ready.

Vincent Keunen: [00:22:12] Well time to rethink how we think about it and should ask me anything to prepare.

Saul Marquez: [00:22:18] And maybe maybe it will be just an applicable book for the syllabus that we're creating here.

Saul Marquez: [00:22:24] Ok. So what is the best way to improve health care outcomes.

Vincent Keunen: [00:22:29] Patients. There.

Saul Marquez: [00:22:31] What is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid.

Vincent Keunen: [00:22:34] Only focus on the financial aspects has aspects has to come first and then the financial aspect.

Saul Marquez: [00:22:40] How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change.

Vincent Keunen: [00:22:44] Well change also you need to improve. You need to innovate you need to look at what others do and then keep on working to build new things.

Saul Marquez: [00:22:52] What is one area of focus that should drive everything in the organization.

Vincent Keunen: [00:22:57] If were talking about the health sector I think it's important that the patients wellness and patients health.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:03] Awesome. And finally Vincent What would you say the book that you add to the syllabus for the listeners.

Vincent Keunen: [00:23:09] Well the book you would mention is maybe the bit unusual it's not a bit of a battle of the choices or how to succeed or saw. I read a book about the heart from the Heart Institute about Project Viren and the proposal by that. Because it's a book that tells you the science between stress and pain and new ways to fight stress like meditation if you want. Are you worried about mindfulness. So the cardiac coherence and the heart laugh Institute has published that book that I think is the theory. It has been useful for me to control my stress during my period because I'm sitting here not a piece of cake usually right. And so yeah it wasn't very practical and at the same time it was very focused on well-being. And there was some science behind it. So I like the combination of these three.

Saul Marquez: [00:24:08] And what's the name of the book, Vincent.

Vincent Keunen: [00:24:09] So I think in English heart intelligence by the Heartmath Institute.

Saul Marquez: [00:24:15] Okay Heart Intelligence. No, it sounds great. we'll do is we'll dive into it get the actual book in link and so listeners don't worry about writing it down. Just go to outcomes rocket dot com slash Vincent and you're going to be able to find all of the show notes as well as the syllabus that we created for you right now and the book that was just recommended. Vincent, time flies when you're having fun. We're here to the end. And so I wanted to just ask that you share one closing thought with the listeners and then the best place where they could get hold of you.

Vincent Keunen: [00:24:49] Okay well thank you for the interview so to contact me go to Andaman7 website or you can send me an email on feel free to contact me. And yes my closing would be just Article 25 of the Human Rights Declaration. Everyone has a right to good health andwell-beingg for themselves and their family.

Saul Marquez: [00:25:13] That's outstanding. Vince and I know that you guys are going to do a phenomenal job with this platform and I'm just looking forward to staying in touch with you.

Vincent Keunen: [00:25:21] Thank you, Saul, thank you for your time and thank you for interviewing me. Thank you.

: [00:25:29] Thanks for listening to the outcomes Rockett podcast. Be sure to visit us on the web at for the show notes, resources, inspiration and so much more.

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Full Podcast Transcript

How Health Leaders can Empower Physicians and Increase Work Satisfaction without Experiencing Burnout with Stephanie Hartselle, Founder and Owner of Hartselle and Associates

: [00:00:01] Welcome to the outcomes rocket podcast where we inspire collaborative thinking improved outcomes and business success with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders and influencers. And now your host Saul Marquez

Saul Marquez: [00:00:19] Rocket listeners welcome back once again to the outcomes Rocket really appreciate you tuning in.

Saul Marquez: [00:00:24] This is where we chat with today's most inspiring and successful healthcare leaders. And you're tuning into yet another awesome show. If you like what you're hearing in the previous episodes or what you're about to hear now with my awesome guest go to outcomes where you could go and then I'll send you straight to our Apple podcasts reviews where you could subscribe. Leave a rating leave a review. This is how we grow the show. This is how we get feedback to make it better so that it serves you the listener. So without further ado. I want to welcome our guests. Her name is Dr. Stephanie Hartselle.

Saul Marquez: [00:00:59] She is the owner and founder of Hartselle and associates as well as a clinical assistant professor of psychiatry at Brown University. Dr. Hartselle welcome to the show.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:01:11] Thank you for having me.

Saul Marquez: [00:01:13] Absolutely. And so one of the things that I really wanted to do Dr. Hartzel is dive into this topic of health as well as sort of mental health as being part of it because a lot of times it gets left out of the equation or separated. Exactly yeah. And it's just like this different thing but yet it's part of the whole and so you I want to dive into that in today's show but I wanted to ask you first and foremost what got you into medicine.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:01:40] That's a great question. I wanted to be a doctor ever since I was little and throughout school I actually just kind of messed around wasn't very serious and was always sort of those that are writing and speaking. And I was at math science and I never knew a doctors and so I figured being a doctor was completely out and so wonder my way through high school, wonder my way through college really graduated poorly and was working as an orderly and emergency departments and I love that even though it was you know just really scrappy work but I still love that and all of a sudden realize oh no I want to I want to be a doctor and then have to go back and so I was working nights and then it actually and for a while taking medical classes that took me about four years and that actually got to do it in university.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:02:29] So I was thrilled. I actually thought I wanted to be an emergency doctor. That's why I knew then I figured out that what I loved about emergency was both psych and the trauma and I didn't want to be a trauma surgeon. And everyone said I'll talk to psychiatry and so I went ahead and become a psychiatrist.

Saul Marquez: [00:02:46] That's amazing. And it's so cool that you had this thought that you wanted to do it kind of hold the away and then all of a sudden here you are in the E.R. and it's just calling you and calling you and you just had to answer.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:02:57] It did. It was it was funny because I gotten home from night shift and called my parents at 7:00 in the morning and said I'm going to go to medical school.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:03:04] And you know my parents agreed that they had them right there. I said OK sure. Four years later you know that change is funny.

Saul Marquez: [00:03:15] And Dr. Odzala it's one of those things where it's like sometimes we don't choose medicine it chooses us right.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:03:22] I think it's also a great way for me to connect with some of my patients. I'm anxious.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:03:27] It is and our goal is to make this as any kind of piano or anything else. I've made our way through and I.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:03:35] Well actually yeah you know I had a really difficult to do anything backtrack and work hard for it you get there.

Saul Marquez: [00:03:47] That's pretty awesome. Yeah. What would you say Doctor Hartselle is a hot topic that should be every medical leaders agenda today. And what are you guys at your practice focused on in approaching.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:03:59] So I definitely think it's positioned right now. That is something that's all over. I think the general news is all over the medical news. We have an incredibly high suicide rate and physicians mostly because we don't miss almost everything she knows. Yes. Yes quotes But I think the most effective way to die.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:04:19] And I think they're a combination of factors that are going on but I think that the fact that these issues are dying and they're doing it by their own hand is something that needs attention. And I think it has so much to do with psychiatric health, mental health and physical wellness.

Saul Marquez: [00:04:34] So what do you think is a good way to deal with it. Yeah.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:04:39] Good question. So there's a combination of factors going on medical screening.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:04:45] So you know it's four years of college if you do it once or twice then you do it once it's four years of college four years of medical school at least three years of residency although most of us I did five most people do between five and after I have people from 11 years.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:05:02] And they get out and suddenly they're in these situations where they aren't in charge of patient care. And I think that can be really devastating. And so the person in charge of patient care is a system that will charge of patient care has changed into this kind of big box medicine. Now hospitals are having a private practice those are becoming big conglomerations becoming corporations. And if I want a giant box of cereal that will last me three months. I want to go to a big box store if I want my child to be treated really well for something that's happened to him. I want to go to physicians not burn them out and who's not being ruled and dictated by. I think that this is and it's medicine and I think that

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:05:39] As I think that's the real bait and switch for a lot of medical graduates and people who are mid career those the people who are killing and some of the highest rates.

Saul Marquez: [00:05:47] Now that's really interesting. And so you get through medical school you get through residency which could be very long and then you start practice and you realize oh my gosh I am not in control right.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:06:00] I'm not in control and I'm not able to actually do what I want to do which was treat patients well and actual care for them in a way that I think is useful to us.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:06:09] Instead you're often in clinic you're mandated to see 46 patients or more an hour. So you're running from the room.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:06:16] I don't know. This is more and more complex I wonder you are able to make any kind of sessions like during the 2000 - 4000 patients there or more. And there's just no way to treat human beings and their medical complexities. Well that way I think doctors become just hired and burned out. And it was worth it.

Saul Marquez: [00:06:36] Yeah it's definitely an issue. You know I mean you see it in their physician bloggers out there there's people just expressing their frustrations. And I do feel like there is this undertone of just I've had enough.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:06:49] Yes very much very exasperated a lot of people retiring early. And so to answer your question about how to how do we fix it.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:06:56] I think one really important ways to make room for potential leadership so is hospitals and the corporations to not just have a board of MBA.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:07:06] We're running a hospital series. The solution at any time is up to the leader. Yes gonna be carved out. One of the reasons I have now practice your own practice is you know how to treat patients.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:07:21] We're learning how to run the business end of things. You know that's a learning experience every single day. But I'd rather learn that than I have people who understand how to run business help me how to treat patients. And so I think that's one of the ways that we improve.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:07:34] I think they always start early and that's for training physicians to have them care cells how to stand up for themselves and how to make sure they're not psycho and feel like they have an ounce lot are trapped.

Saul Marquez: [00:07:46] Now that's a really good point and I do agree and just having spoken to many physicians physician leaders to you know just like this is a hot topic. Yes.

Saul Marquez: [00:07:55] This is a really hot topic and.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:07:57] Then it doesn't just affect doctors it affects it you know if you think about it's a tragedy to lose a human being suicide but one physician dying and he's lost.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:08:06] Now that doctor for thousands of physicians and even a family of her or him that's the connection that's so important and they've lost it. So this impacts not just the physicians and that impacts all of our patients.

Saul Marquez: [00:08:23] It sure does. Yeah the domino effect is without a doubt very serious. Can you give an example to the listeners. Dr. Hartselle of of how you and your practice or any other things that you may be involved with have created some results by doing things differently.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:08:40] Sure.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:08:41] And I can even tell you about how I was stuck in a box and after graduation I took a job as a medical director of one of the pediatric sites are here. It's one of the highest volumes surprisingly there are children in psychiatric crisis. And it was just it was a set up and it's like a hall and many many psych yards where the system has suddenly began yearly a patient or has increased and so

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:09:07] Hospitals do try their best. They try to cobble together teams to handle this but it's therapists and couples together. And I think you know I was stuck in a position where I wanted to be a physician leader I wanted to change decision but they're outside the resources at the time.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:09:23] And in some cases because it's mental health not the interest because mental health hurt certain areas of medicine so scary. And so I had to leave that area and open my own practice.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:09:33] And there were two things that had stuck with me and are in residency you know one was or thought that I would be able to care for patients in the way that I thought it could. And I learned later that that was not only possible in the system which it was working. The second was physicians come in and told us about how it was really important that after all these years of training as a psychic and just because there are so few of us in the country that we had a real charge to not only treat our individual nations but to also figure out a way to reach people across the country that after seven years of training and this much investment that we had to figure out a way to provide care to more people. So I think what you're doing with the show is really critical. So you are doing so well. Is it mandated that we do which is reach people everywhere and it's another thing that I've also tried to work on and so in addition to the private practice where I can or kind of rich people one to one I'm hoping to be able to bring videos about how to do some software for physicians and patients and be able to reach more people that way because there just aren't enough of us and be able to figure out a way to reach more people.

Saul Marquez: [00:10:35] That's outstanding and kudos to you Dr. Hartselle for saying you know what I want to make a bigger impact and I'm going to find a way to multiply myself and give these people that are looking for solutions for answers those answers and solutions.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:10:51] I'm hoping so.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:10:52] I really am because it's hard anyway to get in with a doctor regardless of where you are in the country to get in with a psychiatrist or child psychiatrist. It's almost impossible.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:11:02] And I want to make that mark.

Saul Marquez: [00:11:05] That's amazing. And so I really admire you for making that effort outside of all the things that you already have going on to say you know what I want to do something because this is my calling. Without a doubt it is your calling and I'm excited to see what you put out there.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:11:20] Thank you.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:11:20] I'm hoping it will be great. Really I'm working on both. First of all how to get physicians can and maybe step away from the larger big box medicine and produce their own practice that's driven by themselves and think those practices like Pamela Weible as someone who is a real leader in this area I don't know her personally. I have exchanged e-mails with her but she talks about general medicine and how to scape a general physician and open up your own practice for very little money and be able to treat patients the way you want to. I think she's another wonderful physician into but I think that it's really important and then secondly some of the videos and I'd like to share on sleep insomnia I think that affects so many people and so for patients to be able to work on their own sleep and work on our own anxieties.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:12:02] And that's where I'm aiming.

Saul Marquez: [00:12:04] We'll see how plastic. This is a truly exciting and it's so interesting because we went from an environment where physicians did you know they got out of medicine they hung their shingle and they practiced medicine and made to care of their patients.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:12:18] Stayed at home visits which I get to do. But yeah we're traditional old old world authors.

Saul Marquez: [00:12:24] And there's no reason why if that's what you want to do you can't.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:12:27] It's true. I think we're very indoctrinated funny word.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:12:31] But yeah we have these huge hospital systems and I think you know in certain industries first orthopedic cases that you have to have an OR you have large systems.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:12:43] But I think the general medicine is I think the NBN is fordable for patients and that helps you live a life worthwhile and helps your patients live better that that's absolutely rewarding thing that have seen the last few years was watching people get better and actually be able to not have to do therapy.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:13:08] Right.

Saul Marquez: [00:13:09] Now that's really interesting and I agree. And if you're a physician listening to this interview and you're just thinking to yourself wow she's so right. Why don't you think a little bit more about what you want to do and collaborate. Definitely the people that come on the show like Dr. Hartselle are looking to collaborate with other like minded individuals. You were dealing with big issues here and the more common minded people that we can get together to deal with them the better wouldn't you agree. Dr Hartselle

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:13:37] I absolutely agree and I'm happy to talk to anybody who has great ideas about this because I think it's so important.

Saul Marquez: [00:13:43] Absolutely so. You shared with us some some really cool things. Now let's take a look at the other side of the coin here. Can you share a time with the listeners when you've had a setback and something that you learned from that setback.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:13:55] Sure. So when I came straight out and was I just graduated from residency and was hired as the medical director I think I came into that system kind of guns blazing and had been trained for adult reasons yet all the hospital for those who are not in New York and I grew up in California didn't know what the hospital was and a lot of people who are older do. But it's one of the biggest psychiatric hospitals in the country is the oldest psychiatric hospital in the country and has hundreds of psychiatric beds and basically treats I think the most ill patients in the country if not the world. So it's why I chose to train. It's self-selecting.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:14:28] I love that place still and it is a place where you kind of have to fight to get what you need. And I came I think into the bound system. So with that attitude. And I think that coming into a medical director position it is still middle management and I think I came into meetings and systems and blazing.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:14:48] Why can't we change this. What's going on. I think now I would have tried to work with us live a little more even though it would have really been frustrating for me. So slowly but I think I could have made better change had them or patients in the system. And so if I continued in that position or if I may some day consults in that position again I think I'll be watching carefully and see how I approach the system and being more empathetic and listening more.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:15:13] I think talking less I think I really came out knowing what I wanted to do and not were to anybody else I think that's a that's a real problem.

Saul Marquez: [00:15:21] They learn that that is really interesting you know because across the country I mean it's not one size fits all right. Every system is going to be different. So what advice would you give to somebody leaving one system and going to another on how to make big impact and get what they need.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:15:40] I think for the first year that you leave the system then you go into another system.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:15:44] I think the first year and head down and listen.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:15:48] And also picture put your oxygen mask on yourself first. That's always a message to everyone is can't help anybody else.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:15:55] You are burned out tired to let yourself down listen and just go with the flow for the first year and then start.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:16:03] And certainly make a connection you see are moving in middle and then start to have the conversations and listen more than your like you. Now this is the. First. Time yourself when you figure out how to survive. This is something unsearchable.

Saul Marquez: [00:16:20] I love it that listeners put your oxygen mask on first because if your tank is empty there's no way you're going to be able to give. There's just no way you can't.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:16:29] It's the last thing that goes with most people is work. And for physicians especially if less so everything else their lives will fall apart.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:16:35] Families, their health the work will go last. So notice that because they will stop caring about what's going on a little more Brosnan's more every day.

Saul Marquez: [00:16:44] Yeah that's such a great message. Really great message. And so what would you say. Dr. Herd sell is one of your proudest medical leadership experiences to date.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:16:54] So in June I was awarded the Dean's excellency award for teaching and that of us.

Saul Marquez: [00:17:00] And congratulations.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:17:02] That was amazing just because it's an amazing award to get.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:17:04] But also my mother was a teacher and I remember watching her in the classroom and thinking Oh my goodness she works hard.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:17:12] I'm not doing our job. It's hard. I'm becoming a Doctor. I'm not kidding about that I really.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:17:17] To this day I watched teachers and I have two patients and I work so hard and in residency I had a wonderful resident mentor her name is Grace Henessy from an MBA degree in Tennessee she made me lead a group from the SBA with a group of men.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:17:36] It was incredibly squirrelly group and it was difficult. I remember trying to do it and coming to Dr. Henessy.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:17:42] I felt like that went horribly ignorant. So the fact is the Brownstein had a word.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:17:49] They were the ones who voted for has been in award with. Actually the proudest moment I've had in medical career

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:17:55] Besides getting getting into medical school, that was amazing. I was just I was just so proud of and so so happy about.

Saul Marquez: [00:18:02] Yeah you know and congratulations on that.

Saul Marquez: [00:18:04] And you know many of us in leadership positions in medicine oftentimes forget that hey we didn't get here alone we had teachers and we're standing on the shoulders of those that got us here. And so I think you bring up such a great point and thank a teacher today if you haven't thank your professor from 10 years ago or 20 years ago. If you're listening to this episode just send an e-mail to one of your previous teachers that made a difference today.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:18:31] I so agree I think about the fact that I took some of my classes at the community college and then orders for my finance classes and two of the best teachers I had and professor and I are getting there and they were amazing and I had so many mentor for me. I read it.

Saul Marquez: [00:18:49] Yeah. And what happens is it takes you back and it puts your roots back down and it makes you understand what your DNA is. It does. yYu're here because of that. So thank them and Dr. Hartselle, thank you for that because I'm going to do it as well as soon as our interviews over.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:19:05] I am, too. I am going to go right.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:19:08] Dr. Ruth Emerson and tell him thank you again.

Saul Marquez: [00:19:14] I love it. I think that's great. So listeners. Be sure to do that as well. You know great things and really great outcomes can often start with gratitude. And so it's an awesome thing. Let's all do it. So Dr. Hartselle, tell us a little bit more about an exciting project or focus that you're working on today.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:19:32] Sure.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:19:33] I have a great friend now and Yuri Tomikawa who know me a few years ago and had said that she was putting together some Web sites out there. And of course I was there as well as some recommended.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:19:47] And I said Hey I have a conversation. I realized what she was doing was. So needed because it was decided that it was all recommendations that it's. For

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:20:02] Psychiatrist. And she created the Zencare. So lucky to be a part of it. Now about her visor on it do it because I believe on it..

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:20:14] You see she interviews therapists she has this great job a head shots and videos of therapists

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:20:23] We interview couples the therapists and physicians and we make sure that we're creating a space for people to reliably find someone and make it so hard to reach out for help. And so I think it's a video of someone who has been vetted by several people and at least makes a certain level of excellence. And if anybody thinks that's most helpful thing therapy and then she has some amazing things. Every time I forget people I talk about it in different cities and good at it.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:21:03] And everyone says well when is this coming to D.C. when they are Vermont or when's it coming in Chicago. Yeah.

Saul Marquez: [00:21:10] Doctor it's so I had the chance to meet with Yuri here on the show as well and it was just a wonderful person to speak with and has a strong vision that we said you know what you have the not that Uber put the lift of mental health does you really really does I think anything.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:21:27] She has a concept like really the Stenzel areas in medicine and generally but you really this is such an important thing and her own personal during her honesty and that is why she likes this project they really think and are so proud of her. I'm so proud to be a part of that.

Saul Marquez: [00:21:45] That's pretty awesome. Yeah it's super exciting and for the listeners who haven't taken a listen to that podcast go to that's y-u-r-i. I know you'll be able to hear our conversation with her and the cool things that Dr. heart cell and Yuri are working on through zencare. So, Dr. Hartselle, let's pretend that you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in medicine today. It's the 101 course or the ABC of Dr. Stephanie Hartselle. We're going to build a syllabus here for questions lightning round. We're going to finish with a book that you recommend to the listeners you ready. I'm ready. All right. So what would you say the best way to improve healthcare outcomes is.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:22:26] I think take care of your providers first for making sure that they know how to figure out what is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:22:35] I think branding medicine as glamorous medicine is not a cause in any kind of machine. We're not a treadmill. Make sure that you are not since you need any other kind of operation that has priority number one all the time for employees and also they also have

Saul Marquez: [00:22:58] A strong message. How do you stay relevant as an organization.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:01] Despite constant change.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:23:03] I think you really do need to keep up with what's going on.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:23:05] I think there's a certain amount of social media and news that well over in terms of putting your own oxygen mask on.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:23:12] I think there's with that small steps you need to make sure you have your finger on the pulse.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:23:16] But for things to take way that I think you in half an hour understand what the trends are right now.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:25] What is one area of focus that should drive all else in your organization.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:23:30] Always always always patients first always.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:23:33] That is of course the caveat that you are in yourself are healthy and it is making sure that whatever you are doing, have the patient in mind and that's the bottom line and things will fall into place.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:44] Love it. What book would you recommend to our listeners.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:47] Dr. Hartselle.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:23:48] This year I read getting things done by David Allen and I really enjoyed it and really talked about prioritizing and I think it's a stand for everything else static.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:56] That's wonderful.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:56] And so to the listeners everything that we've talked about here all of the pearls of wisdom that Dr. Hartselle has shared the book her website the things that she's up to the show notes you could find those at

Saul Marquez: [00:24:12] That's H A R T S E L L E.

Saul Marquez: [00:24:16] So don't worry about writing them down. You could just go ahead and check it out on line. So before we conclude Dr. Hartselle I like to just ask you to share one closing thought and then the best place for the listeners to get ahold of you.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:24:28] Sure.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:24:28] So I think my closing thought would be for medical providers so that anybody in medicine physicians or nurses anybody providing healthcare to others.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:24:38] If you are burned out if you are struggling and feel like you have no work is.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:24:44] More than anything else.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:24:46] What we do as all the rules and there are places where if you are not going right and you have nowhere to go. My cell phone is on my Web site. I'm not kidding.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:24:58] It's all on there all the time and it's with me all the time and we will try to figure something out. We've got nowhere else.

Saul Marquez: [00:25:08] Such a wonderful message Dr. Hartselle and the listeners just know you know you're definitely not alone and if you do find yourself in that place and you can't reach your oxygen mask. You just can't do it on your own. Go to and you'll find the best way to get ahold of Dr. Hartselle there if you need her answer. Doctor thank you so much for spending time today. It's been so much fun. And really looking forward to seeing the awesome things that you do with the videos.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:25:39] I was really excited to be here.

Stephanie Hartselle: [00:25:40] I really appreciate you for having me.

Outro: [00:25:46] Thanks for listening to the outcomes rocket podcast. Be sure to visit us on the web at dot for the show notes, resources, inspiration, and so much more.

Recommended Book/s:

Getting Things Done: The Art of Stress-Free Productivity

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Full Podcast Transcript

How to Transform Monitoring and Diagnostics with Voice-Based Technologies without Violating Privacy with Jim Harper, Co-founder and COO of Sonde Health

: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Outcomes Rocket cast where we inspire collaborative thinking improved outcomes and business success with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders and influencers. And now your host Saul Marquez

Saul Marquez: [00:00:19] Outcomes Rocket listeners, welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with today's most inspiring and successful healthcare leaders. If you like what you listen to today or you like what you listen to in general with the podcast, go to iTunes podcasts and give us a rating and a review and subscribe. We'd love to hear your feedback and always are looking for ways to do things better or keep doing things that you're enjoying on the show. So without further ado, I have an outstanding guest for you. His name is Jim Harper is the co-founder and chief operating officer at Sonde health. And so Jim has just a wealth of experience in this industry as an entrepreneur he's had an experience here at San health for the last almost three years but he's also been an entrepreneur in residence and also has a deep understanding of bioengineering systems. With his experience at MIT. So before I go into it any further I just want to give you a warm welcome Jim and open up the microphone to you.

Jim Harper: [00:01:22] Well thanks, Saul. And I think it's great to be a part of the conversation you've started on outcomes rocket and you know just a little bit of context for my background and why. As somebody has formally trained as a biochemist and with a long background in technology development that I'm so interested in health outcomes it's really started back with when I was studying neuroscience and looking at Alzheimer's disease and mechanisms. I realized that for me basic science and the big questions there had some limits and there were other big questions that I wanted to be able to answer. But we just couldn't we didn't have the information tools. So I've been really excited about both the drive to improve healthcare as well as the convergence of technologies that may help us do it. And so that's why I'm here.

Saul Marquez: [00:02:07] That's pretty awesome. And the meandering road of research and just biochemistry brought you here just to create a bridge to really fulfill that missing gap that you experienced.

Saul Marquez: [00:02:18] And Jim tell us a little bit about sonde health and what you guys do there.

Jim Harper: [00:02:22] Yeah so sonde health is a digital medicine company where we're developing voice based technology that has the potential to transform the way that mental and physical health is diagnosed and monitored. And I think our goal is really to be innovating at the intersection of voice interactive devices machine intelligence and AI systems and the overall healthcare system to enable what we call persistent health awareness. The technologies that are always sensitive and always secure. So we've been demonstrating that proprietary analytics that are running on devices that are already in almost every pocket and entering more homes every day have the potential to transform what are often imperceptible changes in the sound of our voice. So how we say something not what we are saying and transform those into objective and quantitative information about a range of important health states that affect the nervous muscular and respiratory systems and maybe even more.

Saul Marquez: [00:03:17] And so are you thinking like tonality things like that.

Jim Harper: [00:03:20] Yeah. So their speeches are a really interesting thing for a variety of reasons. One it's unique to humans and it's really the most complex thing we do it involves more active muscle groups operating at the same time than any other physical action that we do it involves large numbers of brain circuits kind of proportionally for actual areas of the brain to produce effective speech. And then it requires a healthy respiratory system to activate the source. And so what we're looking at are how changes in the physiology of those three major systems are reflected in acoustic changes. So back to your earlier point it can be changed in pitch slow changes in intensity changes in pacing of the speech and even more so. You know we can describe mathematically thousands of different low-level features that represent different aspects of those acoustics and only a subset of those are we seeing in our investigations very when the physiology of those systems change. And so finding those and appropriately weighting and combining those with the best analytical methods are we able to then get outputs from this voice analysis that correlate very well with existing best measures in health.

Saul Marquez: [00:04:37] That is super interesting and just to think that the technology necessary to do this is already in many of our pockets.

Jim Harper: [00:04:47] That's right. So you know I think the convergence that's happening we're all very aware and we've seen more of it every year. The computing power in our pockets exceeds what took us to the moon. And I think that just within the past year the explosion of voice services from Apple Amazon Samsung.

Jim Harper: [00:05:06] You know a range of people has shown that the underlying capability to analyze voice in real time exists at least with respect to analyzing the content of we say now we can argue about how you and what we're able to do with that so far. But I think the trajectory is universally seen as very positive and I think what we're trying to do is offer a new dimension of information beyond just the linguistic content that can help move these technologies from just menial assistance that automate things that we could already do to ourselves to provide more transformational capabilities that disrupt things like healthcare.

Saul Marquez: [00:05:43] This is interesting and Tommy. Jim what do you think around this topic should be you know just something that healthcare leaders should be focused on.

Jim Harper: [00:05:52] So being newer to healthcare right longtime and technology I've been talking to a lot of leaders in the space and going to a lot of places where they gather and I hear conversations about transitions from volume value-based care and moving from reactive to preventative patient management philosophies.

Jim Harper: [00:06:12] Yes but within that you know as I look at it with my system perspective what I see is a glaring lack of data on what is happening in our health day to day with a frequency that is sufficient to help us understand what does the transition from health to the disease look like and how can we measure it in a paradigm that isn't what we think of today as diagnostics. And so I think translating that into a different question is if we're going to seek better outcomes and in ways that are measurable what is it that's going to allow that measurement to be affordable and to understand how to quantify whether prevention is working.

Saul Marquez: [00:06:54] Yeah. And so the thing that comes to mind Jim is we've got these awesome technologies. How do we scale them? How do we make them available? What are your thoughts on that?

Jim Harper: [00:07:03] Yeah. And so for me right it started a number of years ago I was excited as everybody else thinking about the potential of wearables right to really address the gap in information and after wearing between 5 and 10 wearables at a time for a couple of years in a couple of conclusions and one is even for somebody as motivated as I am to understand the burden of operating what are otherwise simple devices is actually quite high and two the cost even if they are 100 dollars a person if you scale that to population scale health management it increases the cost of that at a time where it's really kind of addressing the unsustainable increase in the cost.

Jim Harper: [00:07:45] That is the driving motivation. So I just found those to be very inconsistent. And what I saw as the white space and I think pure tech you know when I joined them or was seeing the same opportunity. Is how do we eliminate the cost and the device burden and the user burden with collecting this information by enabling new analytical technologies on devices. People already know and so you look at the space and people have tried and I think successfully in some domains to utilize accelerometers or activity on the phone to get insights into behavior which is appropriate to behavioral health in some ways but to be really relevant we need what I think is the equivalent of the CBC or the blood panel you know how can we take single samples or small numbers of samples from people that don't require them to change their daily activities but derive a number of meaningful tests that give us the equivalent of a thermometer. Right. We don't have to have a true diagnostic but we need to understand better how to allocate scarce resources and costly resources to the patients that will actually benefit from that. And I think that's a sign the driving force behind why we make choices on the way to implement the technology. And I think the value propositions that we see most exciting emerging from it.

Saul Marquez: [00:09:01] Now the really interesting Jim and you bring up a good point right because I forget what the statistic is but the majority of healthcare is light comes from 5 percent of those in the system.

Saul Marquez: [00:09:11] And if you know if we could focus the devices on that small niche population that's causing most of the expense.

Saul Marquez: [00:09:20] Maybe that's where we start.

Jim Harper: [00:09:21] Now and I think you're right. So for things like wearables that I was talking about earlier where there is some cost into implementing the systems. That's absolutely right. There are best addressed to the sickest people in the system.

Jim Harper: [00:09:31] If what you're trying to do is not prevent healthcare transactions and not prevent costly care episodes which I think is implied by targeting those sickest individuals get us what we want to do is improve outcomes by helping people not to need that care in the first place or not to transition to disease. And I think the question is different and I think that's where the economy really changes and where passive technologies that essentially are free to implement derive their value from the utilization of the information and the services that they cue is Where I think I'm excited about the potential. It's a longer term potential to be sure. Yes, it's one where the time is now from a technology perspective. And I think that progressive leaders in healthcare who are really looking to create new models of care that are based on preventing disease are the kinds of partners that I think are ideal for this technology.

Saul Marquez: [00:10:26] It's really fascinating to hear a perspective on that Jim because yes, on the one hand, my approach with my suggestion was yes you know let's go to that population. Let's cross.

Saul Marquez: [00:10:36] But you're saying let's keep people out of the health care system let's keep them healthy through the use of technology.

Jim Harper: [00:10:42] Absolutely as a long term goal I think that's where we all want to be in terms of like the ultimate outcome is to prevent us from having to encounter the system and those costly ways.

Jim Harper: [00:10:51] Now in the road from here to there I think that there are several addressable places where we can begin that process and looking at kind of conditions that are traditionally difficult to diagnose that is heterogeneous in the kind of way that the disease manifests in individuals and have long lags between onset of disease and diagnosis.

Jim Harper: [00:11:14] Those are really interesting places to start using the technology that bridge kind of near term value propositions but also demonstrating the long-term potential of constant persistent health awareness to address needs. So a few examples. But I tend to think about. There are in neuroscience where a lot of the assessment and diagnosis today is heavily reliant on interactions in the clinical setting not just on diagnostic tests. So for Alzheimer's disease, Parkinson's disease, depression, those fall into this category. But it's stunning when you look at depression the diagnostic lag the time between the first episode of depression and when somebody actually engages the system in care is on average around four years. So when we talk about taking bergan out of the system and improving outcomes if we can do something to reduce that lag and reduce the number of episodes I think we're doing something very meaningful that's addressable a really good example right in Alzheimer's. Those kinds of numbers and diagnostic lag from first onset of cognitive impairment may be on the order of 1 to 1 and a half years in Parkinson's it's more like a year. It's a process of ruling out a lot of other things that take a lot of time and burden. If we have objective measures that can help winnow down and narrow those they don't have to be the diagnostics themselves to have significant value and improving outcomes.

Saul Marquez: [00:12:40] Really really interesting yeah it's a good distinction that you made there. Jim So would you give us an example of what you've done there at Sonde health to apply some of these ideas to do things differently and better outcomes.

Jim Harper: [00:12:54] Yeah so let's talk a little bit about the work we've done in depression so far. So if we look at screening for depression the United States Preventative Services Task Force last year put out two recommendations that suggest that all adults and adolescents in the United States be screened at least once a year for depression in recognition of the burden associated with untreated disease.

Jim Harper: [00:13:16] But if you look at the latest Ambulatory Care Survey the number of individuals who are actually being screened is around four point two percent. So we have you know a 96 percent addressable market there in terms of people who aren't being captured by the existing screen. There are a lot of reasons for that but we feel like and I love your conversations with other people about access to care because access to something like that screen is a big part of that. And one question we have is why does not screen in satisfying that necessarily have to be in the care event or the visit to the primary care physician. Why can't it be done in close coordination with it. So the 9 is the most common instrument that is used it's a 10 question questionnaire and you answer multiple choice depending on the severity of how you've experienced symptoms over the last couple of weeks. You some the score and then over a number of studies they validated threshold score of 10 or more. That indicates moderate to severe risk for depression. So in practice that's the most commonly used screen. What we've been doing is doing studies where we offer our research tool which is an app that's on iOS and Android phones asked people to provide basic voice samples so these can be as simple as repeating ah for five seconds or something like Potapov like a product which is called a diode kinetic pasque. We're just getting voice samples. We may ask them to read a sentence or just give us a prompt in speech.

Jim Harper: [00:14:47] Then we ask them to complete the pH Q9 which gives us the training reference and what we have seen is in thousands of subjects. Now to date who have completed this study with us that we can take as little as 10 seconds of speech and derive the vocal biomarkers create models that predict the pH Q9 score that agrees a high percentage of the time. So now instead of requiring people to recall their symptoms sometimes, that's imperfect or complete the questionnaire. Now we have something that's consistent with a quick voice sample. Yes. They even pass it right. So being able to listen and derive those features. Now I want to be really careful when I introduce that that's not what we're doing today. We're being very careful because we understand. Right. And I have the same concerns. There's a lot of privacy and security concerns around this kind of monitoring. And so it's really important to us that before we try to present that kind of technology that we ensure that it is capable of being always sensing always secure. And there's a number of things that have to happen there in terms of using the right kind of linkage and biometrics to say the individual speaking as somebody who's consented to that measure. So those are misused and also making sure that the accuracy has been validated rigorously scientifically so that any answers we provide are no.

Saul Marquez: [00:16:09] Jim that's really interesting. And then the other idea here is OK so we've got the power of this sensing technology the voice biomarkers maybe we even use the power of the pen and prescribe spot checking for this maybe a couple of times a week.

Jim Harper: [00:16:24] It's possible you know and I think what we envision great and I think really what's possible with the technology has provided that we address the privacy and security concerns adequately is a world where your Siri your Alecks your you know all of these voice interact and substance instead of waking up to a keyword they could actually wake up to a health condition like the onset of depression or the onset of Alzheimer's disease. And cue you encourage you to interact with the healthcare system in appropriate ways so we don't see that as in any way replacing the doctor. But the goal for us and I think a really interesting question as we try to drive better outcomes is how do we change the equation from requiring that patients know when and how to seek care and make it possible for care to effectively seek those patients.

Saul Marquez: [00:17:18] So let me ask you, Jim. Who are you looking to interact with? I mean you've got a big project on your hands. Who are you looking to interact with to make this happen? Because it sounds like a really great idea.

Jim Harper: [00:17:30] So I think around depression screening for example if we are working and having conversations with integrated delivery systems that are trying to integrate behavioral health into primary care in meaningful ways. And I think implementing this kind of system at the beginning first through the pH Q9 but ultimately with an eye toward augmenting and then replacing when validated with the voice system we learn together about how to provide access to patients in meaningful ways to screening. And for us too there's an added kind of motivation that the information and the screening by itself is not necessarily the whole story but it creates the opportunity for new timely feedback loops in care. I think all of us have experienced you know you go you get a prescription you go home. But the follow up and the feedback is often difficult and challenging the system and here there's an opportunity if somebody screens with mild risk of depression cognitive behavioral therapies other things that can increase access to appropriate care and be delivered on the same platform now become really interesting and meaningful opportunities to explore with partners who are trying to improve persistence.

Saul Marquez: [00:18:43] Interesting yes. So to the listeners if you're looking for a new way or are just another partner to help in your efforts in this area. By all means, consider Jim and his team at sonde health to create that part of the reason we created outcomes rocket is to help break down those silos and give you access to people thinking about ways to improve healthcare and improve the collaboration that that happens within this space. Jim thanks for sharing that. Sure. So tell us about an exciting project or focus that you're working on today now.

Jim Harper: [00:19:17] So I think one of the exciting things we are doing is what I was describing it is really moving beyond the cued kind of samples that we're talking about and building in the features necessary to listen.

Jim Harper: [00:19:32] On health we like to say your health speaks and who want to listen. And so the other projects that are exciting are partnerships with healthcare organizations that have a large number of people with a range of diverse conditions and to be able to discover together new vocal biomarkers so who we are working both with pharma companies as well as academic researchers looked at local biomarkers and a range of other conditions.

Jim Harper: [00:20:02] So I mentioned Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease not by accident or efforts that are beginning there.

Jim Harper: [00:20:09] And I think we the exciting thing to me about this vocal source is that we want people to bring us their problem I think there's a lot of ways for creative data analysis to happen and the burden of implementing the system is so low that there are great opportunities.

Saul Marquez: [00:20:25] I'm just curious and thank you for sharing that Jim about vocal biomarkers. I mean how do you determine that in a nutshell. Like for somebody, it doesn't know the power of that. Maybe you can give us like the 101 here.

Jim Harper: [00:20:37] Yeah. So I do that or use biomarkers intentionally by analogy to what we traditionally look at as follicular biomarkers that we will analyze in blood or saliva or genetic biomarkers of disease risk.

Jim Harper: [00:20:51] I think in very similar ways we are seeing these subtle changes in the voice that we can measure quantitatively objectively have a similar predictive value in terms of the presence of a condition and or potential progression of the disease. So we perform and we look at the science in doing studies in the same way we look at large numbers of population individuals with and without a condition to correlate these specific acoustic features to the presence of that condition. So each one of these low-level features then become independent biomarkers that we can combine to achieve different predictive outputs.

Saul Marquez: [00:21:31] That's fascinating and kudos to you guys for just being able to decipher those specific markers that are indicators of disease or depression. I'm really intrigued by it. I think I'll definitely be taking a deeper dive into the understanding of this area and I encourage anybody else listening to this podcast to start thinking about the feasibility of taking the voice recognition as part of the healthcare put in your health care tool just because it's definitely something that is starting to become more commonplace. Jim, we're at the part of the show where we do the lightning round so it's a medical leadership course we're going to build the syllabus it's the 101 course or the ABC. On health care with Jim Harper and so I like to write out the syllabus with you four questions and then we'll follow up with a book that you recommend to the listeners. Sure. All right. What is the best way to improve healthcare outcomes?

Jim Harper: [00:22:27] I think one of the best ways to improve healthcare outcomes is to understand how health is changing with better information from the patient side not just from the by-products of care.

Saul Marquez: [00:22:38] What is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid.

Jim Harper: [00:22:40] I think the biggest pitfall to avoid and this is on my side as well as the healthcare side is believing that technology in itself is the solution to the problem. We need to be improving the relationships between individuals and the providers and the way to navigate the system.

Jim Harper: [00:22:57] And I think that voices is a great way to do it.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:02] How do you stay relevant as an organisation.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:04] Despite constant change.

Jim Harper: [00:23:06] I think that you stay relevant by trying to as Wayne Gretzky said skate to where the puck is going to be not where it has been so far but you try to anticipate the change in what consumers are learning to use and demand from other industries and how that may impact the healthcare industry.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:26] What is the one area of focus that should drive all else in the organization.

Jim Harper: [00:23:31] I think that the area of focus needs to drive us is improving the experience for the patients ultimately.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:39] And finally what book would you recommend to our listeners to read.

Jim Harper: [00:23:42] Yeah so in a funny way I am I'm a huge science fiction fan and although it doesn't seem like an obvious choice I think Ender's Game is a very interesting read and partly for me.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:56] I've seen the movie.

Jim Harper: [00:23:57] Yeah so I think the movie is good but one of the things that the movie doesn't emphasize is the role of ai Ender's Game has kind of a great character and relationship between ai and the main protagonist that's mediated by a device in New York called the jewel which is very much like a future version and that's why it's all of our intelligent voice assistance wannabe. And I think that in that dynamic we'll learn a lot about how seamlessly technology can integrate into the device and the more you reduce the friction to access information the more meaningful it is. So for me a lot of the takeaways and what I want my technology.

Jim Harper: [00:24:40] And what I think all to look like is that ever-present good in a true sense kind of advocate in your ear. So hopefully that's inspiring to some.

Saul Marquez: [00:24:49] Now I love that Ender's Game and so outcomes rocket listeners take note of these things. And the beauty of it is you don't have to take note.

Saul Marquez: [00:24:57] Go to's jimharper and you'll be able to see all of the show notes with the just links to the book that Jim recommended as well as links to his company and all the things that they've done. Check it out. Don't worry about taking note if you're driving running. That's the beauty of the podcast and the notes so be sure to check that out at Jim, before we conclude I just want to ask you to share a closing thought and then the best way that the listeners can get a hold of you.

Jim Harper: [00:25:32] Yeah. So who a closing thought. I think that the hardest things to do are often the most worthwhile so as difficult as it is to change and improve outcomes I think it's something we all want to do.

Jim Harper: [00:25:43] And if you want to talk to me about ways to do that you can always email me at

Saul Marquez: [00:25:51] Outstanding. Jim thank you so much. Looking forward to staying in touch with you.

Jim Harper: [00:25:54] I appreciate it.

Jim Harper: [00:25:55] Thank you very much.

: [00:26:00] Thanks for listening to the Outcomes Rocket podcast. Be sure to visit us on the web at for the show notes, resources, inspiration, and so much more.

Recommended Book/s:

Ender's Game

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Full Podcast Transcript

How Second Opinions can Improve Care without Increasing Costs with Michael Yuz, CEO & Founder @ / USARAD Holdings Inc

: [00:00:01] Welcome to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we inspire collaborative thinking improved outcomes and business success with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders and influencers. And now your host Saul Marquez

Saul Marquez: [00:00:18] Welcome rocket listeners welcome back once again to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders. Do you love what you heard today or in general. I always ask. Go to iTunes subscribe and leave us a rating and review. We'd love to hear our listeners feedback. That's how we create content that's relevant to you and that's how we make sure that we're always putting the things that resonate with you to help you improve outcomes and decrease efficiency. So without further ado, I want to welcome our outstanding guest today. His name is Dr. Michael Yuz. He is the founder and CEO of USA RAD Holdings Incorporated as well as second Dr. Yuz has been in the business for quite some time. Traditionally trained as a radiologist he got into the entrepreneurial space and hasn't looked back and has been providing services to help healthcare providers deliver the best care possible. So really we want to welcome you Mike to the show.

Michael Yuz: [00:01:23] Thank you. Saul, I'm very honored to be on your show.

Saul Marquez: [00:01:26] Absolutely. So what is it that got you into the medical sector, to begin with, Mike.

Michael Yuz: [00:01:30] Well actually first I was an entrepreneur. I was on my first business venture.

Michael Yuz: [00:01:36] At age 14 and I never said I never wanted to get first to be a physician. My parents are not physicians. I don't have any ancestors or relatives or physicians. And I was very much into internet and computers. As a teenager, I started my venture in teenage years and I thought I wasn't going to be and you know we made in the technology business space but I actually match radiologist when I was 17 18 years old. I was accepted into my bachelor's and master's degree master's program for computer engineering. And I met a radiologist and she changed my mind. And the reason just remind me is I saw the student analogy was that we utilized back in the late 80s I was sleeping the hard copies and make something out of my head, I said look, this is going to be it will be a real illusion. Everything dies. And I told you know when I actually it's time when I met my current wife and we've been together for about 25 years. And she still reminds me every chance she gets. I told her look, I'm going to be sitting on the beach one day reading radiologist studies. I told them I was 18 and that was probably one of them a turning point why I wanted to go into a healthcare. And it was back then I knew I'm going to be a radiologist and also I'm you will be I'm going to be running some kind of a telehealthcare or telemedicine business so that's what had happened.

Saul Marquez: [00:03:11] Man that's super interesting Mike and what I love about your story highlights the power of a conversation. The power of that conversation. Your conversation with this gentleman that sort of tipped the scales and got you to focus on radiology for several years of your life. You know the power of a conversation when we talk to our customers or we talk to our patients. The power of a conversation is oftentimes underrated and that's where big movements for big things start including improving outcomes and so loved your story. Mike and I'm really glad that you shared it because it really highlights that important fact.

Michael Yuz: [00:03:46] Thank you, Saul. Yeah sometimes power for you. Few words that could be incredibly strong and can change the opinion of not just one person. Like in my case you could change the opinions of millions or even billions of people.

Saul Marquez: [00:04:01] Totally totally. So, Mike, you've been in the business and you've been on the provider side as well as the business side of health care for quite some time. What do you think a hot topic that should be on every medical leader's agenda today and how are you guys addressing it at USA rad and your other business.

Michael Yuz: [00:04:18] I think it's all about improving quality affordable healthcare and lowering costs and took power away.

Michael Yuz: [00:04:26] You can do this. You can do is more power to you. I mean there are many ways to skin a cat but that's really the big topic nowadays.

Saul Marquez: [00:04:34] Yes. So give us an example Mike how have you guys done that let's just say for instance at

Michael Yuz: [00:04:47] Right so we can we sort of Holdings consists of two divisions.I started the division in 2008 and I am of the second opinion as telemedicine division. Just about four years ago and the way we do is until geology is right technology. So it's all about automation. So, for example, our business model is actually a lot of moving parts of a company. It's pretty simple. Now we get images and we just get into the right radiologist we always provide reports and then the records and the reports transmitted to the customers and then of course patients go and access those records as well. So we haven't. Oh, wait might get like a clock formation. There are multiples so special to geologists. We have a lot of Tooryalai is when you're on the clock. And each case is rounded with the proper radiologist. And it's sort of like to compare it to an older model in a way. Yes. The way we work internally the first three hours is available who's available will do the report will do the case. And that way we also improve turnaround time. So by introducing automation by improving turnaround time and making radiologists more efficient you know we are lower cost efficiency significantly but we also are adding another element to technology which is artificial intelligence and that's a very hot topic right now and radiology is really in the center which is just artificial intelligence and an amazing element of automation because it makes reality is even more efficient and more accurate.

Michael Yuz: [00:06:19] So this is really exciting what's happening know in healthcare and I'm so glad I made a decision in the 80s you know when I chose to be in this profession and I don't regret for sure because radiologist is always an image. Now the second part of it is second opinions and it's really the way we build our second opinion services is really modeled after the entire service. So, of course, we have 4000 physicians in every specialty especially some in America who are available on demand. Again the same idea you know by making them more efficient. They can do more cases. It lowers costs. We can actually lower the cost to our customers. And we've always been it's always been about high quality. We turn around time and lower cost competition and that's how we stay ahead of the game because if you do two or three it's not good enough for me. You have quality turnaround time. And of course the price.

Saul Marquez: [00:07:16] Now that's really interesting and so this second opinions Tom. Mike is this intended for the consumer of the services or is it something that that health systems use as well.

Michael Yuz: [00:07:27] Yeah great question. So when we started my goal was to bring this service to millions even billions of people around the world. So the way we build the model was actually consumer based but then, of course, we have many requests. We were raised by businesses by third-party resellers by institutions insurance companies, yeah attornies as well but we were very careful with that.

Saul Marquez: [00:07:57] You know I actually said employers and yes I know are not attorneys.

Michael Yuz: [00:08:06] They were asked to turn away a bunch of them because we have to be careful.

Michael Yuz: [00:08:10] But I think that this statistically number two reason why people browse the internet is to get really the second opinion online. When I get to the number one reason. And number two reason is really healthcare related resources. In addition, they want to get a second opinion.

Michael Yuz: [00:08:29] So it was billed as a consumer model and then we now technology to any third party resellers insurance companies, brokers whoever is institutes can use the service.

Saul Marquez: [00:08:44] Very interesting. And I think I don't remember the stats on this. Maybe you know them better than I do Mike but around the second opinions and you know the first one potentially hey you may not need a procedure.

: [00:08:55] So the several are probably two or three main reasons why people get a second opinion, of course, is only for surgery and those with a serious condition such as cancer.

Michael Yuz: [00:09:07] And of course if the doctor is in surgery. So from the cases that we were evaluated approximately at least 50 percent of the time, the surgery can be postponed or patient can be treated with conservative management or just medication or other less invasive options. So it's my modeling and this is really what to resolve in tremendous savings. You know imagine death you know if you do you know do surgeries I recommended and the surgery can be fifty to hundred thousand dollars. If we prevent even 10 percent of the surgeries from say and given a system my millions and millions of dollars.

Saul Marquez: [00:09:44] Oh yeah I would say even billions for the system. Right. Exactly. And my thought here Mike is if you're a large company that manages to 3-4000 employees and you notice that the cost of your health care seems to be going up year over year double digits is frankly what I'm what I'm hearing out there. Just a service like second opinions as a requirement for your people to actually evaluate before they just jump into the surgery can result in lower premiums and really just overall better outcomes.

Saul Marquez: [00:10:18] Surgery can be avoided that's not necessary.

Michael Yuz: [00:10:20] Absolutely, Saul. That extensive several extensive studies really. And one of the major institution I will not name those specific institutions.

Michael Yuz: [00:10:29] Several months ago they release a data and they found that 85 percent of kids that reviewed for a second opinion change the course significantly for their patient with memories. So this is not necessarily a day surgery but it could be no different treatment. Patient has been misdiagnosed and had a totally different condition and he was treated for. I mean it's mind-boggling. Eighty-five percent of patients may have a wrong diagnosis or wrong treatment or treatment as too aggressive or maybe treatment is not aggressive. You know some people may have cancer for example which are not diagnosed so it's just it's mind-boggling. So although power and indifference we can manage for so many people.

Saul Marquez: [00:11:12] Yeah for sure. I love this. You know and it's all about being thoughtful about the approach. And it sounds like your business. Second opinions really help people be that much more thoughtful in what could potentially be something that's not as clear and not an area of expertise for them.

Michael Yuz: [00:11:27] Yes absolutely so it will make a difference every day for so many people and we love hearing stories almost on a daily basis. We can help patients and we know science to continue this mission.

Saul Marquez: [00:11:41] Hey so Mike give us an example of one of your proudest medical leadership moments today.

Michael Yuz: [00:11:47] Sure sure.

Michael Yuz: [00:11:48] So from the standpoint of the business or the medical leadership experience I was very proud when two years ago Siemens ventured capital approached us and they evaluated many companies and he found us to be really special and different in the category that were looking for which is a medical diagnostics as well as Second Opinion Space and so they decided to partner with the investment company and then they also really opened the doors to us to expand globally and internationally I mean their presence obviously in every part of the globe. They are the largest diagnostic company and radiology laboratory in either of those areas and very proud that they decided to partner with us. So that was probably my proudest medical entrepreneurial moment.

Saul Marquez: [00:12:39] So now that's really you know it's great to have a large partner like Siemens really just kind of validate what you're doing and become interested because really it becomes an opportunity to scale and take it to the next level because ultimately we could improve outcomes locally but we're really looking for ways to scale and bring this to the globe.

Michael Yuz: [00:12:59] That's the whole point. I always say if you're going to invest your energy and do some things why not do something big and really on technology we are able to really help so many people. And with Siemens outreach now we just announced a few months ago the technology that they released called the ecosystem as a team play.

Michael Yuz: [00:13:21] So every Siemens customer will have access to their strategic partners like us. So imagine you are a patient in Ohio or are you a patient you know in Nigeria and you undergo MRI examination. You know you are able to have access to a team a team of some of the best physicians and that is where you are just because she wants to get a scan the next step you may need a neurologist orthopedic surgeon or oncologist so. So the whole full gamut of services professional services.

Saul Marquez: [00:13:55] Now that is super exciting and congratulations to you and your team Mike for getting that honor and looking forward to seeing how that develops. What would you say a setback you've had Mike. You say it's not all rainbows and sunshine. Share a setback that you've experienced and then potentially get out of it.

Michael Yuz: [00:14:11] Yeah absolutely. Everyone has setbacks.

Michael Yuz: [00:14:15] I think I would have to say so I ran the company I'm a CEO of the company but I cannot run on my own. So I rely on people. I'm very proud of the people and we were able to bring on board. But I will say that beside me was by bringing in more people and the mistake that I made was by looking at the CV and in turn people as a whole.

Michael Yuz: [00:14:39] I think that anybody can get lucky anybody can succeed. I think you have to lose that pattern of success. And also we also have to look how are you able to work with certain people. And then we judge the book by its cover so to speak. Yes, I made some mistakes by probably hiring a couple of people which probably caused some setback for the company but overall I think I'm proud of having an amazing team.

Michael Yuz: [00:15:08] It's really hard Saul to find the right people. And it's not just me I think if you speak with CEOs and that's really the biggest challenge. You know to find the right people.

Saul Marquez: [00:15:19] Yeah it's definitely one of the big ones that the guests on the show will bring up as one of the biggest challenges of being a leader and what would you say Mike, obviously you made some good great choices and you know some that haven't worked out. I've done the same thing I've hired people that haven't worked out.

Saul Marquez: [00:15:34] And boy can they create a mess and then hiring the right ones. But what would you say One or two pearls that you've gotten out of your hiring experience to get the right teams in place. What are one or two pearls that you do with the leaders. Yes.

Michael Yuz: [00:15:49] So you look at a pattern of success. So like I said anybody in the company you know a great one time a lot of it is time. You can have the best idea in the planet but you'll never get anywhere because the timing is off.

Michael Yuz: [00:16:06] Usually people who are really you know have succeeded or may made anything they touched.

Michael Yuz: [00:16:13] Yes. And it's very rare when those people when they really exist. If you also look outside of the industry don't get too attached. You know somebody who was you know made it an amazing thing. You know a few years back you were 10 years ago and wasn't your space.

Michael Yuz: [00:16:32] That's the biggest mistake people make.

Michael Yuz: [00:16:34] Look at all the industries look at the current reasons of success look at them reputed success also look at people that are 24/7.

Saul Marquez: [00:16:44] What do you mean by that. Mike 24/7 you know like me people don't sleep when you do it.

Michael Yuz: [00:16:51] I got to be able to call my manager or executive and say to them and say Do you have a problem. Can you help me. So especially now business which is 24/7 diversified. That's probably one of the pearls you know willing to work on the weekends. They commit it to you 100 percent. You all do they have an agenda because you want to really see what they want to do. So those are some of the pearls. that's really helpful Mike and appreciate your sharing by the way I want to share with you. I'm able to work actually 24/7, 365 65 and I don't demand any money. I think when I was I was in college I actually discovered that I actually didn't need sleep. And sleep is you know don't try to home sleep is extremely important. But I was able to you know be with someone who buys laptops that have a solid state memory. Yeah. So I was able to discover that I'm kind of like hard drive with a solid-state memory that my brain can be shut off and on within milliseconds so I can't get into deep sleep and have enough sleep but I can sleep on three of the four or five hours a night if needed. Of course. I normally sleep. You know everybody else for six hours but I'm able to function for days without real sleep. Long sleep but I can sleep a few minutes and fully and fully recover. So that's fine. And that's I want I'm here.

Saul Marquez: [00:18:20] You're a superhuman. Mike, you are a superhuman. Are you sure you're not a robot?

Michael Yuz: [00:18:25] You know what I do think of myself as a robot winterization. That's funny man. Understand I don't understand easily the mosque is my hero and I miss him and he doesn't because I think I think he probably has that same ability.

Saul Marquez: [00:18:44] You got to leverage your towns and whether it be not being able to function without much sleep or being on or stay able to understand people or are understanding chemistry whatever it may be leverage your strengths and focus them in this area that we're all very much caring about which is improving health outcomes. Now that's interesting to note. OK, Mike, this is the part of the show where you and I put together a little medical leadership course and what it takes to be successful in medicine. It's the 101 course of Dr. Mike for all the listeners. OK. So it's four questions. It's lightning round. I'm going to ask you the question you give me a brief answer and then we finished the syllabus with the book that you recommend for the listeners. You ready? Awesome. Yes. I'm like What is the best way to improve healthcare outcomes.

Michael Yuz: [00:19:36] I think the best way to improve outcomes is by offering choice and bringing transparency to consumers. Clearly, this is the engineering behind the into play the ability to really question am I treated properly do I have the right diagnosis and clearly the studies or major institutions that show 85 percent change in course. You know the rationale diagnosis is that it's clearly you know my value and I believe that's transparency and choice and questioning is what it's all about.

Saul Marquez: [00:20:08] What is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid.

Michael Yuz: [00:20:11] Right well I think probably the answer that is avoid the wrong people when applying. Yes. So hiring the right and the right people it's all about people it's all about the team. One person cannot do. I wouldn't be anywhere without my wife for example who's always been there for me or the great team. I have right now.

Saul Marquez: [00:20:30] How do you stay relevant Mike as an organization. Despite constant change.

Michael Yuz: [00:20:34] Right. Well, you have to know. I'm probably Saul sounds crazy but I wake up I don't sleep many hours but I wake up every day with probably several ideas. So now I write them all down or do you just think about them sometimes write them down.

Michael Yuz: [00:20:49] But think of myself as a musician who some do really well in music. I wake up every day with an idea and you know some idea is crazy in my room and my people close to me with some crazy ideas on the radio today they may be amazing potential in the future. But some of them are relevant today some of them you know two years or 10 years. So innovation is the only way and improvements when you have I will not sell you know unless we do something different and we implement something you're pleased with something new and exciting company once a week.

Saul Marquez: [00:21:25] What is one area of focus that should drive all else in the company right.

Michael Yuz: [00:21:29] Well I think that we have a common goal is to make a difference so we can help really millions even billions of people. That's really what drives us.

Michael Yuz: [00:21:39] For me it's about making a dent in the universe. And I was. This is something that drove me when I was a teenager and I never stopped. I never stopped dreaming and never stopped taking that one at a step.

Michael Yuz: [00:21:52] Now when we have helped maybe thousands of people I know soon will be making news for millions and millions of people.

Saul Marquez: [00:22:00] And finally Mike what book would you recommend to the listeners at some time. All right. You got two of them for us.

Michael Yuz: [00:22:06] Yes. One is biography called Elon Musk. I think it's amazing. It's amazing, love that. Yeah.

Michael Yuz: [00:22:14] And a second one my favorites at all times is zero to one by Pether Thiel you know this one, Saul? You know what.

Saul Marquez: [00:22:21] It was actually recommended by one of our guest Scott Becker. I picked it up Mike and it was unbelievable. I loved it.

Michael Yuz: [00:22:28] Yeah OK. So it was recommended. So anyway it's all about thinking outside the box outside your comfort zone. Any time in my experience of my life any time I reach some kind of goal of success I get really bored. So I I break out of the zone and I do something else and I take risks. You know I could just in my example as a medical doctor I couldn't just practice medicine and you know the radiology and you know what specialties is living a comfortable life. I broke it through that comfort zone so many times. So and again some people think I'm crazy because I think I'm taking a huge risk. I want to Chow's one-two houses. Know she had to sell one house when I was 17 years doesn't require a lot of resources. It's going gangbusters. I can tell you I mean look at the Elon Musk man the guy made almost 20 million selling one of these companies, that's eBay right. And then you took everything he had every penny and he was he was basically living on the streets. I mean I love that. It's totally nuts of them someone to do that. I'm kind of like them as well. I take a lot of risks without risks. You're going to be staying the same place.

Saul Marquez: [00:23:44] Now that's a great message Mike and I could definitely hear the passion in your voice. I love it. And you know and if everybody can come at it with that passion that Mike is sharing with us it's just a matter of time because the health care system that we have it's it's already fixed. But it's how we approach it and how we cut and slice it and how we optimize it that's going to give us the health system that we all deserve and that includes new technologies new approaches and approaches with the passion that Mike has. And boy let me tell you it's only a matter of time before sustained thought gives us the answers that we're looking for. I agree. Thank you so much. Thank you, man I appreciate the passion that you bring. So we're close to the end here. The last thing that we're going to ask you to do Mike is share closing thought and then the best place where the listeners can get ahold of you.

Michael Yuz: [00:24:35] Absolutely, Saul. I would give very simple advice. Actually, a smart person once told me you know many years ago and he was very successful he sold his company to GM. It was probably one of the first PACS systems. And I'll never forget that Mike, The harder you work the luckier you get. So it cannot be more true.

Michael Yuz: [00:24:55] It's all about the size and passion and everyone has passion, has ideas right but ideas.

Michael Yuz: [00:25:04] You know without hard work. Basically, they'll call you crazy, dreamers. So it's easy to have ideas and I mean so many people with amazing ideas on them they just give so listen never give up work all your butt off and obviously, you gotta work pretty smart so you got to find the ways. Sometimes you have to find shortcuts from point A to Point B. And that's very important. Otherwise, it'll take you two months or years what can be done in one day. Right. So you got to be very efficient to achieve success to your goals. And last one is think outside of the box. Don't treat people, especially healthcare, have this mentality you know. And it's really something does nobody thought of and then test for it. Every great idea you got to you know a lot of fail a lot of will not hold out. But you got to think of some experiments with some amazing ideas and you'll be surprised you know one out of a thousand ideas that you wake up with will actually work.

Michael Yuz: [00:26:06] And it means a huge difference. You again the Elon Musk many times interview. He's really my hero. So that's one day, of course, I drive Tesla as well. One day you'll have a fully automated car and you know what it's really 90% there. So on a highway, it is fully autonomous while the technology goes. Somebody like suddenly would drop the price because space x company two hundred times the price of a spaceship the same thing, for example, Jonathan Roberts a hero of mine for example in Jenae. I know him personally I met him and he is a gentleman who lowered the price of a DNA sequencing by you know thousands of times. So he's the guy before him.

Michael Yuz: [00:26:56] It goes from a thousand dollars to sequence your genome.

Michael Yuz: [00:26:58] And he made it because the prize is a thousand dollars. So it's hard work innovation and working very efficiently anyway.

Michael Yuz: [00:27:07] I'm gonna shut out at this point.

Saul Marquez: [00:27:09] Now you this is great but this is this has been so much fun and I really appreciate the words of wisdom that you've shared here with us and I'm excited for the listeners to really dive in and get to better understand the healthcare system through your words and get that inspiration but also to understand that they have to take action in order to make things happen because a graveyard is filled with millions of ideas. And so they want to take a second time here to thank you for being on the show Mike and looking forward to staying in touch with you.

Michael Yuz: [00:27:42] Saul thank you so much.

Michael Yuz: [00:27:44] And I think you know you do an amazing job and a lot of people are really really educational.

Michael Yuz: [00:27:49] I'm sure they learn a lot and it's very helpful.

Michael Yuz: [00:27:52] So looking forward to staying in touch and we'll talk soon.

Outro: [00:27:59] Thanks for listening to the Outcomes Rocket podcast. Be sure to visit us on the web at for the show notes, resources inspiration and so much more.

Recommended Book/s:

Zero to One: Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future

Link/s mentioned:



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Opioid Epidemic

Emily Lindemer completed her PhD in the Harvard-MIT Health Sciences & Technology program, using MRI to study structural brain changes that occur in Alzheimer’s disease. In addition, she is the co-founder of a behavioral modification application aimed at helping individuals in recovery for opioid addiction called Hey,Charlie. She was the executive co-chair of Graduate Women at MIT and a strong advocate for girls and women in STEM.

Why Healthcare? I started in neuroscience research. When I finish my undergrad, I worked at the Boston VA healthcare system. One thing I realized working directly with patients was I saw myself working in clinical research.

Hot Topic that should healthcare leaders agenda:  Idea of translation

How have you created results by doing things differently? What we do in  Hey, Charlie is take a scientific approach to proving efficacy and outcomes through IOD back studies with actual patients.

Setbacks that you learned from: More of a challenge – there are huge social barriers to people in the country.

Proudest leadership moments: Every single time that I’m able to talk to patients, no matter how big or small in a way that I feel they’re open to talk about the problem and solution makes really most proud.

Exciting Project: 1) Studying – focus on user experience 2) Big data that will help us clinically integrate – platform for healthcare providers

Emily 101 Course on Outcomes Improvement:

1.What is the best way to improve healthcare outcomes?

Talk to your end users as much as you possibly as you can

2. What is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Not willing to be flexible

3. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Talk to as many people as we can at all times

4. One area of focus that should drive everything else is:

The mission

Recommended Book/s:

Dreamland: The True Tale of America’s Opiate Epidemic

Closing Thought:

If you have an amazing idea, just do it. Don’t be afraid.

The Best Way To Contact Emily:

Link/s mentioned:

Thanks to our Sponsors:

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OR038 Restoring the American Dream with Dave Chase, Founder, Health Rosetta Institute

Dave Chase is a Health Rosetta co-founder focused on the problem that healthcare has become an extractive industry taking resources from what drives 80% of outcomes (education, economic opportunity, public health, healthy behaviors, public safety, clean air and clean water). Recognizing we didn’t get better lighting in homes and cities by optimizing oil lamp technology, the Health Rosetta is an open source blueprint for the Regenerative Health Era.

Chase’s TEDx talk “Healthcare Stole the American Dream – Here’s How We Take it Back” sums up healthcare’s devastation of the middle class & redemption coming via a bottom-up movement. Chase reached 750,000 people through his writing & speaking in 2016.

Chase was the Co-founder of Avado, acquired by & integrated into WebMD/Medscape (the most widely used healthcare professional site). Earlier, Chase founded Microsoft’s $2B, 28,000 partner healthcare ecosystem.

Chase is a father of two student athletes, husband & oxygen-fueled mountain athlete. Dave was a former PAC-12 800 Meter competitor.

Why healthcare? Initially, it was just being a young consultant and being put on a healthcare plan. It wasn’t a master plan but they like the feel and they like the people I was working with. Many years later, I’m still all in.

Hot Topic that should healthcare leaders agenda: Different levels of toxicity in healthcare.

Can you give an example of how you’re providing transparency through Health Rosetta? We came up with a framework we call health 3.0. We laid out the right way to organize healthcare. Health Rosetta is like a roadmap on the journey to the health 3.0 vision. Health Rosetta gets a simple thing on the transparency not only on the price but a transparent bundled price for the necessary procedure.

Closing Thought:

Healthcare isn’t going to get fixed from the top – down. All of us have a role to play.

The Best Way To Contact Dave:

Twitter – @chasedave

LinkedIn – Dave Chase

Link/s mentioned:

Accessible Healthcare with Louis Auguste, Founder at AlexaPath and Impact Fellow at Singularity U

Lou Auguste is the Founder and CEO of Alexapath. Auguste is an entrepreneur in residence at NYU’s Tandon School of Engineering as well as a Global Impact Fellow at Singularity U and a graduate of the Global Social Benefit Institute (GSBI). Alexapath are the winners of the ASME award for Best Hardware Prototype and the USISTEF award for health research in India.

In 2010, after 10 years as a freelance camera man, Lou travelled to Haiti as a videographer for CNN. Two days after arriving he put down the camera and began working to save lives. Thanks to investments from the British Medical Journal and the UK Technology Strategy Board, Auguste was able to begin the research that led him to invent mobile Whole Slide Imaging.

Alexapath is an early stage medical device research and development company. Their product has been dubbed Skype for microscopes. Clinical trials with Northwell Health started in 2015, and initial results were presented at USCAP 2016, full publication expected in 2017.

Why healthcare? My father was a doctor and my mom was a nurse, it’s something that is always close to me. I thought of becoming a doctor but decided that it’s not what I want to take in life.

Hot Topic that should healthcare leaders agenda: Accessible healthcare

Setbacks that you learned from: Monetary gap

Proudest leadership moment: Last year we did an experiment on breast cancer diagnosis. We had 100 patients diagnosed. We built relationship by working with other organizations.

Lou 101 Course on Outcomes Improvement:

1.What is the best way to improve healthcare outcomes?


2. What is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Working with people who don’t share the same vision

3. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Sticking to your vision

4. One area of focus that should drive everything else is:

Developing customer base

Recommended Book/s:

Scrum: The Art of Doing Twice the Work in Half the Time

Closing Thought: We are now focused on working with other companies in creating a system that can work anywhere.

The Best Way To Contact Lou:

Link/s mentioned:

OR028 How Reforming Medical Education Will Lead To Improved Outcomes with Arlen Meyers President and CEO, Society of Physician Entrepreneurs

Arlen Meyers is a professor emeritus of otolaryngology, dentistry, and engineering at the University of Colorado School of Medicine and the Colorado School of Public Health and President and CEO of the Society of Physician Entrepreneurs at . He has created several medical device and digital health companies. Most of them failed. His primary research centers around biomedical and health innovation and entrepreneurship and life science technology commercialization.

He consults for and speak to companies, governments, colleges and universities around the world who need my expertise and contacts in the areas of bio entrepreneurship, bioscience, healthcare, healthcare IT, medical tourism — nationally and internationally, new product development, product design, and financing new ventures.

In addition, he is  a faculty member at the University of Colorado Denver Graduate School and Direct the Program in Biomedical Entrepreneurship at the Jabs Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado Denver Business School and an iCorps participant and trainer

He is the Chief Medical Officer at and

He is honored to be named by Modern Healthcare as one of the 50 Most Influential Physician Executives of 2011 and nominated in 2012 and Best Doctors 2013

Hot Topic that should healthcare leaders agenda: How reforming medical education will lead to improved outcomes

Setbacks that you learned from: Not creating products that anybody wants to buy and not having a viable business model.

Exciting project: Providing education, resources, mentors, networks, experience and social support system through an international chapter network.

Arlen 101 Course on Outcomes Improvement:

1.What is the best way to improve healthcare outcomes?

Measure them. Create a valid, reliable agreed upon outcome measures for all sort of things.

2. What is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Thinking that the letters after your name will get you where you wanna go as an entrepreneur.

3. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Develop entrepreneurial habits.

4. One area of focus that should drive everything else is:

User-defined value.

Recommended Book/s:

In Search of excellence

The Five Dysfunctions of a Team

Closing Thought: Unless physicians become part of the solution they are the problem.

The Best Way To Contact Arlen:

Email –

Linkedin – Arlen Meyers

Link/s mentioned:

Alex Fair is a health innovation community leader, product developer, executive, public speaker, and business developer.  With the help of some fantastic people, he has had the great good fortune to have built, managed and done some interesting things. Here are a few of his favorites include MedStartr, HealthCareMD among others which can be found on his LinkedIn profile.

HERE is YOUR INVITATION: The MedStartr Challenge in November!

  1. If before Nov 30th, 2017, visit:
  2. If after November 30th, visit:

Here’s what you and your team can win!!

$250,000 in funding

$100,000 from Amazon

$10,000 from Mad Pow

1-week accelerator

2 years of support from MedStartr

The Best Way To Contact Alex:

Office Phone – 530-633-7827

Email –

Alex’s Show Notes:

Why healthcare? Started with studying philosophy but after having seen several of his family members die of cancer, he wanted to do something more proximal and directly impactful in healthcare.

Hot Topic that should healthcare leaders agenda: Innovation in large companies can be challenging.  Keep your eyes on the “3 guys and the dog”.  They’re innovating and can help you innovate too.

Exciting project: Working to get 8 new companies in the portfolio.

Closing Thought: Keep Innovating.  No matter who you are or what you do, don’t be afraid to wander and keep creating things.