Category: Digital Health

No comments exist

Digital Marketing Tips to Help Your Organization Increase Sales, Attract Talent and Win Mindshare with Gary Monk, Healthcare Innovation Consultant

Thanks for tuning in to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to personally invite you to our first inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's a conference that the Outcomes Rocket and the IU Center for Health Innovation and Implementation Sciences has teamed up on. We're going to put together silo crushing practices just like we do here on the podcast except it's going to be live with inspiring keynotes and panelists. To set the tone, we're conducting a meeting where you can be part of drafting the blueprint for the future of healthcare. That's right. You could be a founding member of this group of talented industry and practitioner leaders. Join me and 200 other inspiring health leaders for the first Inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's an event that you're not going to want to miss. And since there's only 200 tickets available you're going to want to act soon. So how do you learn more? Just go to For more details on how to attend that's and you'll be able to get all the info that you need on this amazing healthcare thinkathon. That's

I thank you for tuning into the podcast again. I really appreciate that. You know I've gotten a lot of information, a lot of e-mails saying how certain episodes have resonated so don't be shy follow up with us on Twitter at @outcomesrocket, we'd like to hear from our listeners because today I have an amazing guest and I also invite you to rate and review us at This guest is an amazing collaborator in health care- a digital healthcare innovator with over two decades of experience. Originally from London, England. But now here in the United States specifically in New York City. His focus is on helping healthcare institutions differentiate themselves through innovative strategies using digital and also technology and so his focus is social media. Its digital platforms for marketing, anything that will help you as a healthcare professional as a healthcare leader within an organization. Promote what you're doing but also get it to the right hands at the right time. So Gary just want to welcome you to the podcast and fill many of the other gaps of that introduction that I may have missed yet.

So I think that's great, that was that was all good. I should say I moved over from London to New York several years ago. I'm actually originally from Birmingham so I don't want to forget my roots. That's from I'm originally from the UK but I spent many years living in London and I've worked over that at that time in healthcare. Worked within pharmaceutical companies a lot of Simon Johnson Johnson and then working in agency and consultancy. So a broad broad experience but I think you covered it very well. So yes looking forward to this.

Absolutely. And so are we. So the reason why I wanted to bring Gary on here is to get a little taste of outside of the normal health care box right because in general we've got to find better ways to target our customers our patients and really get a better outreach. And I think we all struggle at this. And so Gary is here to provide us some insights. But before we do get into that Gary what got you in the healthcare to begin with?

Yeah I mean I'm a real science nerd so my study I guess you'd call a major here and majored in organic chemistry and medicinal chemistry. Yeah and I was really fascinated with how these humans build molecules can interact with the body receptors at these sites and have a profound sense of profound positive effect but also how we could minimize side effects and make sure they were really specific. So it's I found that side of it is fascinating so that got me into healthcare and interested in pharmaceuticals and also the scientific pursuit of it, very exciting but also that potential for doing something good for humanity was compelling. So that's got me into it. I spent some time in the lab. One small anecdote probably in my life I definitely have got the skills for science but in terms of the humbling part of that is I certainly did not have the practical skills because at my time at the Glaxo research center in England I was working in the hydrogenation suite there and Trott's and finely divided catalyst on the floor, started a small fire really created the next small fire has to be the catalyst kind of expose the air and set on fire. So luckily we didn't end up with the next Hindenburg but I kind of realized I have in mind for science that maybe not the body and the practicality and the coordination but that got me in there and then I moved out of the lab and the rest is kind of history really.

But that's awesome I'm nothing terrible came out of that Gary but your passion stuck and now you're helping people build fires so that they can get attention to their practices and businesses so you're doing it in a positive way.

Exactly, a lot that's Yes that's true.

So that's fascinating. What would you say today Gary is a hot topic that needs to be on every medical leaders agenda and how are you guys approaching this?

Yeah the thing I think of is data an artificial intelligence sounds like two topics but clearly they're very deeply intertwined. And when I say data I'm talking specifically about personal and patient data and they kind of like sound like dirty words now particularly with the times with what's going on with Facebook. But we got these initiatives going on around real world data, population health, outcomes driven health care lot of those was but important initiatives. But none of these are actually going to produce anything of value without the right use of data. The right approach and the use of artificial intelligence for example in artificial intelligence is will highlight we can set up a program, say Population Health Program. Artificial intelligence is going to actually highlight factors that the researchers program managers have not even considered in the set-up page and really help us join the dots in the ways we might find it hard to do. So say yes that's very big and it's a complex challenge. So when I think about my approach and our approach to that one, thing that comes out is very specific. Clearly we need to get all the set up right about understand the problem make sure asking the right questions. But what I would say is probably actually more of a general point that could apply to other things outside of artificial intelligence as well but is to really think broadly in the thinking in the ideation phase. So to give you an example in most cases pretty much all cases you want to go super broad in terms of the types of data collection. But let's take a hypothetical example if we're running a program in New York around mental health and we're trying to support patients who may be on medicines but we've got a coaching program on online coaching counseling program support program that they can go to. Obviously we can pull a lot of metrics of how patients are engaging but we probably want to take as much information about that patients as possible and those patients to feed into the system. So what I'm talking about the ideation phase is when the planning that is to really look at the types of datas that would be useful to us. And look at them without judgment. So conceivably we could think for those patients that would be great to you know where they are, whether they're going out, use a geolocation on that phone, how active they are, how much exercise they're doing, any activity based from their phone. Any wearable devices they are using, if they got a sensors in their home measure their exact movements, monitor their phone calls, a number of phone calls, frequency duration of calls. Same with text messages how long they are and even what they are saying from their voice modulation intonation to actually what they're saying. The more I can't keep saying it probably sounds very very creepy. But the important point I'd want make in it, yeah.

In the back of my mind I'm like holy cow. Like that's a lot of information and it makes you think right like we could get a lot of information from our cell phones. So how do we use it. What are some guidelines there and what are some examples of what you guys have done.

Yes. So there's a lot of good examples of that. I mean this one I wasn't directly involved in but I think it's a nice example one that I'm actually involved in kind of sharing out, blocking around it. It's a little while ago now. I think the company slightly pivoted but a company called So I've actually pulled that into proposals, the clients, the pictures has been actually build it out but that was fascinating technology where they actually use the mobile phone I believe they use the tracking of the phones of the geolocation, and the sensors, the patient moving around as a proxy for how their depression was going so clearly if they're sitting around they're not moving much generally that probably moves probably lower if they're functional moving around, going to the shops, going going out, seeing friends, socializing that's obviously good. And I mention a bit about voice to kind of throw that in there. But actually I believe they using not going as far as monitoring what the patients were are actually saying which I appreciate sounds creepy but understanding their voice modulation. So how often they are speaking. So actually, now okay, if they're isolated and they're not sending text messages, they're not calling their family, they're probably not in a good place. But if they're making frequent calls you know we're not interested in what they're saying, snooping on the conversations but actually if having those conversations on a regular basis, it's probably a good thing. So using those metrics. So I think that's a really good a good good use case all. The reason I put this about listening to the patients in there, it's kind of to be provocative. But I think it's a really important point when we start thinking big on these projects. There's no harm in thinking these things initially, I feel the problem I'm kind of going on a ramp here now. But I found a problem with big companies as opposed to start, having work in both will shot down ideas like next lessons what the patients are saying.


Explore that and we might get to a point of actually ethically that doesn't work, it doesn't work for the patient. But let's explore where that could lead to and maybe it leads to the point of actually we listen to the patients conversations. Not what they saying but how often are they saying it, the voice modulation that we anonymize everything, they identify everything. So we get to kind of an exciting place because we've opened our thinking rather than someone then say a farmer of a big biotech company. No we can't do that, we can't listen to what's patients are saying over the phone and it kind of gets shot down as soon as it's thought about and conceived and then the end idea often ends up very vanilla and really not that valuable. So you see what I'm saying.

I totally agree.

Thinking big initially. Yeah, and then we pull it back in and we make sure we're doing the right thing on the patient ethically and we don't go spying on patients et cetera. We start thinking what data could we actually use and how would we get it and how would it serve us.

Yeah. Gary, and you bring up a good point, right? The point here is listeners you've got to be open-minded if you're going to innovate, you've got to be open minded and sure, it might be a little edgy but let's find ways like anonymizing and de-identifying and stripping away the things that are patient information and making those voice markers or key keywords something that could serve the people that it's intended to serve. And Gary the thing that brings up kind of thought in my mind about this discussion is the whole area of digital therapeutics and what's being done with digital technology to help patients. It's super interesting what's going on out there isn't it?

Yeah absolutely, absolutely. And you know obviously what you said I can cover a lot of things but it's simply fascinating when you've got digital tools that can even, that actually help patients. I was speaking to a friend who works for a startup and I say what he does as a digital therapeutics but actually helping patients sleep better. So analyzing understanding their sleep patterns by sensors on the body but also in the room where they're sleeping. And then part of the digital therapeutics is actually adjusting their environment, the temperature of the room but also the important thing that he's doing is actually using research to actually place specific segments of white noise at certain times when patients are sleeping, deep sleeping, their having their delta waves of deep sleep and the scientific research shows when the right sound is played at that time it can actually extend the period of deep sleep.


And mean, the patient, the human being gets a lot more restful sleep. So I would say that's a good example of a digital intervention where it's listening, understanding but also giving that kind of response via feedback and there's a good patient outcome hopefully at the end of that.

Gary what a great example and programs like video games to help you with ADHD instead of Ritalin. Listeners,the point here is what Gary is telling us is that we've got to think outside the box and we've got to push the envelope and oftentimes large organizations get trapped with the knee-jerk 'No'. And the little guys come up the little digital Davids and they kick butt. And so just a little thing to consider this little warning like be open to innovation and be open to ideas even though up front they may not seem like it distill them to the point where you can actually maybe get something that's not vanilla to Gary's point and it doesn't make an impact. So Gary can you give the listeners an example of some of the things that you've done to help your clients create results and get things done better improve outcomes?

Yeah, I got a couple of examples. One thing is coming to mind that I've been working on quite extensively recently which is a hot topic is a social media. So I can't get to many specific examples but I've worked on clinical trial recruitment using social media which is very exciting because we've been able to get patients to enroll to play with trials faster than they normally would. And also more of them faster but also importantly at a lower cost as well. The cost of acquisition is between 10 and 100 times lower than using traditional methods. So that's been very exciting using social media for that. I even shared something yesterday I wasn't involved in it but the use of artificial intelligence attached to medical records to recruit patients for a clinical trials, that's how it's kind of evolving, that's such a big a big area where there such potential to help patients that there's a global shortage of clinical trial patients and also ensure that done cost effectively as well. So that's the big thing. I kind of broaden out to social media generally again because it is such a hot topic. So I've been working on, I mean I love social media from the perspective that using things that Facebook, you can target patients directly and actually understand whether they've taken specific actions seen adopt the measure if they've moved on that journey towards better outcomes. And the reason I mention Facebook sub-16 in the news a lot recently Zuckerberg been hold up in Congress. But yeah, it's very it's got a lot of good potential within healthcare but obviously it's got the potential for misuse as well so that I'm optimistic we can get to a point where the goodwill will triumph and we can use it but I'm just really concerned that the people don't get the point of like Facebook using this is bad, start using it. There's a lot of good that can actually be done if it's done in the right way using using this and other other channels.

Now totally man and you know Gary let's talk about Facebook. So a lot of folks in the industry will think about campaigns whether it be driving patients to a trial, medication trial whether it be a training business clients in the healthcare space. I've heard the debate Facebook versus LinkedIn, which one is more effective. What's your take on that?

Yeah I mean I've got a lot of experience doing this and obviously it does depend a lot on who you're targeting and exact and what you're doing. Overall, forget about the audience in terms of the power of the targeting. Currently Facebook I know they're pulling back some of that based on you know some of the abuses that they've had. So we'll have to see how that nets out but it still looks like the targetings would say a lot more powerful than LinkedIn so from a fuel targeting perspective, I find Facebook more valuable. In terms of treating patients in most cases Facebook is going to be where more of the patients are and easier to reach in context. Obviously a number of them maybe on LinkedIn, but in terms of actually reaching them the right way around that condition it's usually accepted more for that message to come through something like Facebook than LinkedIn. The work I've done targeting health care professionals actually it's been a mix of, I've had mixed results depending on the type, the type of project, the type of physicians working on LinkedIn versus Facebook. Often my advice would be, you know without knowing more about a specific project, if it's healthcare professionals, look at doing both and then see what's really working. Why are you getting the most benefit, you the getting the most reach and then send over the, leave the budget on to one that's working. So I'd always advise clients to be flexible. You have got this pot of money. We decided we're going to put like, play safe part on LinkedIn, half on Facebook but we have to quickly dial it up one way or the other if we're getting impact one one platform versus the other.

So overall you feel like Facebook allows you to do more acute targeting meaning more specific targeting and LinkeIn not as much but you recommend sort of try a mix of both measuring and then pivoting once you figure out what's working out.

Yeah absolutely. And what surprised me from practical expense is how effective Facebook can be about reaching doctors because you know you see the statistics a lot of doctors are using Facebook for personal reasons.


But a lot less using it for professional reasons. But that's kind of a bit of an arbitrary distinction because when a physician is on that for personal reasons, if someone is coming out in context the doctor's not going to switch off that it's relevant to them or their practice. So they're still going to click through on that ad if they're using it to keep in touch with their family or look at their friend's holiday pictures they're not going to ignore it and say oh I'm not clicking on that even if it's interesting and relating to my profession. Now that's not going to happen, they're going to they're going to click on it. So yes, definitely consider Facebook for doctors.

Fascinating. Now that's some really great insights. And listeners as you consider these newer digital platforms you know take some of these thoughts from Gary and plug them into your strategy and do some testing as you work to reach those people that you want to impact most whether it be patients whether it be providers or industry. Just do these tests and ultimately the end result will come from being able to tweak, tweak until you get the result that you're looking for. Gary what would you say one of your proudest leadership moments in healthcare have been today?

Yeah. So that's a tough question, there's a lot of work I've done. But yes but the one thing that's coming to mind that kind of leaves lodged in my memory because I kind of built on it since was a couple years ago I led a team hackathon in Cleveland Clinic.


Yeah it was great, it's very exciting and we created a solution to potentially helps chronic pain patients reduce their dependence on opioids at new stage or not artifitially intelligence to learn what interventions were having an impact outside of the medication. So even things like kind of acupuncture, yoga, meditation. So there's a great achievement by full disclosure on that, it won an award at a hackathon which was great so it was successful from that perspective Due to array of reasons didn't get that built out. I'd still love to build that out. So I think that's extremely exciting but the real positive from that and I'm proud of it is the learning of thinking from Math is there. I have been able to move that on into other projects, advising startups, biotech pharma companies on similar projects. You know if you examine the field of mental health. So it's taking that value even though not directly in that project and using that knowledge in other projects. I think the reason I'm proud of that and those type of projects is you know I really believe in what pharmaceutical companies can do. What I also believe in is the importance of having that kind of a holistic approach of what's working for the patients. Sometimes drugs are great sometimes they are not right great. Sometimes they are very important in the context of other interventions. So that's really important for me is having the right interventions for the patients that may or may not include drugs but we're not just totally focused on the early onset is a pilland a medicine so you know that's kind of where my head is with that.

Yeah that's really interesting Gary and thanks for sharing that I know a good percentage of the of the listeners are also entrepreneurs building things. And so if what Gary mentioned to you sounds interesting. By all means at the end of the podcast Gary will share his contact information how you could get a hold of them. Maybe it's a project that you and Gary can pick up, dust it off and get it going because there's definitely a need for solutions to solve the opioid epidemic. And so the imitation is there, right Gary?

Yes absolutely. I'd love to keep working on that. Definitely.

Tell us a little bit about an exciting project that you're working on today?

So, I'm working on as I said those types of projects there where I'm working on actually using real world data to support patients from various different devices. It's hard to talk like exact specifics but to give you an idea of some of the range of stuff I do something important is working on a number of digital transformations for mainly pharmaceutical companies which is really moving them from a position of not using much in the way of digital channels and communications to their patients and their doctors in their in their marketing. Actually using it in a really defined smart way in a way I don't even want to say multichannel but in a way that really understands the needs of the end customers and actually takes them on the journey and the digital tools they use in the right way and that's exciting for me because that's measurable using digital and technology to take whether it's doctors patients on a specific journey and get to an endpoint. And the beauty of that measurable pace is we can really tie that back to outcomes rather of the the easy way of doing things it's like we need to be digital, let's do e-mail, like Websites that builds an app and just kind of throw things at the patient not the doctor. There's a fair chance that's not to work anyway. But if it does work we kind of don't even understand what's really working and what's not. So some of those transformation projects you know for me are very exciting. And then the more those some of those projects working on building in the technology were actually supporting patients not just using medicines but actually using technologies and other interventions so those ones but those are the ones that I find even more exciting.

Super exciting and you know we need more of that Gary, so keep up the awesome work there. There's no doubt that companies are starting to come to grips with the fact that this is the way that things are going so keep up the great work.


So Gary getting to the end here let's pretend you and I are building a leadership course in medicine, the Digital Leadership Course in Medicine, the 101 of Gary Monk and I want to build out a syllabus with you. I've got four questions that our lightning round style so some quick responses to these followed by a book and a podcast that you recommend to the listeners. You ready?

Yes great.

All right. What's the best way to improve health outcomes using digital?

So the key thing is understand the patient's situation. I know you wanted it sure but that probably sounds like a cliche, really challenge what you know about the patient and observe the patient understand that pain points. I always like to think if you were if you wanted to understand how a lion lions hunt you don't go and watch and see to the zoo. So forget focus groups just really observe the patient and understand them.

Great analogy. What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

The key thing to me is we need to stop by asking the right questions. So yes I mentioned dates you and I are important. But if we're not careful we might start to get the right answers to the wrong questions.

How do you stay relevant despite constant change?

The two big things I've mentioned the focus of the patients are really understanding them as they evolve but also involving the changing technology landscape so involved both. Get both reported, the patients actually more so because if we understand the patients and not the technology well enough the outcomes are going to be sub-optimal. If we understand the technology and not the patient, it's going to be a disaster.

Love it. What's one area of focus should drive everything in a health organization, a digital area of focus.

A digital area focus. So I was going to just answer the easy thing which is important and bring it back to the patients. But actually if you saw a digital area of focus it's understanding that patient, the patients not to see things out necessarily digital, non-digital but just really understanding what they're using, what channels they are using but also why are they using them, what problem are they actually trying to solve with that so just getting real deep in understanding that from a patient's perspective.

Outstanding. What book and what podcasts would you recommend to the listeners, Gary?

Yes. So in terms of a book. I finished a recent book actually called Life 3.0 by Max Tegmark and it's about the future of the artificial general intelligence now the some healthcare examples. But what I love about it is it really takes the future forward about where artificial general intelligence can go when machines get smarter than humans. And before I read think more about science fiction. But actually this stuff will be a reality it's just a question if it's whether it's 30 years or 300 years from now. I mean that's what the experts are debating, not whether machines will get smarter than humans but just will it be hundreds of years away that we have think about it in our lifetimes or could it be sooner. But actually it was really good. So understand that from a kind of visionary perspective and then to tie things back from healthcare and understand where it can go.

Life 3.0. And how about a podcast?

Yeah. So I feel like your questions I'm comfortable with them all but this one's kind of stomp me you, know I listen to a range of podcasts like not including yours, but I'm just starting to really get into them because you know I've mentioned that book Life 3.0 and it was the first book that I listened to on Audible. So yes, I've found that now in New York when I'm I've got so much time to kind of more like listening to stuff and reading stuff you know when I'm on the subway it's a lot easier to listen than to read so probably next time I'll have a list of cast but really anything to do with technology so I dip into any podcast-related technology. I have listened to digital marketer, once on digital marketing, such really keep up to speed on digital social media and technology so I kind of dip in but also it's a recommendations from you and your listeners as well apart from this podcast and the others I should be listening to so yeah.

Outstanding Yeah. And now sinner's that's the beauty of podcasting. You know you could go into the podcast app type in your topic of choice whether it be health care or if you want to just take a breather from health care and learn about tennis or cooking or marketing whatever you want. It's all there. The platform is powerful. So do like Gary does you know search for what you're feeling in the moment and just go for it. Gary, before we conclude I'd love if you could just share a closing thought and then the best place for the listeners can get a hold of you.

Great. Yeah, I mean the closing thought really would be that the one thing that we discussed that kind of that I feel the most strongly about is just that real you know without you know not wanting to sound like a cliché but thinking big and by that is like just really fearlessly going out thinking about what you need to do to achieve the specific outcome without judgment and criticism. And you know I've read the Debono book many times and it's kind of that green up thinking where I'm judged, not you are creative, we're not judging. And then we bring in the critical thinking later about what the current issues to regulator issues might be. So to think big and open it first would be the really big change to make this stuff happen and don't let me off thinking initially. So that's be the really the big thing to me and yet I'd love love if the listeners want to get hold of me, that would be great. I'm very easy to find on LinkedIn. And I'm very open to connecting so you can put all the extension into LinkedIn and it's Gary W. Monk would just search for Gary W. Monks that's one 'r', search for me their own LinkedIn and switchapp, it's just simply @GaryMonk,so that's where the two best places to find me and I'd love to connect.

If you're on the road don't worry about writing anything down just go to and you'll be able to find all of Gary's information, links to the books that he recommended and a transcript of today's conversation. So Gary, just want to say thanks again for spending time with us and looking forward to staying in touch.

Yes definitely a pleasure. Thanks all and looking forward

Thanks for tuning in to the outcomes rocket podcast if you want the show notes, inspiration, transcripts and everything that we talked about on this episode. Just go to And again don't forget to check out the amazing healthcare Thinkathon where we can get together took form the blueprint for the future of healthcare. You can find more information on that and how to get involved in our theme which is "implementation is innovation". Just go to that's Be one of the 200 that will participate. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix


Recommended Book and Podcast:

Life 3.0: Being Human in the Age of Artificial Intelligence

Best Way to Contact Gary:

LinkedIn:  Gary W. Monk

Switchapp:  @GaryMonk

Mentioned Link/s:

Episode Sponsor:

No comments exist

Exploring Digital Technology and Wearables to Improve Quality and Outcomes with Dr. Stephanie Carreiro, Medical Toxicologist & Emergency Physician at UMass

Thanks for tuning in to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to personally invite you to our first inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's a conference that the Outcomes Rocket and the IU Center for Health Innovation and Implementation Sciences has teamed up on. We're going to put together silo crushing practices just like we do here on the podcast except it's going to be live with inspiring keynotes and panelists. To set the tone, we're conducting a meeting where you can be part of drafting the blueprint for the future of healthcare. That's right. You could be a founding member of this group of talented industry and practitioner leaders. Join me and 200 other inspiring health leaders for the first Inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's an event that you're not going to want to miss. And since there's only 200 tickets available you're going to want to act soon. So how do you learn more? Just go to For more details on how to attend that's and you'll be able to get all the info that you need on this amazing healthcare thinkathon. That's

Welcome back once again to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders. I really thank you for tuning in again and I welcome you to go to where you could rate and review today's podcast because we have an outstanding guest, an amazing contributor to healthcare. She takes a unique view into the health system the opioid crisis, medical toxicology in general. Her name is Dr. Stephanie Carreiro. She's assistant professor of medical emergency medicine and medical toxicology at U Mass. The University of Massachusetts Medical School and at the University of Massachusetts she really has derived a passion for novel translation research and is specifically interested in the integration of wearable technology with behavioral interventions in the treatment of substance abuse disorders. Her current research pursuits include the utilization of mobile biosensors and micro RNA profiles to evaluate drug toxicity, substance abuse, and addiction. And in this age of the opioid epidemic and a lot of the issues that we're having in healthcare I just thought it was so timely to have Dr. Carreiro on the podcast so I want to give you a warm welcome Dr. Carreiro and open up the mic to you to fill in the gaps in the introduction that maybe you want to fill in.

Excellent thank you so much, Saul and thank you for the opportunity to be on the podcast and for creating such an interesting forum for knowledge exchange. I enjoy listening and I've actually learned a lot just listening to a few podcasts. So I actually as you mentioned of a medical toxicologist, an emergency physician and a researcher in the health space and I really have tried to focus my interest or my work on wearable biosensor approaches to addiction that build bridges between patients, providers, engineers, scientists to create innovative solutions that work for addiction but also that can create exemplary model for integrating technology into or patient care space.

It's so fascinating and we share that passion, Stephanie of knocking down silos between different specialties and I love your passion for this particular hot topic. So how would you define the hot topic that needs to be on every medical leaders agenda today and how are you focused on tackling it?

That's a great question. So I actually think not just in substance abuse space but in health care across the board. We really need to look at how to optimally integrate technology into the provider workflow and the patient lives. There is a phenomenal explosion of both mobile and nonmobile technology and there's a tremendous amount of data coming through. The problem is if the approaches to using it in care are not practical and usable then they're not really yielding much benefit. So poorly designed and poorly executed technology really increase the workload it costs money without any measurable benefit. And when I notice that providers and patients really want is something that seamlessly integrates into their life and workflow in the background it really gives them something to complement and enhance what they're already done not necessarily create more work or more burden. And so that's kind of where I've tried to focus my efforts and I think that's important for the bigger picture as well.

Yeah, you know seamless integration works within the workflow. These are some common themes that a lot of physicians are just clamoring for in the midst of all this technology that's being pushed into hospitals. Can you give us an example Dr. Carreiro of how you've been able to help this effort?

One of the things that we work on again is wearable and mobile solutions right. So we have wearable sensors that are simply physiology. We're working hard to create these robust and accurate detection algorithms that identify things like for example in my work. We're looking to identify when patients use drugs like opioids or cocaine when patients are particularly stressed when they're craving drugs et cetera and that science is wonderful and exciting. But if the response to that detection is not something that the patient is poor provider is excited about or fits with what they're doing then all of that work on the detection Divac and detection strategy really goes to waste. So for example patients and providers talk a lot about work fatigue and data overload. And so if we create a system where we detect multiple events in a day and send a provider 50 alerts per patient for example with completely unusable data then again the detection system is essentially useless if we find a way and this is kind of more we're headed to combine all that netted data so to speak into one single alert for a provider that encapsulates really the bigger picture the patient for a day as opposed to minute by minute updates. We've found that that is much more accepted on the part of the provider and provides a much more useful tool for them to go forward and help the patient essentially.

Yeah this is a really great call out you know listeners how many of you are in a provider setting and you find yourself overwhelmed with alarm fatigue. You find yourself overwhelmed with data that you really don't know what to do with. I think this is very common. So the question that Dr. Carreiro just leaves us with is how can we make this information more exciting, more useful so that we can translate it into actionable results? And she also mentioned the opioid epidemic. I thought this would be a great opportunity for Stephanie somebody that spent a lot of time in toxicology and on this topic of the opioid academic for her to give us a little background like how did this thing all start. You know that question comes up all the time. Maybe you could guide us through the history and how we got to today.

One of the things that we've seen over the last 10-20 years is really the explosion of prescription opioids that many people feel have driven this epidemic in so 10 to 20 years ago. Physicians were really encouraged to treat patients. Now that's not a bad thing right. We should be attentive to human suffering. All of us and physicians want to alleviate that in any way possible. I think the problem came when people decided that opioids because they're good at doing that they're good at treating pain he decided that opioids should be given somewhat ubiquitously. And also there was a very prominent misconception that if people have legitimate pain they could not become addicted to opioids. That's what I was taught in medical school. Not incredibly long time ago. And that's an egregious misrepresentation to one of the things that I actually asked my trainees to do when a patient presents with an opioid overdose. Once obviously resuscitated and out of the critically ill period. I asked my doctors treating, my residents and my medical student to talk to them about how their first opioid exposure occurred. How did they get to the point where they were in the emergency room and a near death situation as an addiction. And by and large what we hear from people is that they often started with a legitimate prescription from a physician for opiate medication. It's often they had an injury or a surgery or a condition that was painful and some probably well-meaning physician gave them a prescription to alleviate their pain and that often spirals out of control. And so I think we're just probably the last five years come to realize that very altruistic kind of idea that we should treat aggressively treat is coming back to bite us essentially. And so it's led to a lot of talk about how we change our prescribing practices to protect people to balance the need for pain control with the risk that these these strong medications carry. And also coming up with not always to identify who is at risk and protect them. Unfortunately all those efforts will likely make an impact going forward. So people who don't have an addiction problem will benefit from them. But we're also kind of stuck with a large population of people who currently have an addiction problem. And we have to we have to deal with that as well.

Yeah, this is a great insight and thank you for that timeline and what I love about Dr. Carreiro's story here is that as leaders we have two options we could either look through the window and blame somebody for the epidemic or we could look in the mirror and take responsibility. And what I find is that the leaders in healthcare like Dr. Carreiro, like Dr. Peter Chai who recommended Doctor Carrero to be on the podcast as well. They're taking responsibility for this and they're saying what can we do. And so the message here to the providers but also to industry is look in the mirror instead of looking through the window and pointing your finger because in the end that's how we're going to curb this issue. And so I want to I want to thank you Stephanie for your courage in taking that and saying what are we going to do versus hey they're the ones responsible.

Absolutely fingerpointing is isn't going to get any of us anyway, right.


So I think one of the biggest advantages I have in my practice is be able to see this on a daily basis to constantly remind me that it's not a problem we can sweep under the rug. It's not a problem that we can point at someone else to blame or even say their responsibility is sick. I think we all need to own a part of this and move forward.

Totally and I'm going to take another side street on this one and say so, okay maybe you're not a provider, maybe you're an industry maybe you're a payer. Well guess what? The onus is on you too because a lot of this and my wife have talked about too, Dr. Carreiro like OK if something happens how often are you leaving your medications in a place where they're easily accessible to your child or your child's friends. Part of the effort for this opioid epidemic is for you to safeguard those medications and to talk to your neighbors and talk to your friends during parties about doing the same thing because a lot of these things happen on accident.

I couldn't agree more. I think it again kind of limiting prescriptions is a fantastic way to present to personally prevents some of the issues we've seen. But there's so much more to it than that. So a responsible opioid prescribing responsible opioid use by patients are responsible opioid disposal. So any time we can get opiates out of the hands of the community is a wonderful thing or limit the opiates in the community to the spots where they're needed but also kind of talking to people opening the discussion decreasing the stigma is huge, you know realizing that this could happen to any one of us it's happening in communities of nice people with wonderful families. No one is really immune to the rest.


And so I love that you're talking about it and that you're can open this up to everyone's problem as opposed to a problem that we can look that we ascribe to a different group of people or someone else.

Totally. Yup. So I'm inspired by your accountability Dr. Carreiro and I encourage everybody else to take accountability for this because it's not just our providers, it's us. And what we're doing in this realm I recently found out about about a website called It's not a Kmart website but it's kind of sickening. It's a site that guides people on how to manipulate their physicians to get more pain meds. And so there are just resources out there to help get and continue this problem. We've got to shed the light on these and turn these things off. But it starts with conversations with our neighbors and it starts with conversations like Dr. Carreiro and I are are having so really really appreciate your shedding light on this problem. Dr. Carreiro the problem will continue to improve as long as we keep talking about it. I'm really glad you brought it up.

Yeah I think that bringing the epidemic to the forefront has helped but again it has to. That discussion has to proliferate on every level. You know providers in the community and industry think that in order for us to be successful we need to look at addiction the same way that we look at diabetes or high blood pressure or other chronic diseases. We're not blaming the patient or blaming someone that we're actively looking for ways to mitigate or solve the problems.

Awesome. I totally agree. And what would you say one of your, you've done a lot of really awesome things and up to this point in your career. Dr. Carreiro, what would you say one of your proudest medical leadership experience is to date has been?

It's interesting so it's always exciting to see something that I have worked on it be a success. But I think actually what makes me the most and in my career is watching my evangelist or my junior colleagues that I've trained go out and solve problems and be successful on their own path kind of taking what they've learned from working with me and using that to dry and something because I feel I think this is a common theme in medicine because we would train people coming up. I feel like that's the most rewarding because then you can really see your work spreading and see younger people with new ideas flourishing. So that's been the most exciting for me.

So tell us a little bit more about an exciting project or focus that you're working on today.

So right now we're actually newest and I think one of my most exciting projects to date in is project using wearable sensors to evaluate people who are newly stuck on opioids to try to identify when patients are at risk for developing tolerance and addiction and potentially intervening before that happens. So all of my research to date has really use wearable sensors and mobile apps to monitor and intervene on patients who already had substance use disorder and are either actively using or in recovery. What we're doing now is we're taking all of that knowledge that we gained and all the data that we obtained and we're applying that much earlier in the spectrum before people become addicted to opiates. And to me that that's really exciting because the idea is that we can potentially prevent addiction from happening by studying how people physiology changes every time they are exposed to an opiate for the first time and really identifying when the risk of being on an opioid outweighs the benefit of the pain control that you're getting from it as a potential point of discussion between patients and providers when it's time to transition off it or when when that risk is too high.

Truly exciting and at the end of the project provision for it like what does this look like?

What I'd like to have as an end product of this is a wearable and app most likely wearable and app based combination that we can give to providers when they start patient on a new opiate. For example if a patient comes in and has a broken leg from a crack then obviously that's a painful condition in most cases would be reasonable to treat with an opioid if necessary. We'd like to have a product that the physician can use in the healthcare environment where they can watch closely how the patient's response changes to that opiates over the first couple days two weeks and then again have a discussion with the patient about when that potentially becoming too risky and potentially stop therapy before it becomes a problem.

Very cool. It's sort of opioid risk like real time screening tool.


Very cool. Very cool. And yeah you know just thinking through every patient's different. You really can't. It's not a one size fits all especially considering even on the back end of it when you're getting put down on your anesthesia every patient will take medications differently for sedation. So I think this is a really cool tool to use outside of the clinic when things do become a little more risky.

Exactly. And what we're noticing even in our preliminary data collection is that some patients show signs very early for example the first, second or third day after initiating opioid therapy. We're noticing some pretty big red flags in terms of risk whereas other patients can take them for a week and has no perceived change and no difficulty stopping the medication. So this really kind of plays into the idea of personalized medicine and really targeted therapy to meet people where they're at understand how or how their response is changing and how we can help that one patient.

Awesome. Sounds super exciting and dappling want to stay in touch with you as as you move that project forward. And when it does come out please share it with the listeners. We want to get you back on.


So Dr. Carreiro let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in medicine. It's the 101 of Dr. Stephanie Carreiro. So we're going to write out a syllabus and I've got four lightning round questions for you followed by your favorite book and podcast that you recommend to the listeners. You ready.

You're absolutely.

Awesome. What's the best way to improve healthcare outcomes?

Key is to get early involvement from all critical stakeholders and end users. So this will identify your barriers early on and also generate early investment in buy in from the people who live in the community that you want to adopt your ideas.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Definitely would be generating ideas in a vacuum and expecting success on the first try.

How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Too we're constantly looking for the next step and then using our data and our experience from prior successes to propel us forward.

And finally what's an area of focus that you think should drive everything in a health organization?

That would be collaboration. Absolutely. So kind of using the skill sets of others to create something that's better than you could come up with on your own.

And finally Dr. Carreiro, what book and what podcast would you put at the end of the syllabus?

Respect to the obesity epidemic specifically. I'm currently reading the book Dreamland which is eye opening even for someone who works with patients with addiction every day. So if you're interested in understanding how we get to where we are in the opiate that make I would definitely recommend checking that out.


In terms of podcast. Yup, the podcast I'm an emergency physician and so one my favorites actually emergency medicine abstracts on the em:wrap podcast that can help me keep up to date on all the current literature and there's a lot of great toxicology content on there as well.

What a great resource. Dr Carreiro, thank you so much for that. This whole syllabus is available. Just go to You're going to be able to find all of that there along with a transcript of our conversation, links to the things that Dr. Carreiro mentioned. So excited to have you check that out. So Dr. Carreiro, thank you so much for your time today. Before we conclude I'd love if you could just share a closing thought with the listeners and the best place where they could get ahold of you.

Absolutely. So the best place to get a hold of me. You could either follow me on Twitter and just at @dr_carreiro on Twitter or you can also check out my team and more about our research and who we are at, talks a little about about our research endeavors and also includes our newest philanthropic initiatives. The overdose prevention fund which is a phenomenal community and research oriented organization you can check that out and I appreciate the opportunity to talk to everyone. I would encourage people to dig a little more. The opiate epidemic is a fascinating issue and it will lead to more people thinking about creative solutions.

Outstanding Dr. Carreiro, so really want to just say thank you again and listeners feel free to follow Dr. Carreiro on her Twitter. She definitely posts some informative and engaging posts there and again just want to say thank you so much for spending time with us.

Great thank you, Saul.

Thanks for tuning in to the outcomes rocket podcast if you want the show notes, inspiration, transcripts and everything that we talked about on this episode. Just go to And again don't forget to check out the amazing healthcare Thinkathon where we can get together took form the blueprint for the future of healthcare. You can find more information on that and how to get involved in our theme which is "implementation is innovation". Just go to that's Be one of the 200 that will participate. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix



Recommended Book and Podcast:

Dreamland: The True Tale of America's Opiate Epidemic

Emergency Medical Abstracts

Best Way to Contact Stephanie:


Mentioned Link/s:

Episode Sponsor:


No comments exist
Outcomes Rocket - David Weingard

Fit4D is Improving the Lives of People with Diabetes with David Weingard, CEO and Founder of Fit4D

Thanks for tuning in to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to personally invite you to our first inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's a conference that the Outcomes Rocket and the IU Center for Health Innovation and Implementation Sciences has teamed up on. We're going to put together silo crushing practices just like we do here on the podcast except it's going to be live with inspiring keynotes and panelists. To set the tone, we're conducting a meeting where you can be part of drafting the blueprint for the future of healthcare. That's right. You could be a founding member of this group of talented industry and practitioner leaders. Join me and 200 other inspiring health leaders for the first Inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's an event that you're not going to want to miss. And since there's only 200 tickets available you're going to want to act soon. So how do you learn more? Just go to For more details on how to attend that's and you'll be able to get all the info that you need on this amazing healthcare thinkathon. That's

Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I really thank you for tuning in and I welcome you to go to where you could rate and review today's podcast because we have an outstanding individual and leader in healthcare. His name is David Weingard. He is the CEO at Fit4D. Their goal is to solve for diabetes medication adherence in a very unique way. And David's got a really unique background with the technology and sales background. Spent some time at Microsoft then went over to start his own company as part of the startup health moonshot to help the diabetes solutions. He's done some really great and innovative things that fit Fordie. So what I want to do is just open up the microphone to David so he could fill in any of the gaps and then we'll get into the diabetes discussion. So David welcome to the podcast my friend.

My pleasure. So great to be here.

Hey it's a pleasure to have you. And so what is it that got you involved in the health care, David?

So I got into health care because one day I went to my doctor and I had absolutely no energy stepped on the scale of 159 on a good day and I was 129 and I lost 30 pounds in three weeks. And the doctor told me I had type 1 diabetes. So my life changed at that moment. And I was completely overwhelmed. I've been an athlete my whole life been a runner. I had already done nine man track funm. No diabetes in my family. So I needed help. And the doctor was able to prescribe medication for me, insulin and given a point with his nurse the next day to learn how to take it. But I really needed somebody to help me through and educate me. I looked online a lot of good information out there wasn't personalized to me, went to the local hospitals and the next diabetes training classes were two months away. Wow. And I needed help now. And I was fortunate to meet a great diabetes educator a lady named Cecilia who took the time to personalize all that content online and make it meaningful to me. Give me the support, the compassion and really help me get to an empowered place in my life. And that really changed everything for me it was a magical experience. And from that I decided to dedicate my mission to improve the health of people with diabetes and leverage what I learned through Cecilia.

That's amazing. David. What an amazing story. And you know I could feel the confusion, the frustration and in come Cecilia and she just lights the path for you which is amazing right. And not everybody has a Cecilia and so it's interesting that that you were able to locate her and she was able to provide that insight for you. What do you think today is missing from the health system? What's a hot topic that needs to be on every medical leader's agenda?

Well when you look at the providers and ask them what's the number one thing they want to accomplish with their patients they say we want them to follow our care plan and take the medication and the number one thing they don't have time to follow up on is exactly that. So how do we deliver a value based service that makes it easier for the provider to deliver outcomes for their patients and to get them back into their office to take care of them. And so when you look at diabetes specifically this 30 million people in the United States with diabetes about 5 percent of them have type 1 like myself. Body doesn't create insulin anymore. Type 1 is also called juvenile diabetes. And the other 95 percent of Type 2 people with diabetes which is more what you hear about in the media about type 2. And you know when you look at the numbers and getting connecting those people with Cecilia's, there's maybe 30000 of them in the U.S. the only way to do that is with technology to scale Cecilia's so they could virtually meet the needs of the population. People are busy. They take care of their families their careers. How are they going to take the time off to get to a diabetes educator and how are they going to do all the work in a way that fits into their life? And so I think that's a huge issue is about fitting into people's lives making sure that they follow the care plan that the doctor prescribes and actually delivering measurable outcomes.

Yeah for sure, David. So on this topic give us an example of how you and your organization have created results by doing things differently.

So it's interesting if we take for example two different patients one is a mom who's taking care of her kids. You can't take care for diabetes till the evening something so simple as having diabetes educator on the phone or communicate through technology like e-mail and text when the kids are in bed is a way of fitting into the person's life you know rather than trying to figure out how to do it during the day or traveling to a doctor's office. The virtual component is really key. The other part is really personalizing to what the person needs the most. May have a patient that was diagnosed a specific diabetes medication and the side effect is nausea in the first 30 days. We can't really talk to them about improving their diet until you help them with what they're stuck on because they don't want to hear about it. They might not even take the medication or drop off because they're dealing with that nausea. So getting them through that issue and then moving to the things that you can try behavior change so the level of personalization making it meaningful. You know another example is someone who walks out of a doctor's office overwhelmed with a sense of failure maybe their grandfather passed away from diabetes. So again you have to have compassion and support and help them through that experience before you're going to help them learn how to take the medication. Do the behavior change that's critical to take care of the diabetes. Meeting people at where they are. It's one of the biggest lessons we've learnt.

So totally love the outline that you just provided, David. How do you guys meet people where they are? How do you do that?

So one of the things that are diabetes educators do me they focus on building trust with the patient and it's always the same. Diabetes educator that works with the patient. So if we're calling on behalf of a health plan we are saying you know what I got your back. Basically your personalized diabetes educator for the next X months. And people really resonate with that. They're not used to that level of service from their health plan or provider. They appreciate it because the patients are motivated to change. You just don't know how to do it. They don't either have the education or the time or they need somebody there to keep them accountable. And so what we make sure our educators do is they build a trusted relationship first solve for what the patient is stuck on and then start moving them through the diabetes journey. And that's an art. I mean it's taken us eight years of innovation and testing in the real world with big pharmaceutical clients, medical device clients, health plans. How do we do this in a way that not only creates trust but is scalable. There's a lot you can pay clinicians ten different ways if they are with 10 different patients. How do you do in a way that is scalable drives return on investment for the clients the is measurable outcomes. That's the art and that's really what we spent most of the time on during our innovation years.

That's fascinating. Now listeners David and his team are doing some outstanding things. They recently made an announcement of an expansion with Humana to deliver personalized diabetes coaching in South Florida. David you want to dive into a little bit of that and kind of give the folks some insight into what you guys are doing over there?

Sure. So if you look at Florida as an example one out of every four people in Florida have diabetes.

One out of every four. Is that right?

Yeah. It's a large part of it is that there's such a large senior population and type 2 diabetes usually progresses as people get older. But we really these people are overwhelmed and even if they can visit the doctor and they have the mobility to do so and the support system they really need somebody that's going to get to know them and motivate them and help them through the questions and their stocks around some of the things we've talked about so far the medication. How do I change my diet? How do I integrate exercise at my age? There's so much education that needs to be done. So Humana recognized that there was a need. The providers were completely overwhelmed to our earlier point of you know the number of diabetes patients and how did they get them educated and on a healthier direction without spending hours that they don't have per patient of their own. And so Humana stepped up to deliver this service to for their benefit to lower costs and improve quality measures and for their members benefit for that to improve their health. And so we're really the provider that's delivering the service. And it's a win for the physicians it's a win for the patients and it's a win for Humana.

That's amazing. So just want to say congratulations to you guys on that partnership but also the bigger picture you know helping this population that is that is struggling and that is Unnur served in a really big way. So it's a big kudos to you and your team, David.

Thank you. We're making a difference every day and it's one of our core values is the passion we have for members and it's really incredible to see how lives can be changed.

Let's zoom into that a little bit more. Maybe this example or maybe another example that you guys have changed lives. Can you tell us a little bit about how you guys have improved outcomes?

Absolutely. So this a clinical measure called A1C which is the average blood sugar level over three months and that is from Medicare it's a triple weighted quality measure in the commercial population it's a key measure that the commercial population uses to measure the likelihood of diabetes complications. People don't die from diabetes they die from or have complications because of related things like heart a heart attack or a neuropathy where they lose feeling in the nerves and the fingers or in the feet. And so A1C is a key measure to see how diabetes health is progressing over aid is considered poorly controlled. So we'll work with health plan or watch provider group to take their patients that are poorly controlled and work to do the behaviour change to get them on the medications and get that agency measure down in one population we work with. We were told that the patients were all on an oral diabetes med and when our diabetes educators got to work we found out they were prescribed mealtime insulin as well which you know gets into a lot of medical science here but basically a mealtime insulin covers the food that you're eating. So when you eat carbs you need insulin to cover those carbs so you're enjoying the meal. And these patients didn't want to take the injection they didn't know why it was important and just want to stick with the pill. And by getting these patients to recognise the importance of taking the insulin we were able to change the A1C measure and deliver quality measures lower costs and get the patients healthier.

Amazing. What a success story and something as simple as finally looking through what was going on. Identifying the problem and just communicating it being that that heart and that voice to be present during that care scenario at the home. So I really appreciate you diving into these very personal and impactful moments that you guys have been a part of David. In your mind to date it hasn't always been smooth, what would you say a setback that you guys experienced as you guys developed the company and what did you learn from it has made you guys stronger?

Well I think when I go back to eight years ago the health care landscape especially for innovation wasn't as mature or resilient as it is today. So we went to look for funding and we were basically told unless we were a million multimillion dollar business we wouldn't be able to raise money and it was true. So we went out and we delivered results by signing real paying clients where we innovated while we got paid and we were all we showed that we were results based and were able to innovate while we engaged in the market. Nowadays you can kind of get a startup amount of capital to begin testing but frankly I'm glad we did it this way because by the time we finished our art of signing multiple clients and growing up business, we had real data in the real world as opposed to just small pilots here and there.

That's amazing. So you really were just forced into signing your clients and delivering value ASAP and that was character forming.

It was great and it built the cultural business one of our five core values as being results based, on being results based for our clients delivering return on investment and quality. Another one is compassion for our patients so these really develop during these years and getting things done.

Love it. Hey have you ever read shoedog?

I Haven't.

You haven't I think about that because it just kind of resonates. You know those guys. Phil Knight and his team. Man, they were struggling they winning they couldn't get money from any banks and that was one and their one of their tough spots and with much grit and focus and vision just like you guys have that Fit4D. Much to your credit they were able to persevere and now look at them. So I think it's so awesome. Appreciate you sharing that story with us and listeners. The takeaway here is don't lose sight of your regime. Keep working at it and get those results. The money will follow. David you say one of your proudest medical leadership experiences to date is?

We have a system in our company where we share with our clients the best call the week. And I wouldn't say there's one particular call but it's the process of capturing those magic moments and sharing the wins with our health plan clients where we have patients who are literally crying on the phone for help and how they'll then subsequent calls saying how we change their lives. And those are the kind of things that we've learned to capture and share and treasure. And then it's you know simply things like understanding culture and language. We have now not only life in English but in Spanish and Chinese. And to understand.


You know if you're going to guide people to even within a Spanish culture speaking culture to a taco it should be a Mexican Spanish speaking person as opposed to what we deal with here in New York which is mostly Dominican Spanish so the patients really appreciate that their clinician understands them understands their socio economic background and it's not just reading from a script. They're really authentic and really trying to help them in a very personal way.

Amazing. I love that David. And definitely something to be proud of. And you know I love that you mention that you know systematizing these magic moments rather than just experiencing them like let's let's find a way to capture them. And that's really thoughtful because being in the trenches it's easy to lose track. And so where did the inspiration to start documenting these and saving them come up from.

It actually came up from one of our clients they said you know we'd love to hear it. And this goes back maybe four years ago and said that's great let's do it. And we started realizing the power of both at a client level and also internally.

I think that's so great something that we can all take a note from. Tell us a little bit about an exciting project or focus that you're working on today, David.

So we continually enhancing our platform to be able to scale our clinicians and one of the things that we're being asked for is not only to help with diabetes but comorbidity as well. So a lot of the same patients who were dealing with diabetes were also dealing with cardiovascular disease. And so there's a slice of the population that we can help at a much deeper level and so continue to innovate. There is a big focus when you look at a health plan that's 18 percent of patients account for 40 percent of the costs. And for us to be able to focus on that 18 percent which is really the hardest part of the existing care management programs that sees management may help someone out there may help the core population. But the chief medical officers are really struggling with the people who are poorly controlled and an 18 percent. And so branching out with diabetes and cardiovascular as exciting new opportunity for us.

That's awesome man. And with the success you guys have had in the core offering I'm sure that will definitely be another area of high impact. So excited to keep up with the things that you guys do and and really look forward to hearing more about that. David let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course and what it takes to be successful in diabetes and in medicine. It's the ABCs of David and so I'd like to write out a syllabus with you today. I've got four questions, lightning round style followed by a book that you recommend to the listeners. You ready?


What's the best way to improve healthcare outcomes.

Human touch, trust, leveraging technology. After building trust by the human being.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

To rely on apps or web sites to change behavior.

Love that one. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Teamwork and communication and learning every day.

What's one area of focus that should drive everything in your organization?

Patient care. The outcomes of the patient drives everything.

And what book would you recommend to the listeners as part of the syllabus?

One of my favorite books is a book called Blueprint to a Billion. It's especially would be dear to anyone who's an entrepreneur or a business minded talks about getting marquee customers about building your board of directors. And it has a lot of data from the most successful companies about how they got to this spot that they are so highly recommended.

An amazing shared thank you for that. Definitely going to have the added to my list, David. And listeners don't worry about writing any of this down. I know David's provided so much value in this episode. Just go to and you'll be able to find all the show notes links to fit for DS website as well as a transcript of all the things that we talked about and links to the book. So David before we conclude, I love if you could just share a closing thought and the best place where the listeners can get a hold of you.

You know this has been great and health care is in such a state of transformation now and the pace of innovation is accelerating. That we're excited to be part of it and I encourage everybody to engage as a transform and be open minded to what's what's possible is our website. We also have a Linkedin community called Diabetes Innovation and a Facebook community. Love you to engage and if we can help you let us know.

Outstanding and David they could get a hold of those communities through your website. fit4d?


Outstanding David just want to say thank you again for spending time with us and we're excited with the stuff that you guys are doing to make the lives of people with diabetes better. Keep doing what you're doing man. The ripple effect is huge and we thank you for spending time with us today.

Thank you very much.

Thanks for tuning in to the outcomes rocket podcast if you want the show notes, inspiration, transcripts and everything that we talked about on this episode. Just go to And again don't forget to check out the amazing healthcare Thinkathon where we can get together took form the blueprint for the future of healthcare. You can find more information on that and how to get involved in our theme which is "implementation is innovation". Just go to that's Be one of the 200 that will participate. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix


Recommended Book:

Blueprint to a Billion: 7 Essentials to Achieve Exponential Growth

Best Way to Contact David:

Mentioned Link:

Episode Sponsor:

No comments exist

The World's First FDA Cleared Wrist Pulse Ox Sensor with Leon Eisen, Founder & CEO at Oxitone Medical

Thanks for tuning in to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to personally invite you to our first inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's a conference that the Outcomes Rocket and the IU Center for Health Innovation and Implementation Sciences has teamed up on. We're going to put together silo crushing practices just like we do here on the podcast except it's going to be live with inspiring keynotes and panelists. To set the tone, we're conducting a meeting where you can be part of drafting the blueprint for the future of healthcare. That's right. You could be a founding member of this group of talented industry and practitioner leaders. Join me and 200 other inspiring health leaders for the first Inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's an event that you're not going to want to miss. And since there's only 200 tickets available you're going to want to act soon. So how do you learn more? Just go to For more details on how to attend that's and you'll be able to get all the info that you need on this amazing healthcare thinkathon. That's

Welcome back once again to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring healthcare leaders. I really want to thank you for tuning in again and I welcome you to go to where you could rate and review today's program because we have an amazing guest for you today. His name is Leon Eisen and he's a Ph.D. inventor, entrepreneur and contributor to healthcare. He is most recently well known for the formation of Oxitone Medical where they invented the world's first FDA cleared risk sensor blood oxygen monitor without a bulky fingertip probe to meet the basic health care needs. Keeping people healthy or at home by providing hospital grade digital continuous care with AI capabilities. We're going to be diving into some of the things that went into that and the thought processes of how this could improve health care are a little bit later. But what I wanted to do is offer Leon the opportunity to fill in any of the gaps of the introduction. He is coming to us recording from Israel so a big thanks for jumping on with the time difference Leon. Welcome to the podcast and tell us a little bit more that you want the guests to know about you.

Thank you much. I think you'll said a lot about me even more that I could say about myself.

It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure Leon. There's no doubt you've done a lot in technology and also in medicine and I love to get a better understanding of what got you into medicine to begin with.

Oh it's interesting. After I graduated from PHD, I went to post doctorate research one of my friends just asked me to help with optical design of new redesigned sensor.


Device. And today this device is in the market by the way it's the only device on the market to measure hemoglobin. And I said okay, I can help you. So this way I get involved into a very interesting, very promising and very important for all of us healthcare business, technological business, technology business. So I was so much excited about doing and the building medical devices so I left my post doctorate research and joined this company. So I joined another company and another company like executive then my father just go out on the street being free hours discharge from the hospital.

My goodness.

I called our physician and ask him, so what happened? Why?


He said I don't know. I saw him three hours ago. He was great. I don't have any capabilities to check what happens in real time. So it will sound someone came it took 15 minutes to make some trash to measure all this stuff. Thank God, my father was still alive. But this was my humbling. So I have all capabilities, all knowledge even technology in my hands which I can use to monitor patient continuously did what happened before. Why can we monitor oil, engine, but why we cannot monitor continuously human being?

Totally agree. That's a great point.

So we decided to do something that's impossible. We decided to move graph, decided to start up oxygen sensors from fingertips to the reef. So this way it becomes very comfortable. It allows us to measure 24/7 and just we left the state we have about 2 middle patients under continues oxygen administration. That's really where fingertip device is 24/7 impossible to look to their fingers how they look like. So we decided to solve this problem before. So we are first on the market. Many, many companies just entered into this area. They decided to like Wombles for example failed to measure what pressure, glucose has always maintained patents to allow nothing except it. Will that work for us wireless sensors for oxygen monitoring, FDA cleared and by the way you take Apple with all noise around apple health care. There are no medical devices. You know oxitone is a world first FDA cleared medical device which measure pulse, rate, or medical grade.

And when did you guys get your FDA approval Leon?

But with did very complicated clinical trials in Colorado only two sites in the United States where you can make this iteration tests. Here are can come comparative test invasi oximeters.


Like my Seema like any medical like all other devices today fingertip devices.


The unit is just trial deals they didn't believe because they said many companies came to us, it doesn't work. We succeeded they checked it many times. And finally they said OK, it works. This is where technology, so this is literally technology without more than 5 portals ground paternalistic knowledge world wide and we're using very unique ways, unique configuration of sensors that nobody could repeat it.

Congratulations on the approval. When did it happen.

Exactly a year ago. By the way today I have my birthday.

Today is your birthday?


Happy birthday.

Thank you very much. Exactly at my birthday a year ago. We got FDA clearance.

Did you really? Talk about an amazing birthday gift. That's amazing. That is amazing. So big congratulations to you Leon. It's not easy to get approval especially on a device that others have tried to develop and have failed and so a year ago you got approval. What are you guys planning to do now?

We've planned this year on developing sales infrastructure. Because it's not just sale like other devices for atmospheric measurements. It requires some technical support. It requires continuous connection to the healthcare environment. We've developed finalized with portal patient or the patient application because I can't even tell you that some companies they are not ready to take wire to catch up this. It's such such a huge stream of data. They are all dedicated to omcethey are once we mainstream and by the way all these measurements you post when they feel that, they get measurement. In our case will whole digital continuous care. While the US entry into the digital continuous care. And what is the difference? The difference that each should have continuous care yoi have produce.


A lot of evidence base. So if you a once a day once a week, you cannot predict anything but it does have some impact on vital signs. And by the way we measure what oxygen saturation holds the rate activities, temperature, pulse rate variability so it's against stress. So we have the department continues potom of data. So if something changes, it's a blueprint or a patient like they may. And this is will be catch up in time.

It's definitely exciting. And so you're putting together the infrastructure you're putting together the platforms for for patient portals connectivity to help others do the digital continuous monitoring and definitely exciting for this technology to come forth. For you, Leon what would you say the future looks like? Let's call it five years from now. Where is this technology being used? How is it being implemented and who cares about it?

Very very difficult question because this creation belongs to resistance of the current medical system to new development of design and I think in any it's importance for high risk patients.


So the main important use case is the high risk patients recently discharged from the hospital. All we talk about hospital at home. So patient in stable going to the hospital to be admitted after the emergency room visits. They could be sent back home with the same level of hospital grade monitoring like they would have in the hospital. So I think at least acknowledge it. And by the way there are other companies like wide to come that they also they provide the digital continuous care or heg from that patch. Maybe she's not so comfortable like a small wrist watch made case it was. So there is some cohort of companies we should just write to all the right who the market with their medical system to accept our technology. Digital continuous not only monitoring because it's a digital continuous care. This is the hospital great care at home. So I see them move using these technology. We can move hospital care and monitoring to the home so we can remove or reviews hospital stay very dramatically because instead of whether we have to spend two days in the hospital just for measurements of vital signs I can pull up that they take off my small fingers to monitor. Everybody knows what to do and take oxitone, go home and continue the same level of care of monitoring. So we have three main changes that will happen and our technology will intensifie just readmission reduction, very low readmission and very low, very efficient readmission because all readmissions reduction to date has been very high new workload it's very high, very costly. In our case, everything happen automatically. So you have automated continuous door at the same time. You don't have to call every day to check the patient, to care to go to the patient every day, to ask what happened. Everything goes automatically up while you're waiting for that a lot. And a lot of cell will be before something happens. The other emergency room to hold. And then our water or another change it will be a real reduction. Will the hospital stay.

Well there's no doubt this technology will be providing a lot of benefits to patients to health systems potentially a big way to reduce costs. Right getting patients home faster and it's pretty exciting. Now maybe something that I'd love to hear from you Leon as the listeners also are working to bring forth their innovations. What would you share of a setback that you had in the long process to get this technology finally approved? Can you share a setback or a failure that you experienced and what you learned from that?

Well you do something new. You go through a hole pitfalls you can find it. So.

Yes a lot of pitfalls.

Doesn't allow the easy way, you know so if you have some pitfalls you will get in. So yes it is the real problem. Somebody said if it doesn't kill us, it make us stronger. So really we investigated each mistake. It was a mechanical mistake it was technical, it was optical, so everywhere. So we made a very small step then stepped back, step fast, step back. So we systemised all these mistakes, we build working system, working system I would say and this allows today to anticipate some mistakes and to avoid it.

Fascinating. And so there's no doubt Leon, you're a patient man.

Not sure.

You're a patient man with the vision. Right. And so folks if you're listening to this you know it wasn't an easy road for Leon to get to where he is now with him and his team finally having an FDA approved product and building systems to actually commercialize and distribute this product. It's Pptients. It's a vision. But to Leon's point it's also building the systems that are going to help you avoid the failures and the setbacks that you had to begin with. And so Leon really appreciate that share. What would you say today is your proudest medical leadership experiences that you've had?

I think I can just separate leadership, medical or executive or I don't know. So just have to move. We have to move all the time. We can't just watch what happens. Dawn Oh I do not have to move all the time and the leadership experience that once I stop, I lost a lot. Never stop it doesn't matter do we have money, do have customers. If you believe in what you're doing all of the world will follow you.

I love it. And this is such a great message. Leon I last week I had a chance to be at the Beckers healthcare meeting where I was able to hear both President Clinton and also President George W. Bush speak and they shared the same message and that message was stand for something, believe in something and stand for it and do something. So coming from two past presidents and also Dr. Leon Eisen I think it's piece of advice worth following. Listeners stand for something and do something and the world will follow you. Yeah very great share Leon. Very Great share. Tell us a little bit more about an exciting project within what you're doing now that you're so excited about and you want to tell the listeners.

This is still the same project to have to improve our device. And the more vital signs with and more capabilities and the most important we're going to launch sales this summer. Official sales.


Even from our website we have a long list of preorders. just from patients, from physicians, from institutes, universities and companies. And so our project today is to launch sale...

So being that it's an FDA cleared device. Do you need a prescription to have it or can patients buy it directly. How does that work?

Because you have 5000 K we need a prescription.

So you do need a prescription, nevertheless it's available. Once you have that prescription patients could buy it for themselves.

They could buy for themselves or insurance companies to provide, hospitals who provide them who tried different business models. Because again you don't have very well established business model yet though. So why. Because for example any proximeter is not induced by Medicaid or Medicare. It was reduced because while you do more so so be the whole use all at once a week measurements will pay for that. In our case another challenge would have to show that there is the real Weidensaul, we bring medical device or medical device in different level and we have to the reason why in this device and we have to get in there. And this is another project we are just getting started working on.

Excellent. Well we definitely wish you the best on this on this project. I mean you've been persistent even passionate and you've been consistent in your approach and I have no doubt you're going to succeed at this Leon. Now let's pretend you and I are building a leadership course on how to be successful in health care leadership. It's the 101 of the Dr. Leon Eisen. So we've got a syllabus. We're going to put it together four questions that are fast, lightning round questions followed by your favorite book that you recommend to the listeners. You ready.


Alright. What's the best way to improve health care outcomes?

To get patients involved.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

To accept industry resistance as no.

How do you stay relevant as an organization despite the change?

The whole world is changing.

And finally what's one area of focus that should drive everything in a health organization?

In our organization it's device.

What book would you recommend to the listeners, Leon?

I recommend Art of War by Sun Tzu. This book, I read every once a year. I read it again and again. I don't know, like bible. And every time it gives me inspiration and understanding how to fight.

That's wonderful. The Art of War and listeners. Don't worry about writing any of this down. You could find the show notes as well as links to all the things that we've talked about including links to Leon's company Oxitone medical as well as the link to the book that he just recommended and a full transcript of our conversation. Just go to You're going to be able to find all that there. Leon this has been a lot of fun. Really excited for the innovative approaches that you guys are taking. If you can just share a closing thought with the listeners and then the best place where they could get in touch with you to learn more.

Here's to follow. I very much appreciate our listeners for their time. So thank you very much. And what I suggest first of all, move all the time. Do not stop, if you have an idea, you have to start to elaborate this idea. I called business you around this idea so I'm open to any questions if you have something - starting from zero. Do something personal. I'm here for you.

Outstanding and Leon, really appreciate you spending time with us and looking forward to seeing your success and you to add value to the health system with this innovative technology. Thank you very much.

Thanks for tuning in to the outcomes rocket podcast if you want the show notes, inspiration, transcripts and everything that we talked about on this episode. Just go to And again don't forget to check out the amazing healthcare Thinkathon where we can get together took form the blueprint for the future of healthcare. You can find more information on that and how to get involved in our theme which is "implementation is innovation". Just go to that's Be one of the 200 that will participate. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix


Recommended Book:

The Art of War

Company website:

Episode Sponsor:

No comments exist
Outcomes Rocket - Edward Kliphuis

Insights on Digital Health Venture Capital with Edward Kliphuis, Investment Director at M Ventures

Thanks for tuning in to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to personally invite you to our first inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's a conference that the Outcomes Rocket and the IU Center for Health Innovation and Implementation Sciences has teamed up on. We're going to put together silo crushing practices just like we do here on the podcast except it's going to be live with inspiring keynotes and panelists. To set the tone, we're conducting a meeting where you can be part of drafting the blueprint for the future of healthcare. That's right. You could be a founding member of this group of talented industry and practitioner leaders. Join me and 200 other inspiring health leaders for the first Inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's an event that you're not going to want to miss. And since there's only 200 tickets available you're going to want to act soon. So how do you learn more? Just go to For more details on how to attend that's and you'll be able to get all the info that you need on this amazing healthcare thinkathon. That's

I really thank you for tuning in again and I welcome you to go to where you could write and review today's podcast because we have an amazing guest and an outstanding contributor to Health Care. His name is Edward Kliphuis. He's the investment director at M ventures. In fact he out of the four business units that they have there he is the investment director for new businesses. And so with that his responsibilities involve identifying key leaders, key talent's, key systems to help them elevate technologies that will help improve outcomes worldwide. He's also a board member at several different companies including Biolink, Wiliot, Medisafe, Akili and others. But I wanted to just give you a sneak peek into what he's doing and also just help you understand a little bit more about what Edward is up to by opening up the mic to him. So Edward welcome to the podcast my friend.

Thanks. Thanks. Great to be here.

It's a pleasure. Oh and the one thing that I did forget to mention is that Edward is in the fantastic country of the Netherlands. My heart, I left the piece of my heart in the Netherlands. Did some studies there and Edward, one of the most innovative countries in medicine overall I believe.

Yeah it's a small country. It's a rainy country. But I agree. I mean it's it's not a bad country to be in.

Very humble very humble. Anything that I was just in that intro.

Not at all not at all. I was just going to say maybe indeed for clarification purposes the new business' team indeed within adventures we are actually not affiliated with one of the business units of Merck. Basically we are affiliated sort of with the innovation side of things and scouting for all these blue sky opportunities. Basically if it's if it's crazy and if it's cool then and this the team you want to be with.

I love it. Well on the outcomes rocket Edward the listeners love crazy and cool and there ends for some really good stuff. So excited to dive into some of the the topics that we're going to cover today but before we get started I want to ask you what got you into the medical sector to begin with?

This is very good question and the answer is probably going to sound a little bit like do Guti or just like the fact that we can ultimately our product will further outcomes and hopefully make humans live longer make use of it better. And of course we want to make money along the way with our investments. But for me personally having a product that just does something good is very important.

Totally agree. You know it's doing the right thing and getting rewarded for it. So you guys work with a lot of companies there. How many companies do you guys work with.

In our portfolio, we currently have 35 active investments. We have about since we started in 2009 probably done 45 investments in total.


So it has been accelerating quite a bit in the last three years.

Amazing. So you're working with all these companies you've got the finger on the pulse on on different angles of healthcare out of all the things that you see this should be very interesting. What do you think is a hot topic that needs to be on every medical leaders agenda today?

Just speaking from my own agenda technology enabled healthcare. I'm a massive fan with the new business fund. We do quite a bit in digital health or as we go into technology enabled health care. If we think of a world that is moving towards outcome based payment I mean I know people have been saying this for the last 10 years but just with the Global Health conundrum aging population versus rising cost of healthcare technology is definitely the solution we believe. And so anything that basically furthers that the ad by smart TV stations around that's a data driven diagnostics smarter patient management different mood therapies to treat patients. All these things are a common theme for us. So technology with healthcare is definitely one of the key areas I would say to keep an eye on.

And Edward what a great topic. When you take a look at the different companies that are coming through the fund and who to pick who not to pick what do you find are some of the common challenges that the companies face with having a technology that's actually going to be adopted in scale? A common challenge?

To really quantifiably be able to improve patient outcomes in this sort of hybrid field but technology meet Healthcare there's a lot of wellness plays out there. There's a lot of really hardcore clinical plays out there. But in order to sort of circumvent those federal Trade Committee claims that went against the most of these for example by saying you make claims that you really can't prove we need to be able to prove the claims that we make and that in the end will really be sort of like proof of the pudding. And so that is oftentimes a challenge because as we know the regulators at this point are literally dropping regulation. How are they going to handle neural networks. It's not like with a small molecule where the chemical entity is fine. And we know exactly what we're pushing through a clinical trial. Here you have a diagnostic for example if you use a neural network to sort of like create a class of iron that constantly changes. How will the regulators handle that? I mean there's president but it's still fairly uncharted territory. So that is definitely a common challenge how to handle and how to navigate that that regulates ... to also get the claims proven in a correct way.

Yeah because at the end of the day you can't just go out there folks and say that you're doing something you're going to have to prove it and you're going to have to have those clinical trials you're going to have to have the evidence based results that Edward is talking about. I think that's a really, really great point Edward that you know oftentimes tech people that come into health care don't realize. So if you're a tech entrepreneur or even a large company wanting to get into this business think about what Edward just shared with us. You've got to be able to prove your results you can't just say that you have the results and then you've got to navigate the regulatory environment. So can you give us an example of of how your organization is creating results Edward? And maybe you could use a company that you're working with and what they're doing to do that?

I was hoping you were going to ask me this is a perfect perfect set up. So exactly I was going to use Akili as an example. I think these guys have executed at this point to, let's say the highest standard that is that is available in this industry.

And this is Akili right. So maybe you could give us a little bit on the background of Akili and then we could dive in. So the listeners know exactly where we're going with this. Akili is A K I L I. Right?

That's right.


A. K. I. L. I. Akili interactive Labs based out of Boston and San Francisco. The company is essentially developing a digital therapeutic and it should become the first fully standalone FDA approved digital therapeutic route. The way it's presented to patients is it's a computer game so it's an action video game and the idea is that it targets cognition and it modulates cognition. We have now proven in six different sets of patients in a quantifiable manner and so the first indication we're going for the label of a class to medical device is in ADHD, pediatric ADHD. So the company basically set up the technology in a way that it could be tested in a number of feasibility studies. The technology is essentially as I said a computer game that creates a close feedback loop between the game and the brain and thereby provides a very powerful stimulus on a continuous basis through multitasking intervention that creates neuroplasticity. So you could see this as as learning on steroids. So by playing 20 minutes a day, we are able to have regulate cognition with this potential FDA approved intervention. Now the founding research was published on the cover of Nature in 2013 under the title game Changer. And that was sort of, that serve as founding research for this company. So after that we deployed technology to a number of other indications. Going from a therapeutic to a potential disease management solution to a diagnostics device and the initial indication that we're going for approval for now is a therapeutic targeting cognition and A.D.H.D. And so what we've done here is a massive pivotal trial with 330 patients. It read out in December of last year and it shattered the primary endpoint.


That was brilliant because this is unprecedented it's never been done before.


And it autoregulate cognition. Now the difference between this for example and something like Ritalin is that Ritalin subdued patients like let's say across the board. So joining sits in his chair but he doesn't really is joining anyone.


With the game like this, we see that the journey is still a journey so he still might run around but he's able to concentrate and he's able to actually perform at task. This case it was over. That is the the variability of attention that was one of the points of the trial that is super boring. But he was able to actually perform this task and perform it in a significantly better manner than he was able to do before.


So what this suggests to us is that we are able to increase cognition in patients that are suffering from really impaired cognition.

That's so amazing. So OK Edward this is pretty awesome right. I mean. And to be honest with you this is one of the things that my wife and I talk about. I've got a son he's one year old. We think about how Ritalin is being prescribed like it's candy on Halloween. And to hear that there is an alternative in video game form to help them, these kids be able to concentrate better. I mean I got to tell you when you were telling me about this I got goosebumps. I just kept getting goose bumps.

I have to tell you I mean I've been playing the game and it's got to be prescription only. But I've been playing the game that is under development. But also let's say to follow on solutions and it's really cool. Like if people tell you it's a medical device you think to yourself is this really going to be a game? But this company is really build as a hybrid between a medical device company and actual gaming studio. So there's the gaming development team that have been poached from all the best game developers such as EA or iDOS. And so the game really feels good. It really plays well and that it's supposed to do good for you as well. I mean it's the best worlds.

That's outstanding. OK. Fantastic listeners if you want to learn a little bit more about this. The website is We'll post a link to that in the show notes here on on Edward's podcast so that you could go and click on it because it is fascinating. They've got super talented team over there and they're doing some pretty cool things. Edward, thanks for walking us through that. That's pretty amazing.

Yeah. You're welcome.

So that's a fantastic example of what you guys are up to. Can you share of a time when you guys made a mistake or had a set back and what you learned from that setback?

Yeah I mean the whole game of venture capital you're supposed to have setbacks right? I mean otherwise I think the doctrine is that you don't take enough risk. So yeah we've had setbacks luckily not so much in the digital realm yet. I will not name any companies because I don't think it's fair that some of the learnings that we had is that there is especially in the digital side of things. There's definitely a thing called the silicon valley effect. So oftentimes if you think about the monetization of a product if you think about how to monetize a service or a product a lot of Silicon Valley based companies aim to do this through for example larger corporates. Now then they're able to sign on the Ubers and Facebooks at this world and maybe the YouTubes. And that's interesting and that works. But then if you go to a company in the Midwest all of a sudden there is a different risk appetite in those firms for whatever solution this particular company will be offering. And so we've seen a couple of times where you know these outstanding digital solutions were just too far left field for some of these more traditional firms. And then the growth curve just strands.

So that's an example of okay you know what you have this very limited monetization strategy. What else can you back that up by it like are you diversifying your monetization strategy?

Right and maybe we use some of your heuristix for this internally. We like to think that that for us an ideal solution ideal quote unquote of course. I mean there's different shades of grey but an ideal solution quote unquote is something that would for example be able to be monetized through an entity with an economic interest in the offering. What I mean by that is something like a payer system.


Pharma company that ultimately would drive this because there is either a cost saving or revenue generating potential but it's quantifiable and in the second part of it is we like solutions that for example generate unique first party data but also provide stickiness and stickiness breaks you to third part because that stickiness is often dance is only achieved when there is a real improvement in the outcomes. So whatever the offering is if it is like a prediabetes solution for example targeting behavior change then we need to see that actually change is behavior is changed in certain populations and thereby for example people who were obese will drop in their BMI thereby going off the prediabetic scale and ultimately not becoming diabetic and that means that to date oftentimes is missing or has not been achieved yet. And then the risk is if we invest every works with diabetes companies the risk is that you're investing in maybe a company with a number of very good sales people because the real proofs let's say the solution is independent of the renewals.

Totally totally it goes back to the topic that we started talking about right? The whole proving your outcomes.

Right. Yeah absolutely.

Very cool. No that's that's a great callout Edward. Let's take a look at the other side of the coin here. Tell me about one of the proudest leadership moments that you've experience in this realm of investing and in the medical field?

That's actually an easy one again. I won't I won't call out the exact company but what happened was we were leading an investment in a company. We're based in Amsterdam and this was in a different time zone. So there's quite a difference. Co-leading in investment and through serendipity our co-lead unfortunately in last minute couldn't commit or couldn't step up. So we'd like to see ourselves as founder friendly investors. We back teams and entrepreneurs. First and foremost I mean technologies are also important of course but it's mainly the people for us that really make or break gates. So we were able to basically say to the team calm down. Nothing is going on here. We will make sure that we get this deal done. We get the investment done. We opened up our network and we managed within two weeks to basically get their routes filled out to the extent that it was something that was workable for everybody and the company is flourishing at the moment.

That's awesome.

So now we like to think that that was definitely a success story.

That's awesome. And Edward it oftentimes seems that it's those times that almost not going to work out that you have to get creative and figure it out that those moments are the ones that become your proudest moments.

Yeah absolutely. And this is also another thing we place particular emphasis on sort of like having this M. Ventures family if you will of all the companies and trying to get cross-fertilization between the different technologies and entrepreneurs. And we find that it's especially at these moments that really work well with making sure that there is ample attention for people's technologies for people's wishes and also for people's reward. Because in the end we want to repeat business with those people that have cooked up these brand new technologies.

Yeah for sure. I think that's smart. I think that's really smart. You guys are no doubt doing some really great things Edward. Tell us a little bit about an exciting project or focus that you guys are working on today if you can?

Yeah I can definitely as I mentioned I mean the field of biomarkers. And with that that's a novel biomarkers it's very very exciting. Biomarkers traditionally have been of course fairly straightforward from molecular biomarkers to things like movement or sweat or whatever. But the fact that we are now on the brink of being able to use voice for example as a biomarker or with a Akili where we use cognitive patterns as a biomarker or a company that actually I met today that is using smell as a biomarker but not just computerized like actual broken down on infection like that receptor level.


Those things are very exciting because ultimately this could prove to be one of these cases where you can have something in the background of let's say you've been diagnosed and now we need to know how you're coping with your drugs and with the state of your disease. You have your Alexa in the background in your room and Alexa that tracks whether you're doing well or not so well and before you have an event which could have not been presented before we get prompted or not. But the caregiver gets prompted. I managed to present that. So if it comes to outcomes we think that these things are definitely very interesting to sort of close to the ground patient.

That's pretty interesting Edward and listeners something to think about right. This realm of biomarkers is changing. You know it's no longer just samples that are taken from you in a test tube. This is expanding beyond what we all have traditionally thought about. So let's take these words from Edward and incorporate them into our day to day and just know that this realm is expanding and we're in a new age in technology, in health care and so that's pretty exciting Ed. Thank you for sharing that.

And if you'll allow me to add to that one of our portfolio companies Biolink is developing a micro needle based sensor patch. So this is a patch. It looks cool it doesn't look like a medical device. You jab it on your shoulder. The guys are coming from San Diego so they put on their wet suit they go surfing with it. It's there for a week and it basically sends us throughout this week number of biomarkers continuously in your interstitial fluid which is a proxy for blood. So in the first use case were going off with their glucose so you could think of instead of having to prick your finger with a finger stick or having to put the device on there like the above livre or the Dexcom device which are still rather invasive. You now have a simple factory calibrated patch that you put on that sentence continuously year trends and ultimately that gives insights that it could have never been given before. And this is something that we are very excited about. So it's not only to mobile biomarkers it's also to continue biomarks. So for the first time we get there's longitudinal data that we actually haven't been able to sort of gather before in some patients.

So rather than stick yourself to get the sample of blood it's a patch that monitors your glucose non-invasively?

Yeah that's right. And now I hear people thinking on the other end of this line probably that we've done before. But the thing here is yes it has been done before but not as easy as these guys, not factory calibrated and not as good looking I mean the devices just look damn sexy.

Is it comfortable.

It Is. It is absolutely.

Very cool. Very cool. Another interesting company folks that one's that biolinq, with the q, Check them out. Edward, no doubt. You guys are doing some cool things. We're getting close to the end here. This part of the podcast is where we do a lightning round. Let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in the business of healthcare. The ABCs of Edward. So I'd like to write out a syllabus. I've got four questions for you followed by your favorite book and your favorite podcast. Are you ready.

Oh boy. Let's go.

All right. What's the best way to improve health care outcomes?


Get it taken care of before it happens. What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Not being able to execute.

How do you stay relevant as an organization. Despite constant change.

Getting young people and people coming in we do that here as well. Kick the tires and question things and ask why the hell you do certain things?

What's one area of focus that should drive everything in a health focused organization?

Again execution just get shit done and of course there is always a focus on. Don't get me wrong. Don't go too fast but don't get sidetracked. Either have an objective and go for it.

Excellent. And what book would you recommend to the listeners?

Okay this is going to be controversial and what one of my favorite.

Bring it on. Bring it on Edward.

Is the Fountainhead. Now I know a lot of people think oh my god. Ayn Rand. What does he say. But the reason why is because it has a very I think interesting message and that is that the only way to really drive progress is to do something that you yourself believe in and if you translate it even a bit further. Those who want to be successful have to really out of the crowd. That is the incentive of the crowd to get that person down to make the rest of them. Again having the ability because everybody who was then mediocre is then all of a sudden as successful as the rest and has potential to be successful. My point of that is don't be afraid to be successful don't be afraid to be different. Don't be afraid to go into a direction and to fail and that is something that ultimately drives and creates this change.

What a great message Edward listeners do not be afraid. You've got to stick to what you're doing. Be strong in your in your efforts. I think that's such a great message Edward. What podcast would you recommend.

Of course this one. How could I recommend another one.

Thank you. Thank you. This is awesome thank you so much for that listeners. Don't worry about writing any of this down. Just go to and you're going to find all of the show notes as well as links to the fountain head. Links to the companies that Mr. Kliphuis talked to us about. And so just go there and check it out Edward, before we conclude I would love if you could just share a closing thought with the listeners. And then the best place where they could get a hold of you.

So the closing thought will be and that is something a quote that is very big on our wall here in Amsterdam, "Feel the fear and do it anyway". That is definitely a mantra of our team. In terms of contact details. Feel free to e-mail me at If that was true fast please go to our Web site, and you will find all the contact details there.

Beautiful. Edward, This has been a blast. We really appreciate the insights that you shared with us your passion for technology and health care and I'm really excited to keep up with you and the companies that you're working with so keep up the great work and let's stay in touch.

Absolutely fantastic. Thanks for having me. And this has been very fun.

Thanks for tuning in to the outcomes rocket podcast if you want the show notes, inspiration, transcripts and everything that we talked about on this episode. Just go to And again don't forget to check out the amazing healthcare Thinkathon where we can get together took form the blueprint for the future of healthcare. You can find more information on that and how to get involved in our theme which is "implementation is innovation". Just go to that's Be one of the 200 that will participate. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix


Recommended Book and Podcast:

The Fountainhead

Outcomes Rocket

Best Way to Contact Edward:

Mentioned Link/s:

Episode Sponsor:

No comments exist
Outcomes Rocket - Blake Marggraff

Leveraging Data and Practitioner Insights to Improve Outcomes with Blake Marggraff, CEO at Epharmix

Thanks for tuning in to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to personally invite you to our first inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's a conference that the Outcomes Rocket and the IU Center for Health Innovation and Implementation Sciences has teamed up on. We're going to put together silo crushing practices just like we do here on the podcast except it's going to be live with inspiring keynotes and panelists. To set the tone, we're conducting a meeting where you can be part of drafting the blueprint for the future of healthcare. That's right. You could be a founding member of this group of talented industry and practitioner leaders. Join me and 200 other inspiring health leaders for the first Inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's an event that you're not going to want to miss. And since there's only 200 tickets available you're going to want to act soon. So how do you learn more? Just go to For more details on how to attend that's and you'll be able to get all the info that you need on this amazing healthcare thinkathon. That's

Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I really thank you for tuning in again and I welcome you to go to where you could rate and review today's podcast because we have an outstanding individual in health care. His name is Blake Marggraff. He's the CEO at Epharmix. Over at Epharmix, they're focused on keeping the toughest and most expensive 20% of patients in touch with their outpatient care teams at risk bearing health organizations. They're really focused by using their digital health platform to make this hard to take care of group even easier to take care of and to take costs out of the equation all at the same time while improving outcomes. He worked so hard to do this. We had his co-founder and chief medical officer Avec Sam on the podcast and I'm thrilled to be able to have Blake carve out some time with us on the outcomes rocket. Blake, welcome to the podcast my friend and maybe fill in any of the gaps that I missed in your intro.

Thank you, no, say it's a it's it's a pleasure to join today. My background is still relatively brief and I'm 25 years old and my passion in healthcare started kind of paradoxically when I moved from through medicine research into the technology side of things back in 2011. I ended up participating in a winning something called Intel Science Engineering Fair and that frankly it gave me the chance to meet folks like folks like you and having conversations. I mean you're surrounded by these mind that Medtronic right. But it is pretty rare to have conversations about things that are impactful but impactful and really scalable way. And I fell in love with the idea of spending every moment that I could. Working not just on making the world a better place for some people but for as many people as possible and jumping to the point really the two ways to do that or help people live better lives or to help people live longer lives and health is two birds with one stone in that regard.

That's awesome Blake. You know you guys are so passionate about what you do there at Epharmix and there's no doubt your leadership and what you bring to the table is a big part of that. What today in your mind is a hot topic that needs to be an every medical leaders agenda. And how are you and your team at Epharmix tackling that?

Oh great question. So I'm first going to stand on my soapbox for just five seconds. I think that a lot of folks cite AI as the hot topic of the day and really artificial intelligence machine learning those are means to an end and multiple ends, right? I think that the real hot topic the crux of it is data and specifically the rare data that enables those AI engines if you will to run the most powerful way possible. So my focus and I think for a lot of health care leaders should be focused is on asking the right questions and then collecting the pertinent data to help inform the answers to those questions. That's why our team is focused on not just all the data we can get but the right pieces of data.

Getting the right data. And it's not easy right? And so maybe you could talk to us about what you guys are doing at Epharmix to get clean data and how you're doing it and maybe some of the results that have come out of that.

Absolutely. So Epharmix keeps the toughest patients engaged for a really long time. As you said and it turns out that it's pretty easy to get most patients to answer a few questions once or twice. It gets much more difficult when you look at engaging chronically ill especially poly chronic populations that are not tech and able and you keeping those patients engaged for months or years on it. And that's where we specialize. So by the numbers Epharmix has more than 63% engagement for a full 52 week window. We're over 50% engagement for 100 weeks. So pushing that 2 year mark which is pretty striking given that in some of our populations the average income is $12,000 a year and I think very humbly made made all the more impressive by the fact that independent clinical researchers now shown that Epharmix tools drive real outcomes when combined with care management. It's not just Epharmix but Epharmix is a necessary piece of that puzzle. And an example there we reduce the hospitalization likelihood for COPD patients versus control by more than 60% drop A1C for patients with diabetes by more than one absolute percent. So starting with an A1C of over eight even help get hypertension patients under control and moving about half of the hypertensive patients back into the prehypertensive state. And we do that to your point and to your question by not just asking all the questions that we could ask but instead by almost sniper picking the right questions and collecting those rare data that are then related to the care teams. The care team can reach out use their clinical expertise and inform care.

That's pretty cool Blake. And so you guys have a very thoughtful approach. You're getting results. The evidence is is in the numbers. You've also been featured in a lot of different publications like entrepreneur Moby health news, Bekkers and so you're definitely creating some traction out there and you're getting some attention through the process. What would you say has been one of the key learnings right I think as the listeners that tune in that our digital health entrepreneurs they are going through the trenches and the peaks and so maybe you could share with us a time when you had a setback or a failure what you learned from that and what you do now as as a result of it?

Just picking one time as the challenge to spend at least 15 minutes those since my last one so I'd say a theme of failures. Not only that we've experienced to be Epharmix but I think that a lot of folks coming in to try to be really good industry partners struggle with is health care is not a turnkey industry. Most enterprise sales have some level of complexity but I would say that healthcare has to rival the most complex ones. So going in and saying we have this fantastic software as a service offering we're going to throw it over to you. You're going to buy, you're going to pay us money then we're going to stay hands off and watch it as it delivers tons of value. That's unrealistic to say. So big failure is acting that way. And then of course the converse of that is by being really hands-on, by treating every health system has its own unique entity with its own flaws and opportunities. We can help them succeed. Maybe a more specific failure. I think something that's fascinating on the research and development side is Epharmix also supports populations such as Mothers on Medicaid or feeding postpartum depression and a number of other related indications or stages. And our first attempt at EPX breastfeeding which was intended to increase the number of months for which a new mother would breastfeed her first child. That first attempt flopped. So it was a blaze of failure. It was incredible. Folks stop using it within days the feedback was that it was almost offensive and we were applying all of our best design practices to this. Right we gone through the same. So we pulled back really embraced the patient centric design mentality. We even brought in ... to begin providing feedback on the product. And finally landed on something that wasn't good academically or at least wasn't driven by the academic best practices but was instead driven by real feedback from those new mothers and the folks who helped support them right after you know immediate postpartum. And it was night and day. The engagement the theme.


That suddenly became a tremendously positive,so.

That's such a great share Blake and friends. You listen to Blake's passion you know even when he's talking about his setbacks he's engaged he's all in and you know this topic of high tech versus high touch. There's no versus. You got a little bit of both. If you're going to really succeed in this field and for those thinking that they could just throw on software and walk away like Blake said you're making a big mistake. So Blake I'm glad you highlighted this very common misconception that people make when they come from tech into health. And it seems like it's something that you guys learn very quickly and you're implementing very quickly as well to scale.

I appreciate that. Hopefully we keep learning more and more.

Hey Blake, so tell us about what are your proudest leadership moments to date with Epharmix?

We've helped a lot of patients. Well into the high thousands of patients now across the range of disease states and I think one of the most impactful moments was early on as a team. But you won't have a company and now we're more than two and a half years old and we had just closed one of our first commercial customers and one of the care managers shot an email to one of our managers saying hey I have some feedback for you. Essentially explains that Epharrmix had helped a patient who later admitted that he had given up on his self and helped the patient to begin tracking blood sugars. You know really simple just basic diabetes management and had really fundamentally changed the trajectory of that patients health by empowering the patient which was our focus really is sustainable outcomes long term outcomes. But seeing that shift in someone who frankly had been failed by the healthcare system not through any malice but simply as a result of the of the conditions and incentives that surrounded that patient. That was pretty powerful. That got smiles on our faces for a few days afterward.

That's awesome. Yeah and you know specially when you're impacting the lives of people and you're seeing them come through your system and you know that you're actually making the lives of folks better. There's nothing more awesome than to be able to do that. So within Epharmix, you guys are working on a lot right? You already have a lot of specialties that you focus on. But what would you say today is one of the most exciting projects or focuses that you're working on?

Sure. So a couple of categories. One is really making the most of the rare data that we have and that generally means we have an excellent tool for patient engagement and we're able to drive outcomes as a result of that long term engagement. But the next two stages are predicting adverse outcomes and then helping prevent those outcomes. So a lot of team energy in the background goes to baking those capabilities into product. For instance we have a couple of publications in the pipeline that show really compelling outcomes you know meaningful, high area under curve predictions with relatively straightforward machine learning models and we find the right model out of dumpsters that we try that can even predict for instance suicidality within a set timeframe for a pediatric Medicaid population or adolescent population really really powerful predictive models. That's one category. I mean it's amazing what you can do if you have the right data at the right time. The other area that's got me very excited is helping to make scalable some of those. As you would say high touch elements of service delivery. Right. So we have these fundamentally very strong, very robust product that helps care teams keep patients engaged. But what can we do to go upstream and make sure that patient enrollment and initial engagement is painless almost enjoyable for the provider and then go further downstream and deliver insights almost management oriented analytics to the economic buyer to the V.P. or the management level individual to not only showed that Epharmix is delivering value but also help them make strategic decisions based on those trends. So that upstream downstream I'd say it's another form of vertical integration of our product and our service offering that's got me pretty excited.

That is pretty exciting Blake. And as you look at you know you guys are focused so clearly on getting the right forms of data. What would you say a good thing that health leaders need to focus on to get that data and maybe not just health leaders but also other tech companies right. How do you ask the right questions and how do you come up with those questions?

Fantastic question. So that cuts to the research and development approach that Epharmix uses to try increasingly convinced it's a very strong way to build a product especially for a complex industry like healthcare which is a combination of standing on the shoulders of giants do a literature review understand what's already out there and then be comfortable iterating and failing and iterating and failing through until you have product is demonstrating itself and its value. In other words start with the best possible position you can, learn from the experts and then go through the process yourself embrace the experimental method and I would say to folks who are looking at all of the data that come from their AHRs all the way to hopefully potential partners such as Epharmix in the industry that are smaller innovators lean into the real reality that you will fail 85-90% of the time and that only by going through that process until you have a solid product can you deliver real value to your own workers.

That's pretty cool Blake and what I love about what you guys are doing while you're a young organization. You guys are so focused on delivering value and putting together those randomized controlled trials and implementing the solutions to your different partners that you already partnered with. And it's so cool to have met you guys two years ago and now seeing where you're at today is just so awesome you know so.

I appreciate that. You've been there for pretty much the entire Epharmix story come to think of it.

And it's pretty cool you know. And I love seeing young companies succeed and there's no doubt in my mind that if you guys keep doing the same thing you're going to keep having the success that you've had early on.

I appreciate that.

So let's dive into the 101 course of Blake Marggraff. This is where we are is where we talk through what it takes to be successful and healthcare through business and technology. And so we're going to write out a syllabus using some lightning round questions I've got for them for you. And then we're going to follow that with a book and a podcast that you recommend to the listeners. You ready?


Awesome Blake. So what's the best way to improve health care outcome?

I think the single best way is to intelligently distribute risk and I say that because right now when you look at the perverse incentives that arise there are usually there because either over a certain period of time or just an order of magnitude risk is not distributed among all stakeholders.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Don't assume people want to change let alone that people will change if given the opportunity and when you're making clinical improvements. Keep that in mind.

I love that Blake spoken from experience right.

Unfortunately, yes.

And listeners if you're hearing this is all too common with new products and health care do not assume people want to change and Blake I'm glad you brought that out. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

So this one kind of has a logical corollary that's pretty obvious I guess which is make yourself irrelevant as long as you're the one making your previous so obsolete then almost the fact that you'll continue to grow and prove it.

Love it. Why and what is one area of focus that should drive everything in healthcare?

So I have to say we're all speaking the same language here from outcomes rocket. It's sustained outcomes. It's driving meaningful clinical value and thus financial value and not only driving it for weeks or months but for years on it.

And finally what book and what podcast would you recommend to listeners on the syllabus Blake?

So Peter T.L. released a book that was co-written by Blake Masters called Zero to One which stands out and says one of my favorites. And I'd say in terms of podcasts I'm going to go away from the healthcare side just a little bit and recommend to all who had not discovered it yet Radiolab which I can describe as morphiscience fantastic treasure trove of mental models and an impactful memorable stories.

Amazing sounds very intriguing one that I'll add to my list and it's called Radiolab?


Awesome. Fantastic. Listeners, there have it. You have the one on one of Blake Marggraff and also some of the best resources in the industry here that he just shares some great resources and also we'll have the transcript there for you. Just go to Blake M. and you'll be able to find all that there. Blake, great times here with you today. Before we conclude I love if you could just share a closing thought and then the best place for the listeners could get a hold of you.

For everyone out there who's part of a team leading a team anything consider asking yourself and your team the simple question. If we weren't already doing X would we start doing it today? And I think a lot of a lot of the fundamental flaws in health care would at least be solved a little bit. If folks would ask that question and getting in touch is pretty easy. We've made my email very tricky it's Drop me a line and I'd love to set-up time or follow the company or me at Epharmix or at @blakemarggraff.

Oustanding Blake. Listen this has been a blast. Really appreciate the time that you spent with us today. Folks if you haven't checked them out Epharmix they're doing some pretty amazing things so definitely check out the show notes, click on that link. Find out what these folks are up to because they're really taken health care to the next level and Blake again, just wanna say thank you on behalf of all of us my friend.

Thank you all. Really a pleasure. Appreciate it.

Thanks for tuning in to the outcomes rocket podcast if you want the show notes, inspiration, transcripts and everything that we talked about on this episode. Just go to And again don't forget to check out the amazing healthcare Thinkathon where we can get together took form the blueprint for the future of healthcare. You can find more information on that and how to get involved in our theme which is "implementation is innovation". Just go to that's Be one of the 200 that will participate. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix


Recommended Book and Podcast:

Zero to One: Notes on Startups, or How to Build the Future


Best Ways to Contact Blake:


Mentioned Link/s:

Episode Sponsor:

No comments exist
Outcomes Rocket - Amani Zayani

Diabetes Medication Adherence Made Simpler with Amin Zayani, CEO at MedAngel

Thanks for tuning in to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to personally invite you to our first inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's a conference that the Outcomes Rocket and the IU Center for Health Innovation and Implementation Sciences has teamed up on. We're going to put together silo crushing practices just like we do here on the podcast except it's going to be live with inspiring keynotes and panelists. To set the tone, we're conducting a meeting where you can be part of drafting the blueprint for the future of healthcare. That's right. You could be a founding member of this group of talented industry and practitioner leaders. Join me and 200 other inspiring health leaders for the first Inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's an event that you're not going to want to miss. And since there's only 200 tickets available you're going to want to act soon. So how do you learn more? Just go to For more details on how to attend that's and you'll be able to get all the info that you need on this amazing health care thinkathon. That's

Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast. Today I have an outstanding guest for you. His name is Amin Zayani. He's out of Berlin Germany. He's the CEO of MedAngel. I mean is a very interesting individual because he's a patient entrepreneur. He has lived with Type 1 diabetes since 2006. He's a solar energy engineer by training and a hardware expert by trade. After a frustrating accident in 2013 when his insulin was frozen in a domestic refrigerator he became discovered a massive flaw in the way that medications are stored and handled at home. And he decided to found MedAngel to solve that problem. Since then he's received the patient Entrepreneur Award by Novo Nordisk and life bulb in 2017. This award is given to patients that innovate technologies to make life exponentially better. He's currently leading a team of engineers, pharmacists and designers to revolutionize the interaction of patient medication and bring peace of mind to everybody. And so what I want to do is give him a warm welcome and open up the microphone to fill in any of the gaps of that introduction. Amin such a pleasure to have you on the podcast my friend.

Thank you, Saul. Thank you for having me. It's an honor to be on this podcast. I'm a huge fan. I think my bio does me more than justice, it's very flattering. Thank you so much. I wouldn't do anything except that I wouldn't be here without the outstanding work of my incredible team. And this is not a one man show. This is teamwork and they deserve all the credit. I'm just here behind the mic. It's a team of operational people business, finance, designers, engineers, pharmacists. Most importantly our investors, angel investors and institutional investors so they just get all the credit.

That's awesome now for sure, Amin. There's definitely no way we could do it without the help of an outstanding team and your team is top notch over there. What is it that makes you your patient. You live with type 1 diabetes. What was that one thing that that got you to say you know what I'm going to get involved?

It's pretty simple but before I really would like to highlight that I don't like the term patients or patients for people who go to the hospital with a sickness. When you live with type 1 diabetes or other chronic conditions you're a healthy individual who lives with a let's say a health condition or a metabolic disorder. So it's extremely important. I know it may sound a little bit too strict but I think it's important that in this space and in this scene as professionals we should push for this and advocates for this language is extremely important.

I think it's a good call out I mean it's a great callout.

Thanks. Thanks a lot. So to answer your question how would decide to get in the medical sector. Two reasons. The first is when you get an autoimmune disease like type 1 diabetes you don't have a choice. You have to become a health professional or expert of some sort. To manage it right, type 1 diabetes is a 24/7 condition that requires real time management. It's not an injection a week. It's really every bite you eat every effectivity just so you have to it's not like you have a choice. And the second trigger for me to make it a full time professional occupation is frustrating an accident. I had in summer 13. I woke up with my blood glucose was really high. I took a shot to bring it down and it didn't work. It took a couple of other shots, I took a new too pentrum to fridge nothing worked. I ended up in the emergency room and I was so frustrated at the end everything was fine. So they sent me back home with a fresh batch of insulation and luckily I didn't get any complications. But I was really really frustrated and really wanted to know what went wrong because if I don't know the cause of the problem it will happen again. And it was a Saturday and Saturday is a horrible day to have a medical emergency in Germany. Probably in most countries in the world. So it was a really frustrating situation and to make a long story short, I started troubleshooting and they traced the problem to my fridge my refrigerator, froze my insulin it's a fridge that freezes everything during the night was closed and there was no way to find it. And I thought it was ridiculous. I thought that's the year 2013. It's really funny because the night before we were watching a recording of NASA robot landing on Mars. So after that I thought it was ridiculous that I can see the landing of robots on the foreign planet in real time. But I don't know if my insulin is still effective or not in my refrigerator at home so I thought it was silly. It was ridiculous and also to make a long story short. This became my I decided to solve this problem because there was no solution on the market and this is how MedAngel was born and this is how I have to become an expert of some sort and medical design and technology.

Quite a story. I mean and I appreciate you sharing that. And you're right. You know we don't have to tolerate low standards. And I love that you stepped up. There was a solution and you decided to build one. So maybe for the for the sake of the listeners that don't know as much as you or I about your company since you already had a had a chance to educate me on it what does MedAngel do. What are you guys focused on?

Okay well thanks for asking this question that Asia is a very simple and elegant solution to a major problem. So what we do is we give medications or in the case of diabetes insulin the ability to communicate and react with people who use it is the most important of my relationship with my insulin is the most important relationship in my life. Without it I'm dead. But Mycenaean does not communicate with me so I'm the guy who does all the work here. It's a dysfunctional relationship somehow and with MedAngel we give the medication entirely. In my case a voice a way to interact. The solution is consists of two parts: a hardware component to smart sensor that is placed with the medication either on the go into the they carry with me every day or in the refrigerator. My stock is continuously monitors the temperature and communicates with an app on my phone. All the magic happens on the app. It's very well designed I think and what it does is with a single glance at it you know if you're good to use it or not. And that's basically what we do. We eliminate the uncertainty about the storage of transport the conditions of temperature sensitive medications and first we fix the relationship individual medication.

I think that's pretty cool. So this is a portable device that stays at the right temperature so you don't have to worry about it.

You're absolutely right. So it's basically a smart sensor that is very small and elegant and you placed the mitigations and it's communicates with your iPhone, with your smartphone in the background. And every time there's a problem you get an alarm. And every time anything reassurance you just check the app.

I think that's so cool. So no need to worry about the temperature of that because you have a way to track it. Folks if you haven't checked it out, it's pretty cool. It's for sale here in the U.S., it's for sale in Europe right now. Amin and his team are offering this to consumers. They're also working on an offering this more broadly to populations through payers and providers and even employers so excited to dive into this a little bit further with you, Amin. Thanks for sharing that with the listeners.

Sure, thanks for giving us the stage.

Hey, so obviously the hot topic is chronic diseases and managing medication but what would you say for the leaders listening to this podcast. What needs to be on their agenda today?

And I think what I'm going to mention is already on their agenda it's everyone's agenda and it's been for a couple of years. The billion dollar or the hundred billion dollar question is how to make it work or how to make it happen. And that's basically the fact that every single aspect of our lives is now digital or in a way digital. So the way entertainment think of how we listen to music or how we watch shows, how we shop, we do our finances or banking, how we travel, book accommodation,how we meet other people, how we stay in touch with our loved ones. It is all digital. Today it's made possible by these tiny supercomputers that are sitting in our pockets and they're permanently connected to the internet and are packed with sensors. And the only or the last field but the last industry that did not catch up is health. So in a way that's alarming. But on the other hand there is a huge opportunity I think for us as individuals and as a society it is extremely urgent to bridge this gap and to bring the health care and the health industry as a whole in the digital age.

Yeah I think I think that's really great. You know and as we as we take a look at these digital advances I mean let's face it you know in healthcare I've had several guests here talk about the real innovation in healthcare is actually implementation because we've got so many advances we just got to figure out how to put them to use.

Yeah. Yeah and the answer it's really funny, funny industry because where I come from another core and the right from consumer electronics or from I.T. startups. Right. So for me discovering this like behind the curtains as a non as someone who sees behind the curtain that just consumes health services was a massive surprise. The number of parties involved in the tiniest of health related actions is huge and the amount of politics around it is massive. Just think about prescribing simple medication. So the person who prescribes the medication is different than the person who dispenses it is different than the person who uses it consumes it is different than the person who produces and is different from the person who pays for it. Or the party that pays for it. So if you try to put down on a piece of paper on a white board. The simplest action in this space you end up with a very very complex landscape. And for someone like me who comes from a completely different corner of the economy was really impressive.

Yeah. Now it's it's a good call out, Amin. You know one of the things that I love about having leaders like you that come from different backgrounds is that you really cannot force the discussion about how much we need to simplify what we do in healthcare and so it's wonderful whenever we have leaders come in with outside experiences because you force healthcare leaders that are traditional to the space to think outside the box and so as we consider this. What would you say today some stories that you have that have helped your organization improve outcomes by thinking differently?

What is very simple. We think differently because that's how we think. We didn't think OK what's being done and let's try something else. We started from scratch. So what we did. We did not really invent anything. You just took ready the readily available technology and we did a lot of work researching all aspects of it. Medical Expert, clinical aspect, business aspect, design aspect. We did a lot of design work and the result of this is a very clean, disaffiliated user experience that fits in the essay everyday routine of people who use it and it solves a massive problem for them. So the thing is if you're trying to reinvent a lot of stuff the barriers to other options are high. So I think the key is to go for shortcuts for clever ways of ensuring adoption and that's by not changing people's word just to become part of it. So what we do is something that requires very very little action from our users and the same time introduces major amounts of anxiety, uncertainty and financial waste. I think it's key to approach problems from this angle. I can give you an example that's outside MedAngel as well and that's the way people think or some economies societies think about taking electronic health records to the digital age that say that the biggest problem is they think how can we do something that we used to do on paper with pen and paper to software? And the thing is if you think that you already lost you need to think what can software do for me how can I think that rethink the entire process why do I have to stick to something that was invented in the 40s and bring it to yourself to a new way to think to rethink things from scratch requires quiet really deep research. It requires challenge the status quo and thinking a lot of why not right. So that's how we operate. That's that's our philosophy. That's what I really want to do it not necessarily as the driving business philosophy but at least as an exercise for sure.

No I think that's a great call, Amin. and so as you've built this team and you guys have put forth the product into the market it obviously hasn't come without mistakes or setbacks. Can you share one of those setbacks with our listeners and what you learned from it.

Let's see. I think I can talk for three days. Does that mean we wake up or do we make mistakes right. That's what we do. They just have to be smart mistakes and not stupid mistake. So let me think if I had to pick up one I would call it a mistake. I would call it a misjudgment or something that needed calibration. I think that we underestimated the effort and the cost and the time it takes to go to market with an innovative product. So being a product driven founder like product and the solution we make and how it works and how people interact with it is at the center of my attention. I am obsessed with what I do but what I've realized is that if you want to bring that to the masses it's not even 5 percent of the work they having a ready product it's not even 5 percent of the work. There's so much work that needs to be done to go to market to achieve product market fit to work on make sure that people know about it, buy it, use it, don't stop using it. So I think we underestimated a lot the effort it takes to educate the market, to go to market, to develop the business launch. In retrospect I think it would have allocated three times four times as much to these activities more than product development itself but I think it's very normal if you launch something so innovative it takes a little bit of time it takes lot of patience and a lot of calibration to do it. You just need to look at the first two years of something like the iPod. So I underestimated that our team underestimated that but luckily we did a soft launch and we could recalibrate on time and raising that investment to to fix this whole time. So at the end of the day I don't think it was a big failure or a mistake it was just a reality check to recalibrate. So if I had to or if I give it advice to anyone who is listening and you're launching an innovative product in a market that's not exist right so don't underestimate that. Be ready for a lot of recalibration. It's going to take time, it's gonna probably take more money than you think.

And if you had to put a number on it would you say two times, more three times more?

Than my estimate. Yeah 3x at least.

3x There you have it, listeners you know and we've heard this before from other entrepreneurs on the podcast Amin so definitely a good reminder folks you always have to make sure you think about this. It's going to take longer it's going to cost more especially in health care so 3x is the rule of thumb here and plan for it. And obviously resilience. Right. Amin and his team were resilient. They recalibrated and they figured it out. So congrats on getting over that hump. I mean and now that you're over it it's onto the next challenge is right because of always going to be challenges.

Absolutely. Thanks for the compliment, Saul. You're absolutely right. Resilience is extremely important in the wake up every day. You think: do I keep doing this or do I stop? And it's a hard journey but the reward is really very fulfilling when you wake up one day and you read your e-mails and you have a user who writes back to you. Thank you so much. Thanks to your solution we could save like 500 or a thousand dollars worth of medications in our fridge right on time before it broke or during our holidays. It's FREE MONEY for a family. Oh yeah you read an e-mail from a mother who says Finally I understand why my kid's blood glucose is out of range all the time. That's very very fulfilling. And you think OK I'm going to continue doing this today and tomorrow and next month and next year. So yeah we're not doing this just for the money right. So health is really a hard space hard market but it's so fulfilling.

Totally agree. I mean totally agree. And what you're doing is super impactful. What would you say. One of the proudest medical leadership moments you've had to date.

Definitely definitely the life of Novo Nordisk a word that we won in November 2017. That's a major achievement it's recognition from the world's largest insulin manufacturer and it's the competition was furious. It was like really high high level startup's who is a player is when you win against such competition. That's a real recognition. And to see that the community that recognizes that this is a real need. That's what we do is important. That's priceless. And that also opens doors for a startup that's happening its way right. And so that was an amazing moment. It was an amazing achievement. And the second one there is a very recent developments I'm really proud to announce on the spot guests that we are coming to retain in the USA with CBS. So our product solution will be available in pharmacies in California.


Thank you very much. Soon as a pilot before scaling up to the rest of the USA and it's really a major achievement because you have this idea in your head that your hassling away for three years and then you walk into the pharmacy and it's there. Right. So that's that's amazing.

Man it's awesome, man.

Our team is really proud of it.

That's so cool. Congratulations to you guys. And you know let's face it. I mean what we're dealing with here guys is is an opportunity for people to live more fulfilling lives without having to worry about their medications. If you know if you go to, they've got a blog and I mean some pretty cool stories here folks. Like for instance when my insulin froze under the burning Greek sun summer holidays with diabetes seasun and insulin frozen stuck on an island that doesn't have your insulin right. These are very real stories. And what Amin and his team are doing are are helping people live more fulfilling lives by keeping this just so easy. So really awesome stuff here, Amin. What would you say a focus that your company is working on today that you're excited about?

I think they've reached good validation in the consumer space. We decided to go the B2C route early on because we realized that working with other businesses is slow. Say cyclers or extremely slow in health it's just because that's how it is right. So right regulation and politics and business is just a very slow moving industry so what we decided to take advantage of the fact that our product is also consumer product and we went B2C and we were successful in let's say establishing ourselves in this space. The next also mainly positioning for diabetes. So people with diabetes. I think the next challenge for us is to scale this up to other conditions so there is a number of chronic conditions that require using biologic injections TNF inhibitors and other biologics and these are extremely extremely costly medications. Just to give you an example, 18 out of the top 50 best selling meds in the world are temperature sensitive. Most of them are biologics. Maybe your listeners will recognize the best-selling drug of all times Humira by AbbVie. It's a blockbuster it's a miracle drug. Most users who are on it love it or taste their lives but it also generates 18 billion dollars in sales a year and that's free money. And if you cannot be sure at the moment of injection if you're banned or a syringe will be effective or not that's pretty bad. And we hear this a lot from older users who use humira and other biologics. And so our next step is basically to bring many into to other chronic conditions like from a crisis MS inflammatory bowel diseases crawling number of growth disorders and most importantly to work with providers, payers, employers to bring this innovation to their customers or to their members for example what is really key or extremely important in having a solid B2C strategy or a solid consumer base is that you prove that people see the value of this and that they are willing to pay for it. They're willing to bear the cost of this. And so it's really an advantage for payers when you go to them and not ask for full reimbursement but for Copé and the outcome or the financial gain out of co-paying with the users is huge for all parties. So this is this is are our focus for the next 18 months. I would say.

Super exciting. Love the business strategy and your approach and it's working so keep up the awesome work.

Thank you.

So I mean let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in medicine, it's the 101 or the ABC's. I mean of Amin Zayani. And so we're going to write out a syllabus here. I've got four options for you lightning round style, so quick answers on these and then we'll follow up with your all time favorite book. You ready?

Ok I'm ready.

All right what's the best way to improve health care outcomes?

It's very simple. It's to give people the power and the tools to manage their conditions and by that how you empower them. You basically reduce the time required by ACTs to provide care that reduce the costs for the users and the payers and most importantly people are willing to take this responsibility they have this responsibility. So if you want to improve healthcare outcomes give power and tools to the people and they will know how to use it, trust me.

Love it. What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

To keep traditional mindsets from 10-20-30 years ago and expect that things are going to change or be OK. So you've got to think outside the box.

How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

It's very simple to be changed. If you are the constant change and you are a changed you can live with change.

So what's one area of focus that should drive everything in your company?

Reaching product market fit and because it summarizes all aspects of the business. It means that you reach the sweet spot of right business model, the right product, the right channels, the right user experience and the right culture and the team internally so product market fit. That should be the true metric.

Beautiful. What book would you recommend to the listeners, Amin?

Hands down The hard thing about hard things by Ben Horowitz.

Awesome, that has been recommended before. What do you like about it?

It's real. You know it's not like I read so many business books and management books and all sorts of things that give you advice and tell you how to work according to plan. But anyone who's been in the trenches including you, Saul that probably 90 percent of your listeners know that once you're in like you go out there to real worked with a plan. Two weeks later that becomes irrelevant. That tells you how to do it. There is no that says you have to deal with it. And this one is it does right. It's really it's true. There is no hot air in it. There is no trying to make the work look better. There is no theory, it's all practice. The guy that's been there has been burned. He's honest he's authentic. I love it. There is a chapter in it that's called the struggle. They read it probably more than 60 times. It's amazing a recommend it to everyone who listens.

What a great recommendation and thank you for that summary before we conclude, Amin, this has been so much fun. Really really appreciate your insights and sharing your stories and just the tidbits that you know that went into your struggles and also of your team's successes. It's been a really fun episode. Can you just share a closing thought with the listeners and then the best place that they could get in touch with you or follow you.

Sure. So the best place is very easy it's we have a number of channels they can contact me and my team directly I read everything they see everything. Just if you want to contact me any channel will do. A closing thought is we're very committed. We have a very clear vision and we are very committed and we want to bring peace of mind and we want to take uncertainty away. We want to reduce the cost of care and we want a better life for people who live with chronic conditions and if you are a provider or an insurer or an employer or any kind of whatever your professional position is that if you think that anything I said resonates with you or if you think that it is we have common interests. Please reach out to me and to my team and I'm very much looking forward to interacting with you and to drive change in healthcare.

Amin, thanks so much. Listeners, take Amin up for this invitation if something that he said or that him and his team are doing resonate with your goals and what you guys are working to improve health outcomes for your patients and your populations. Please reach out to him. Just go to and you're going to find all the show notes and links of the transcript and all the contact channels for Amin on that So I mean just want to say a big thanks my friend. Super thankful that you made time for us today and excited for the journey that you and your team have embarked on. Stay in touch.

It's my pleasure, Saul. Thank you so much for the invitation. And then we'll definitely stay in touch.

Thanks for tuning into the outcomes rocket podcast if you want the show notes, inspiration, transcripts and everything that we talked about on this episode. Just go to And again don't forget to check out the amazing Healthcare Thinkathon where we could get together took form the blueprint for the future of healthcare. You can find more information on that and how to get involved in our theme which is implementation is innovation. Just go to that's be one of the 200 that will participate. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix


Recommended Book:

The Hard Thing About Hard Things: Building a Business When There Are No Easy Answers

Best Way to Contact Amin:


Mentioned Link:

Episode Sponsor:

No comments exist
Outcomes Rocket - Gaspard de Dreuzy

How to Combine Artificial Intelligence and High Touch Improved Outcomes with Gaspard de Dreuzy, Co-founder and President, Pager

Thanks for tuning in to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to personally invite you to our first inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's a conference that the Outcomes Rocket and the IU Center for Health Innovation and Implementation Sciences has teamed up on. We're going to put together silo crushing practices just like we do here on the podcast except it's going to be live with inspiring keynotes and panelists. To set the tone, we're conducting a meeting where you can be part of drafting the blueprint for the future of healthcare. That's right. You could be a founding member of this group of talented industry and practitioner leaders. Join me and 200 other inspiring health leaders for the first Inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's an event that you're not going to want to miss. And since there's only 200 tickets available you're going to want to act soon. So how do you learn more? Just go to For more details on how to attend that's and you'll be able to get all the info that you need on this amazing health care thinkathon. That's

Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I really thank you for tuning in. And I welcome you to go to outcomes raket health. Slash reviews where you could leave a rating and review for today's guest because he is an outstanding contributor to Healthcare, an entrepreneur and a man that wears many hats. His name is Gaspard de Dreuzy. He is an outstanding leader at Pager. He's a co-founder and ex-CEO currently still president on the board of directors. He's done many other things in other companies including being the co-founder and director of trade it. It's trading tickets incorporated as well as co-founder and CEO of capital and the list goes on and on. This gentleman has done a lot for healthcare and what I want to do is welcome him to the podcast to really cover some of the topics and exciting things that are going on at his latest company which is called Pager. So without further ado, Gaspard welcome, my friend.

Thank you and thank you for having me.

It's a pleasure it's a pleasure. So what is it that got you into health care, Gaspard?

Well I mean as you kind of said in your in your intro, you know I've been an entrepreneur my whole life. And I really love going into new industries and new adventures and really with an angle of you know how can I help innovate and disrupt the industry either through technology or through user experience and design. So I think that's the real story about Pagers that I'm french and I grew up in France and colleagues. As I was growing up we had these service called SOX medecine means doctor in French. And SOX was media and very important service in the healthcare landscape in find that having doctors to your door. So basically a household system that managers really all the urgent services in France and you know today they do maybe six or seven million visits a year just in France which is pretty outstanding. And I realized that we didn't have that kind of services here in the US. Atleast not on the major scale. And we decided along with my two cofounders. One of them was one of the founding members at Uber, so he apply that knowledge to healthcare and really tried to in a way come up with you know what it is today for healthcare on demand. So that's where we're definitely a big inspiration for the early days of pager and then obviously it's often the case when you sell the company within for developing you know a more refined vision then they will go over time.

Now that's super interesting and you definitely have a strong leadership team there you've got Walter Jean, Oscar Salazar and Philip Eytan. I mean you guys are moving and shaken baby.

Thank you. Really happy about the team and yeah, Walter who joined the company about a year ago it is more than a year ago it really came as a great addition to the team because at the time we were really looking for someone with more healthcare and more healthcare experience.


Oscar and Phillip and myself we've all been technologists and entrepreneurs that none of it came from the healthcare industry. My experience was more and initially in the video gaming industry and then in industry. Oscar, you know technology is coming from you know Uber that is just before before Pagers and Phillip was more on the financial side you know with experience that companies that are Gozal Morgan Stanley. So we all have own background but it was great to see words are coming and joining us to really bring some more of this is a health care DNA to the team.

Now that's really awesome man and you know the thing about health care is that every industry touches healthcare so whether it be Uber, hey we got over health now right or whether it be the finances behind it, it all touches it. And I think the great pool of experience that you guys have will contribute in a big way to the success that you guys have. Yeah.

I mean I definitely agree with you and I would say that you know the alternate view is that industries like transportation or finance or and obviously healthcare are very large industries and very heavily regulated industry. And that's the way to innovate in those industries is that all point of view and that's our angle is to try to improve the quality of the user experience. I think Uber is a great example on how make it more simple and make it more easy and fast to get transportation on demand and everything that I've tried to do the same thing in finance and now in healthcare. So those industries have that in common that they are big they are difficult to move but to come in with a real design centric and user experience driven vision you have a chance to really take them to the next level and really disrupt them.

Now it's such a great point. Gaspard and it's just here's an example of a group of folks you and your team that have gotten together to become the digital Davids so to speak in an industry with huge Goliath's and so I'm excited to see what you guys do in that in the next coming years. What would you say is a hot topic that should be on every medical leaders agenda today?

I mean there are a lot of topics but obviously for us and this is the one topic we're always talking about and kind of trying to bring top of mind with all industry leaders whether they are providers of payers and obviously the consumers. Is that you know they sort of are the consumers what we see on the consumer stand point. Health care is very confusing and very fragmented. People I'm sure you and I are the same. You know we have a lot of different providers different kinds of needs depending on how we are and where we are and what kind of conditions we have. There are a lot of options in terms of care. Available are there you know from urgent care to ER, to primary care, specialty care, to virtual care and on and on. So I think that's the main topic. The one that we are very much passionate about is how do you take that very kind of extended and therefore choosing and usually fragmented healthcare ecosystem and make it more easy for consumers to access it and to navigate it. And that's really what we're very much as I said passionate about and trying to solve this page.

It's a great opportunity and listeners were faced with archaic processes and archaic ways of doing things. If we do not change, then others will and Gaspard and his team over a pager, they're finding ways to become more efficient and lean. So it's really the onus is on us as leaders of the healthcare system to take action and make corrections and think outside the box. I love that you brought your experiences and ideas from France over here and just apply them in such a way that would help us get better health care so I love that you have that inspiration from Europe.

Thank you. And I think you know the French shopgirls ecosystem I know if it's better or worse than American system I think. I think it's not black and white or something things better or something has a way worse. But again as a consumer in France you know growing up there it was very more easy and quick to access the healthcare system and it was a good starting points for us as a company and also to help us to build a vision. But what is really amazing in the U.S. is that we come up with that vision in the US market and then from there we just evolved a lot and I think that actually I was very pleasantly surprised that the healthcare industry and the healthcare ecosystem in the U.S. seems to be very open and very in a way very eager to innovate. And you can see that with the evolution of Pager. As a company we really started a little bit like I told you with the French vision around kind of care delivered on demand right. How do you get providers in people's home to really make it more kind of consumer centric to access urgent care on an on demand basis. And from there we realized that actually the biggest of opportunity was really to provide better access and better navigation to really help people, to help guide people through the complex healthcare ecosystem because if you look at the healthcare ecosystem in the US is very rich. You have so many options available for consumers and we think it's a it's a great strength. And the problem was all those options available is that it's just very difficult for consumers to know where and when to use what options. And so we realize that our DNA of the day really care on demand and being very consumer centric, what the right DNA but that's the way we're doing that through housecalls and the that that was not enough. So we decided to really gonna become you know more of a kind of a single entry point letter form door into your healthcare or the U.S. you know use Pager to actually ask questions and get some help and get guidance to the WidePoint of care. So we see the DNA but I think that being in America allowed us to be extremely flexible in terms of evolving our vision and evolving how we would execute on our vision and I think that's the big strength here compared to France where things are way more you know a little bit more heavy and less flexible in the way people just innovate and start companies.

I think that's so great. Gas Bardin and listeners I want you to just take a nugget of wisdom here for a second and just kind of soak it in because we oftentimes are held back by our own false beliefs and I believe that one of the false beliefs that exists in health care in the United States is that it's inflexible and when in reality it's not. You just got to find the right people to help with whatever you're trying to do and Gaspard and his team have done this, Gaspard. You bring up a really great point right. I mean you were surprised with how flexible things were.

Yeah and you're actually right I think you know a lot of people in the industry are thinking about the challenge of accessing care and I think we think that that's not necessary the challenge led to your point people have a lot of options available. There's a lot of activity in the system and urgent care to your primary care doctor to ERs. A lot of things are available. What is more kind of challenging is the fact that these industries extremely fragmented so no one except sometimes your primary care doctor is going to be acting as your kind of your guide or your front door into that ecosystem. And the fact is that all those options are available. And the fact that you have all this flexibility means that it sometimes gets really confusing don't know if you're sick so you'll just go on google and do your kind of your self care so you call your primary care doctor who usually very busy and not easily available to you on the way. So you go online and try to find another doctor and get your appointment who you go to and your to go to an urgent care center to try to talk to the doctor to pull or chat. I mean just so many things the problem is...

So many things.

People are not just kind of qualified to make those decisions. And I think that you have companies, life into who were trying to fill that gap right. Trying to just guide consumers through that complex confusing because flexible paper system.

Well said my friend well sad and health care is not something that unless you have chronic disease right you're consistently in and out of the hospital. And that's one thing but the majority of people don't interface with health care until they need it. And so it's kind of like I go to Denver a lot. So whenever I go there I don't know it very well. But I always go to my concierge and he lets me know where I can go for a run. He lets me know where I can go get some food. And he always points me in the right direction and the service of a concierge and healthcare doesn't really exist. I like that you that you brought up the fact that your primary care would be the closest thing to that and it's really cool that you guys thought about this and made the shift from a point of care solution to something broader.

And I like actually the word concierge and you know content in health care is a little bit risky to take concierge because you know health care is horrible. But to your point you know we're trying to offer a wholesales like experience to the patients and to the consumers and work for them to be here when consumers need us. But that's what we're trying to do and what we will be trying to do for the next phase is to also be there when people don't know they need us. How can we at some point offer a more proactive and a more personalized experience to the consumers because at the end of the day you probably always need to interface with healthcare except that people will initially do it because they don't literally know that anything to interferes with healthcare and also they don't literally live who interface with healthcare right.


I think that the next kind of the next challenge down the line with Pager now that we're here when people need us is to be here when people don't know or don't think they need us and try to be their companion or the host shares in a more consistent way. That's going to be a challenge for us and we already have so much. We're also the company that is dedicated to address that. That's pretty exciting so.

That's super exciting. And so with the changes that we have coming in increased sharing right we've got the laws coming into effect in 2019 requiring these big EHR, EMR systems to have and sort of like an export using fire or whatever else they could use. A patient could upload their information to you and maybe you guys could give them some insights that they didn't expect.

Yeah I think that's a long term vision not a hundred percent agree with you. I think that before it becomes a reality the question is where can we find the data off sooner or earlier. And I think that one of the answers is work with the providers and worst of payers life. That's one of the reasons where we started as a kind of a direct to consumer company here in New York and then over time we've evolved as our model was evolving. We also evolved in terms of focusing more on payers and providers today that's really our focus. We be working with partner mostly with payers and also with providers. And one of the reasons why we do that is because by doing so we can integrate with our system and thus integrating with their systems. We had access to data and power. I was talking about this more a proactive and personalized care engine because of you know the data can do whatever technology you all and God knows that I figure we're dedicating so much resources when it comes to artificial intelligence and kill management for example. But without the data nothing can happen. So what we have we decided to do was to work with. As I said payers and providers and tried to have them could open up. So that we can have access to some of the data and use that that are to train our AI engine to care for patients in a more proactive and more personalized way moving forward.

I think that's cool, Gaspard and you know I'll you just right now. I believe that that healthcare providers are really wanting to know how to use the technologies that exist out there and with partners like yourself at Pager. I think it's going to be a solution that a lot of people are clamoring for and the opportunity for pilots that could grow into a bigger things could be very exciting. And so I think it's it's a really great focus that you guys have.

Well thank you and I think that we've started the process you know we have many partnerships in the works. The most interesting for now for us is big strategy property that we have with Horizon BlueCross BlueShield of New Jersey which is a very important partner to us and we're learning so much with them and hopefully vice versa. And I think that a lot of negative in a lot of providers and payers needs to understand better what are the existing solutions are there to help deliver a better user experience to their patients that are members. And I think that for your audience and you know in a good way to kind of understand what the difference between pager and other solution is the that are really our focus is to deliver the kind of to your point cochairs life experience and the way to do it is by building technology but combining technology with actual humans we believe that automating the entire care navigation and ordination process with technology is not the right way to do things today because technology has a tendency to be very intimidating to consumers. In healthcare you know this is the house where there are usually very skeptical about and sometimes care about technology. So what we decided to do it was really to put nurses on the interface between us and them and really build technology to empower to enhance the powers of those nurses so they can better serve the consumers. So I think that that's really talking about total solutions on the market. The specificity of pager is that if that we're a services company in the way that we have a command center with a lot of nurses working and we really caring for the patients and for the consumers and that older technology that we've built is to actually empower the nurses to treat or should I say to try to assist those patients in a better and faster way. So I think that would be a good kind of edge for you or just understand about pager.

That's definitely a great distinction because part and had I think anybody listening to this can relate that if you call in and whatever it be right you call that 1 800 number and you get a machine that asks you for different prompts. There's nothing more frustrating than that especially if you're going to be wanting to deal with your health. It's nice to have that human touch and it sounds like you guys are keeping that care and health care and not just mechanizing the whole thing.

Yeah. And I think hundred percent absolutely agree with you and I think that you know machines are. And we love machines that major because we just want things that are good for interacting too much to the consumers. And also we believe by the way that most care decisions whether you should go to an Yarm should an urgent care or to go to yes or care like a FaceTime consultation with your daughter. All those decisions to be human. We don't think that machines have proved yet that they are better than humans to make some of the public services. So I think that the level of comfort for consumers to interact with a licensed nurse and knowing that the technology actually makes the nurse better. That's what we think is the right model for the foreseeable future 10 20 years from now. We shall see. Right. But what we believe is that today it's really the combination of human and machine with humans needs to be first in line the mission is to be working in the background to enhance the human powers.

I love it. I think that's such a great point. Gaspard talked to us about a story a time when you had a setback or a failure and what you learned from that?

I think you know as an entrepreneur and millions I'll tell you how I think I hope I kind of learned and use that figure as an entrepreneur in the past. You know I've done by whose companies and it happened to me especially for the first version of our products usually over investing time and money and energy. Building the first iteration of the product. Now so we were launching it and really putting in the hands of users. And I think that that that is extremely dangerous because it's expensive and in a way you don't really know if people are going to welcome your product. And so it's just a very counter-productive way of doing things and I've done that in the past. Actually more than once and when we started the pager I'm actually pretty happy because we decided to be way more agile like we weren't going to market very quickly was kind of this. There was mentioning before the kind of urgent care on demand products which was a very narrow focus on one use care, right. We went direct to consumer because we didn't want to wait for people to just start testing our products. So we ignored payers, we ignored providers. We did everything ourselves. And we were lucky because we were able to access financing to fund that. Not cheap is actually pretty expensive.


We went there quickly with a product that was not perfect and they said direct to consumer and he told us to learn extremely fast. And that's why after we were able to evolve and our product or the last we didn't kind of stay rigid on our initial decision to share products. We were extremely effective all the way the company's vision and the company's product and the company's business model evolved. And I think that's one of the reasons why the company is successful today and obviously it's not necessarily easy to do because being so agile actually this time and he cost money and you have investors or partners who are patient enough to support that profit when you are when you can make yourself when you can create an ecosystem of partners and investors who support a process that is usually a winning formula that takes time and healthcare everything that time it is way more powerful to actually launching a product in pulling that process. And I think that as I said you know I did some mistakes in the past because if you don't follow that with major. We did it and I think that paid back to them.

That's so great. Gaspard and listeners take this jam and practice it don't create your products or services in a vacuum. You've got to get out there even though it might be a little bit more expensive like Gaspard said to iterate and to shift while you're going out there getting feedback. It's even more expensive if your company fails. So definitely a great pearl of wisdom that you share with us. Gaspard thank you for that. So here we go. We're heading here toward the end in this little section. It's a lightning round Gaspard so I got four questions for you. It's the 101 or the ABC is of Gaspard in healthcare. And so we're going to put a we're going to put a syllabus here for the listeners and we're going to follow that with a book and a podcast that you recommend to the listeners you ready.


All right. What's the best way to improve health outcomes?

The best way to improve how outcomes I would say is to always partner with the provider that you need right. So it's really key to always find the right providers for what you need.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

I think I just mentioned one was isn't the focus or the biggest mistake is to spend too much time building a product and developing a vision without actually putting it in the hands of of your users and your partners.

It's powerful. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Same thing you know being always flexible and not be attached or emotionally attached to your initial or to your old ideas. Always be ready especially as an entrepreneur to people or change or enhance or change your mind. And change is usually a little bit difficult especially for large organizations but also very difficult for small organizations because that means that to change direction you need to retool your team. It is essential business model but change is usually good it's not bad. So what we really you know look at change, the good thing about thing.

There you go. What's one area of focus that should drive everything in a health organization?

It depends on the health organization like you know it's your provider the quality of health and safety of your providers is absolutely key. I would say for an organization like Pager which is early stage which is really about user experience it's just your manual focus on the quality of the consumer experience they work for us. That's absolutely the thing that is the most important.

Love it. What book would you recommend and what podcast would you recommend to the listeners?

That's a good question. The book that I would recommend is a French book called Gaspard de La Nuit which is you know the book of the same name but a book that you know kind of pushed me a lot of interesting lessons when I was younger and comes of having space or adventure and risk which I think is the foundation for being an entrepreneur. And in terms of podcast, you know like a lot is built by NPR podcast by and from them from entrepreneurs who was your ideas about how those very creative and successful entrepreneurs actually built it. So that's the one that's I enjoy a lot.

Beautiful. Listeners, don't worry about writing any of this down. Just go to, you're gonna find all or shown out there a transcript to everything that we've talked about, links to the books and the podcast as well as a link to Pager. Gaspard, this has been a blast. I really enjoyed our time together.

Thank you it's been fun. Thank you so much for inviting me.

Absolutely. Unless and before we conclude I'd love if you could just share a closing thought and then the best place where the listeners can get in touch to collaborate or follow you.

Very interested to Krassner with new organizations and new people and conforms to our vision and obviously show our product and again make it evolve and make it better all the time. Those are the best way to reach me just a

Outstanding. Well go ahead include that for you listeners in the show notes so be sure to check that out at This has been a pleasure. Really appreciate you taking the time to be with us.

Thank you so much. My pleasure.

Thanks for tuning into the outcomes rocket podcast if you want the show notes, inspiration, transcripts and everything that we talked about on this episode. Just go to And again don't forget to check out the amazing Healthcare Thinkathon where we could get together took form the blueprint for the future of healthcare. You can find more information on that and how to get involved in our theme which is implementation is innovation. Just go to that's be one of the 200 that will participate. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix


Recommended Book and Podcast:

Gaspard de La Nuit

NPR podcast

Best Way to Contact Gaspard: 

Mentioned Link:

Episode Sponsor:

Outcomes Rocket - Fard Johnmar

Why Adopting Digital Health Technology Will Be Pivotal to Healthcare Success in 2018 with Fard Johnmar, Founder at Enspektos LLC

Thanks for tuning in to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to personally invite you to our first inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's a conference that the Outcomes Rocket and the IU Center for Health Innovation and Implementation Sciences has teamed up on. We're going to put together silo crushing practices just like we do here on the podcast except it's going to be live with inspiring keynotes and panelists. To set the tone, we're conducting a meeting where you can be part of drafting the blueprint for the future of healthcare. That's right. You could be a founding member of this group of talented industry and practitioner leaders. Join me and 200 other inspiring health leaders for the first Inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's an event that you're not going to want to miss. And since there's only 200 tickets available you're going to want to act soon. So how do you learn more? Just go to For more details on how to attend that's and you'll be able to get all the info that you need on this amazing health care thinkathon. That's

Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with the day's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I welcome you to go to where you could rate and review today's podcast because we have an amazing guest. His name is Fard Johnmar. He's a digital health innovation supercharger and futurist from New York City area. He is definitely careful about how tech innovation and progress influence healthcare. He's a speaker on various topics on this and he's also been a founder of a company called Enspektos LLC where they are consulting companies specialize in strategy research and training. And the one I want to do is open up the microphone to our outstanding guests and have him fill in any of the gaps of that intro Fard, welcome to the podcast.

Thank you for having me. It's a great pleasure to be participating and I appreciate the invitation.

Absolutely. You're moving and shaking in digital health my friend. What is it that got you into the medical sector to begin with.

Sure so I've been in the health and medical field for nearly 20 years. It's kind of hard to believe that's the case but yes. Nearly 20 years and I have always had an interest in health and medicine. Ever since a young age my family actually expected me to enter the medical profession as a physician. But I ultimately decided that I was really much more interested in working on issues outside of the clinic and turned my attention to really trying to help folks understand how to first of all communicate effectively about medical technology and then ultimately that led to an interest in the combination of health and medicine and technologies such as virtual reality mobile etc. and that interest started in the Leets actually early 2000s or so. And it's certainly continued sense.

That's super interesting. Your folks wanted you to sort of go the practitioner route but you went a little different route and you've found great success here. Fard. What would you say a hot topic you take a look at all of health, right. I mean you're kind of have a broad view on this. What would you say a hot topic that should be on every medical leaders agenda today. What is that?

The way I like to kind of think about where health in medicine is globally is that obviously over the last few years there's been an intensive focus on the digitization of health both here in the United States and also around the world. And the reason for that is that there are so many issues related to a worsening health outcomes for people around the world and increasing aging population. Medical expenses and healthcare expenses that continue to skyrocket. And so what people have decided is that there's something about the use of digital technologies that can potentially help solve some of these issues. And so for obviously the folks listening into this podcast understand that digital technologies are certainly important. The key thing that should be on everyone's mind is not so much whether or not digital technologies will go away in health care or they'll die as some people have discussed but more about what are the most effective ways to implement these technologies to solve those pressing issues that I mentioned earlier. And so I think everyone whether they're an individual physician or working at the highest levels of provider organizations that certainly on their minds I know this from my conversations with them. But it should be something that everybody's focused on how do we implement in a way that's going to help us to solve these problems and a very efficient and cost effective way.

So when we're talking about these new and innovative technologies some are rock and roll and some are fallen by the wayside. Would you say the key to implementing these technologies in an impactful way and how are you guys doing some things like that to improve outcomes?

Sure so you know one of the things that I've really been focused on in the context of what I call this age of implementation is how organizations are actually working their way up. Something else that I call the Innovation Integration curve right. So we have a lot of innovations that are being developed by maturing organizations around the world and the challenge that health organizations face is how do they take these innovations and actually integrate it into their operations so that they can improve health outcomes save money etc.. And so the way to kind of think about this Innovation Integration curve is kind of in three stages that are very easy to communicate. The first stage is just becoming aware of these technologies and allowing the organization to become educated about the best ways forward the ways that they could potentially impact health. The second is once people have made a determination that these technologies could actually be helpful after stage one the kind of enter into stage two which is what I call engagement and capacity boosting. So basically that means launching pilot projects and really developing the internal capabilities to utilize these technologies to the best of their ability. And then after Stage 2 after the organization has a good sense of how to use these technologies in some limited ways they can then think about how do they actually scale these technologies and make them have the ability to use them proficiently across numerous therapeutic categories use cases et cetera. And so as you think through this Stage 1 Stage 2 Stage 3 it's both a communication strategy in terms of talking within the organization about where you are on the innovation integration process and then also engaging in specific types of activities related to each stage that will help you kind of systematically engage with these tools. And so the way that I talk about technology may be a bit different from maybe what some of you listening are used to. Usually there's an emphasis on maybe some specific technology trends such as artificial intelligence or the Internet or voice with applications such as Alexa. My focus in terms of the work that I do with organizations around the world is really helping them to systematically move through these stages so that they can understand where innovation can happen within the organization. The best way is to implement that and then finally be successful.

I think that these are some really great call outs fard and you know listeners when you move forward with something new something different. It's important that you consider these distinctions that Fard has highlighted here for us today and why not partner with somebody that's been there done that helped you get through it. And so that's what Fard focuses on. It's better to really work with somebody to help you get there rather than just go blindly and so maybe you can share something with us. Part of a mistake or setback bet you've experienced that you can now share learning from with the listeners.

I've had a lot of setbacks in my career and one of the things that I've noticed in the work that I've done especially being focused on the near future is that sometimes it takes especially in healthcare some time for people to catch up with where I'm going. And that's one of the reasons that I've developed some of these methodologies you know are ways of talking about innovation is through the experience that I have that I've had actually developing digital innovations and also trying to have organizations very complex organizations integrate these innovations into their operations. And so one example is a platform that I developed back in 2007 2008 time frame focusing on capturing large amounts of data about how patients were using digital technologies in this case who was mailing the web but also mobile and we were gathering tons and tons of data about their digital activities in order to kind of do some very loose correlations between exposure to digital content and behaviors health care behaviors. So for example if people were constantly seeing messages about a specific medication whether or not that actually changed their mind about adhering to that medication etc. and so taking that technology at that time to have some very large health care organizations. It was very difficult for them to understand how they would integrate this type of technology into their operations. So what I would say is that the experience of integrating innovation into complex organizations comes in part from that difficulty that I had with an application at that time that I think was a little bit too early for the market now. And today you know we have massive projects such as school baseline and we have research kit and other tools that are routinely capturing this kind of data and then making it operationalizing it for health organizations. But at the time this particular innovation it was just too early for a technology like this and so timing and understanding some of the barriers that that innovation faces has been very helpful in terms of taking the learnings from that experience and applying it to some of the newer projects that I've worked on.

That's a great call out fard and you know it could be a great idea. But if the timing is just not right if the capacity is right you said the mid stage is capacity building. It's not bare it's not going to happen.

Absolutely. And so I think that that's something that a lot of people who are kind of outside or innovating or trying to push innovations through you know it's not this word disruptive innovation. Right people talking about disruptive innovation all the time. And you know I certainly think that that's helpful in some respects to talk about disruption but at the end of the day the question is how are these technologies going to actually disrupt if they don't have the ability to really be interweaved within the clinical workflow or the life stage of the patient or how organizations operate from a policy perspective for example. And so innovations can only be disruptive if they have the ability to up in some of the fundamental drivers of a system. And I think that what we're seeing with how organizations like Amazon. Organizations like Google are looking at the health care system what they're saying is well we can't just try to inject our technologies into these existing systems. We have to maybe start to transform some of the fundamentals of the marketplace utilizing some of our expertise from other domains so that we can shift the landscape toward where we'd like to go as opposed to where it is now. So I think it's really thinking systematically about the process of innovation integration and the systems that actually surround it innovation so that one can truly be a transformative force in a way that's productive rather than counterproductive for these health organizations.

Yeah Fard, that's such a great call out and you know why focus on being disruptive. I feel like so many people would just want to be disruptive. Forget about being disruptive. Why don't you add some value and figure out why and do it in a new way.

Yeah I mean I think that the word disruptive is I think useful in some contexts but again kind of going back to the stage as it were this age of implementation. I've been talking about right where we are right now is where does the rubber meets the road with these technologies. Does the promise of these technologies actually match the reality of where we need to go from you know everything from improving adherence to decreasing the prevalence of diabetes. And so when you see the technologies that are successful you see that they're really focusing in on looking at a problem in a new way and solving that problem. And when people see success that's when they're willing to go and say OK yeah we do need to change the way that we're doing things but you can't say to people change for change change is say you have to have some level of evidence and some level of understanding about the best ways to engage so that people can both understand what you're trying to do trust that it's going to do what you say it's going to do and then finally get a get ROI from actually utilizing these innovations.

Very well said Fard. It's obvious that you spend a lot of time thinking through these things and helping your clients get through the process. So really appreciate you sharing these these words of wisdom.

Yeah thank you I appreciate it.

So I was curious right so you gave us that point of failure. I feel like we learn a lot from that but I think it's also good to celebrate our successes. Can you share with the listeners one of your most proud medical leadership experiences to date.

Yes so you know one of the things that I've been really working on over the last couple of years is one aspect of kind of the three things that I work on on a daily basis and you referenced it earlier in the conversation. But I'll just repeat them. One of them is helping people understand we're the global digital health landscape is going, in a very concrete and practical way. The second strategy and we were talking a lot about innovation strategy and the third is kind of research about what makes innovation go in the first area which is helping people understand we're the digital health landscape is going in a very practical way. One of the projects that I decided to work on in 2015 was basically launching and starting to collect a large amount of data about how digital health was actually evolving globally and I started to collect this data. I remember in the very beginning of January 2015 because I had an intuition that this information surrounding us on social media on the web etc. would be useful but there really wasn't anyone collecting this information in a systematic way. And so what I ultimately what this ultimately evolved into after a lot of conversations with healthcare executives was not just collecting the information but actually utilizing technology such as natural language processing and machine learning and some other tools to actually provide context so that people could investigate this database and answer very specific questions such as What are the major technologies pay organizations in the U.S. are focusing on over the last 14 months and what are the specific disease states that they're most concerned about in terms of using these digital innovations to solve problems. Right. That's not something that you can easily get from a google search. Right.


And so one of the things I'm most proud of is kind of taking this and evolving this dataset. Until now it's the the world's largest classified and organized data set. More than 4.5 million data points and growing that now I am starting use with those startup organizations. Com you know large complex organizations around the world to help them to answer questions very very quickly about where markets are going and in a way that provides them with insight and context about which these technologies are actually going so they can answer these questions very very quickly. So that's a really vital part of the innovation process right. Having the ability to quickly understand from a contextual perspective where is the market going. And then secondly where do we live or should be living in this innovation landscape. So what I've realized over the years is that people are starting to become frustrated with having to try to plow through all of the information that's coming at them and what they're really looking to do is just reduce and become more efficient in terms of trying to find the very specific insights that they're looking for. So you know I'm very very proud of the fact that I kind of took the lead back in January 2015 and started to collect this data and now I guess it's been now three years or so later. People are starting to recognize the value of having insights like this and that's something that I'm very proud of.

That's pretty cool and thanks for sharing that. And you know just going the extra mile I mean you took an idea and you said you don't want nobody's doing this and Google is not spinning it out but I get smart. And so now you can query the data using voice as well as search.

Well it's a search based application. So basically you could just type in keywords like paper digital health you'll get information about what like what diseases payors are focusing on right now or have been over the last 14 months which innovations tend to be really key areas of focus for payers. And you can look at the data the United States versus Canada for example if you're interested in that. So it's not a voice...

That's pretty cool.

Application but it is a search based application that helps people to answer those questions really really quickly and it kind of slice and dice the data in ways that weren't weren't possible before. And so the key thing kind of talking about pride of ownership or having doing this is that the thing you know I talked to I spoke before about sometimes being a little bit ahead of where your people are.


And so when I started this project people were kind of like just getting up to speed on digital health they really felt that they could have an handle on what was happening in the market because it was much smaller than right now. You know things are happening in China and Indonesia and Iceland and Finland you know things are way way around the world in big ways and it's just impossible for anyone to use e-mail newsletters or Google or those types of things to keep up with it. So I'm sensing that there is more and more value from having this kind of longitudinal database so people can see how things have evolved and pinpoint and quickly understand what issues are important to them as they try once again to implement these these innovations.

That's pretty cool and fard if the listeners want to find out more about this database and how do they find out where did they go.

So back in 2014 I launched a project called the Digital Health MAVEN project and some of you who are listening may have actually heard my intermittent podcast The Digital Health maven podcast but basically that project is designed to provide executives from around the world with the tools and resources that they can use both premium resources as well as a lot of free resources to help them to innovate more successfully using digital technologies and so he'd like to learn more about this digital health innovation staging framework that I discussed earlier or this idea around the age of implementation or learn about this intelligence platform. DG Health and former you can go to or search on Google for digital health maven project and you'll find all the information that you'd like about the research that I've done and also more about these innovation frameworks.

That's awesome. Thanks for sharing that listeners digital health maven. Dot com will also provide a link to that on the show notes for this episode just go to F AR D and you'll be able to find it there. Fard let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in medicine the 101 of my man Fard and so I like to write just the syllabus here with you for questions lightning round style followed by a book and a podcast that you recommend to the listeners. You ready.


What's the best way to improve health outcomes?

Best way to improve health outcomes is to take patient centricity from being a buzzword to actually living it. And so what that means is is really collecting information personalizing the interventions to account for people's cultural background language etc. and that engaging deeply sometimes in a one on one basis with patients to health and take the steps that they need every day to improve health outcomes reduce the risk of strokes and heart attacks etc.. It's very labor you know even though we have a lot of these digital technologies what they allow us to do is to scale our operations but it still requires a human touch and some level of personal life support for people to really make the changes that they need to make in order to improve outcomes across a whole range of areas.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

I think one of the biggest mistakes is being in your silo your own silo and thinking that you know everything. And so one of the things that I that I encourage people to do is to cultivate curiosity and what that means is to really understand. Try to break outside of your bubble your day to day and cultivate the curiosity that you can use to look at problems in a new way and be flexible about the best ways to achieve the goals you're looking to achieve.

How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

I think the key thing to remaining relevant as an organization is to really try to give people within the organization ongoing learning opportunities. Right. There's a lot of organizations that do invest in their employees do invest in their ongoing learning but not enough organizations really prioritize that. And so in order to stay relevant you really have to know what's going on and you have to not just at the highest levels of the organization but also managers who are responsible for implementing really do need to have the ability to be exposed to new ideas to continuously learn about what's happening across the landscape and then have the ability to apply what they learn in interesting ways either in mission critical projects or more experimental initiatives. This idea of creating innovations silos where you kind of got the innovation center out somewhere and then they're the ones doing innovation is great to kind of start to get things moving outside of kind of the bureaucracy of the organization but ultimately you're going to have to bring that activity into the organization and provide people up and down the organizational hierarchy with the ability to be exposed to these innovations to understand how they work and also implement them in new ways. That's really the only way that organizations can stay relevant despite the fact that things are changing and they are changing even faster than they have in the past. I mean just the pace of change is just accelerating. So I think that doing that is vitally important.

What a great call up Fard and listeners think about that process again that fard talked about at the beginning right. You really. Innovation has different stages. And you can't just silo it. You've got to empower the entire organization that is at the frontline. These managers these directors to make it happen. Love that. What's an area of focus that should drive everything in a health organization?

I think the thing I mean there's a lot of things that health organizations are concerned about re profitability maximizing clinical workflows those types of things. I think one of the things that tends to get lost is the fact that as large largest organizations are there are still populated by individuals by people and I think the focus of trying to make sure that your workforce or your colleagues are respected they have a work environment that they feel like they can contribute to. Those are some of the things that I think are sometimes under recognized in organizations. And so I think if we push toward that that level of focus on the people within the organization and supporting them I think that will make it organizations much more successful.

Love it. What's the book in a podcast that you recommended to listeners Fard?

Yes so a book that I recommend to listeners is a book read a few years ago called Steal Like An Artist. I really like this book because it focuses on cultivating the idea that great work always is built on the shoulders of others. And so what artists do is that they take and remix the work that that other people are doing in order to achieve their specific goal. So that's a book that I certainly recommend that people kind of take a listen to one of the podcasts that I really enjoy. That's actually not related to health care but I listen to quite often I listen to it for a long time as a podcast called On Being by Krista Tippett.

On Being?

On Being, right by Krista Tippett.

I like the title what's it about?

Yeah. Basically it's a podcast that just interviews people about their perceptions of the world how they grew up with pretty cool what makes them tick and a lot of the people that are interviewed on the podcast are very prominent people. So they're talking about things like how their faith for example shaped their thinking why they do what they do what makes them tick. So that's a podcast that I really like I'm sure some listeners know about that podcast and it's one that I recommend.

That's a great recommendation. Steal Like An Artist and On being you know quote that I've heard kind of in tune with that Fard as listeners. You're a human being. You're not a human doing and so focused more on being you'll be be more fulfilled.

Absolutely absolutely. I totally agree with that.

Fard appreciate that. Before we conclude you know I love if you could just share a closing thought and then the best place where the listeners could get in touch with you.

Yes so you know my biggest closing thoughts since I tend to focus a lot on digital innovation and you know I describe myself as a digital health futurist focused on the short term future. I think the closing thought is stay curious, stay focused, and really try to understand how these technologies can be implemented to solve real problems that people are facing everyday. I think if you do those things you can be more successful from an innovation process and then separate the hype from the reality and start to makes it make a difference when it comes to implementing these technologies in the day to day work.

Awesome that's really powerful and where would you say the listeners could get a hold of you or follow you.

Sure. So people can go to they can as I mentioned get access to a lot of different resources they'd like to get in touch. They can visit my personal website You can learn a lot more about me. You can contact me through the contact form there. I'm always happy to talk with people about their work that they're doing and I look forward to hearing from some of your listeners hopefully soon.

Hey thanks a lot. We really appreciate just spending time with us listeners. Don't worry about writing any of that down. All of the resources that fard shared our conversation, the book, everything can be found and truly appreciative of your insights and looking forward to staying in touch with you.

Thank you so much for this great opportunity. This is a fantastic conversation. And best of luck with continuing with the podcast it's definitely a great show.

Thanks for tuning into the outcomes rocket podcast if you want the show notes, inspiration, transcripts and everything that we talked about on this episode. Just go to And again don't forget to check out the amazing Healthcare Thinkathon where we could get together took form the blueprint for the future of healthcare. You can find more information on that and how to get involved in our theme which is implementation is innovation. Just go to that's be one of the 200 that will participate. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix


Recommended Book and Podcast:

Steal Like an Artist: 10 Things Nobody Told You About Being Creative

On Being podcast

Best Way to Contact Fard: 

Mentioned Link:

Episode Sponsor:


Outcomes Rocket - Joel Wishkovsky

How You Can Save Time and Money By Getting Your Contacts Perscription Online with Joel Wishkovsky, Founder at Simple Contacts

Thanks for tuning in to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to personally invite you to our first inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's a conference that the Outcomes Rocket and the IU Center for Health Innovation and Implementation Sciences has teamed up on. We're going to put together silo crushing practices just like we do here on the podcast except it's going to be live with inspiring keynotes and panelists. To set the tone, we're conducting a meeting where you can be part of drafting the blueprint for the future of healthcare. That's right. You could be a founding member of this group of talented industry and practitioner leaders. Join me and 200 other inspiring health leaders for the first Inaugural Healthcare Thinkathon. It's an event that you're not going to want to miss. And since there's only 200 tickets available you're going to want to act soon. So how do you learn more? Just go to For more details on how to attend that's and you'll be able to get all the info that you need on this amazing health care thinkathon. That's

Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I want to welcome you again to the podcast. Thank you for tuning in. And I also welcome you to go to where you could rate and review our podcast because today we have an amazing guest. His name is Joel Wishkovsky. He's the founder at Simple Contacts. Joel is an innovative entrepreneur, investor and startup advisor. He's a leading voice in digital health and telemedicine. And he's obsessed with the democratizing access to health care, making it more convenient and accessible with technology. At Simple Contacts, they're refill service for contact lenses that allows patients to avoid unnecessary visits to the optometrist office. Let's face it. It could take long and arduous time to be there. And so he's come up with a great solution for it. Previously he founded Sols Systems, a pioneer in 3-D printing of medical devices and he was instrumental in launching Smart Vision Labs, a smartphone based medical device. This gentleman is an amazing contributor to Health and I'm so excited to welcome Joel to the podcast. Joel, thank you for joining us.

Thank you. That was a wonderful introduction.

Hey my pleasure. So what did I miss? Is there anything else that you want to tell the listeners about you?

You know I think you know what gets glossed over a little bit in the introduction is that in addition to being a founder of companies if you want to make a difference in healthcare you've got to get involved across a variety of different parts of the ecosystem. So not just starting companies but also investing in them with their personal capital or in behalf of other syndicates advising new companies and mentoring people who are thinking about getting into healthcare because you can't do everything alone.

I totally agree. Joel and that's a great call out, right. Putting your money where your mouth is and you're definitely doing just that. What got you into health care to begin with?

Yeah I actually got sick and I got diagnosed with the disease called ileocolitis it's actually very similar to Crohns it you're familiar with that, it's auto-immune disease. And I was healthy you know late 20s I was active and had my first real health scare and was just completely blown away by how bad the system was. I started thinking really that what kind of technologies can we create with brain to make the system better. How can we make it faster. How can we get cheaper. How do I know how to go to the doctor's office. And that question how do I not have the doctor's officer sent me down the path of looking at remote technologies like sols where we did orthopedics remotely and simple contacts were doing vision exams online. Anything you can do to sort of take out all the infrastructure costs of delivering care in a doctors office getting to patients who can do it remotely and were healthy enough for it and doing it that way it's more cost effective use more convenient. And because we're going direct to the patient and we're a sort of a new company, new system, new technologies and an opportunity to redesign process and experience for patients rather than for a payer or a hospital system.

That's fascinating. Thank you for sharing that. By the way the frustration of your own care led to just this opportunity to say you know what I could do something about this. And listeners. It's the courage to create. It's that just the ability to say I don't have to deal with this that distinguishes the guests on this show. And it's also the listeners of this show. You too are doing a great part to improve health. Just like Joel has and so Joel in your current venture with simple contacts are you guys is this a consumer product. Who is your customer?

Yeah we're a consumer product. And investors are putting money into the company and it's how we talk about consumerization of healthcare. I would create a platform where patients come online take their exam get prescriptions from doctors fees or platform as well and then combine conferences and everything we do everything we think about. How do you make excretion patients exceptional, it choose us. Patients can choose to go optometrist office know LensCrafters known as ophthalmologist. She's also in her care. We make a difference is that patients know about us and choose us. And that means that we can put the patients first. They have to choose us as a consumer.

Yes. Very good. And is this something that they could use their insurance on or out of pocket.

Yes the exam cost $24 out of pocket for most patients. And the cost for an exam even if you have insurance. So the vision of space has a number of complexes. One of them is contact lenses and eyeglasses exam are not the same results are different. So you don't have insurance. okay for glasses exam it does not include a fitting for contacts which can be anywhere $150-200 dollars and that part of exams like $200.

So the patient would actually still have to pay 150 bucks.

If go to the doctor's office?

Yeah. Well that's big. And they could do it from the comfort of their own home.

Yeah they can do from anywhere, from office, from their living room, bathroom, they can do it in a hotel room, do it on trains, to the parking lot was like the break room of their work, factory floors.

That's amazing.

Actually. If you think about it it's fascinating it's like the realization of telemedicine, it's medicine and checkups feeding into patient's lives.

That is super cool. And Joel this is super fascinating and amazing that you're able to put together a platform like this. It takes too much time to spend at an optometrist office and it's pretty cool that you put this together what would you say is a big thing that you guys are doing to improve outcomes?

I think the one thing that's really important about platforms like ours is when you increase access and you make it more affordable. Patients can choose to do instead of trying to go around the system. So the largest issue for people who are contacts is over wear. People tend to where the last pair of contacts for way too long because they don't have time to see a doctor in their office. We have a lot of evidence that you use our system are taking exams more often are buying freshlense s more often and are using the recommended where schedule versus doing things that are incremental to their health in order to save money time.

That's pretty cool. It's the side benefits of it that I think would be of interest also to payers because if you have over wear you can imagine some of the complications like hey you know somebody ends up getting some sort of eye infection or eye disease and so I think that's really neat. So Joel, let's jump into how you guys are doing things differently. I mean is anybody else doing this out there?

Not really. And we're really the only one stop shop that has an exam built into the experience. If you think about where we are is we are very much like a traditional optometry clinic. We have doctors who work with us. We have exams like done for patients and we also happen to sell contacts so patients come to us and they will know optometric clinic. The difference is that we don't have any of the overhead costs of the retail clinics, we don't have any of the electricity bills and it's not taking hours for your exam and visit the doctor is taking you on average less than five minutes. So that's...


Mentally unique and it fits into this in concept patients have been how they get their care. They don't want to go one place to go and examine another place contacts or glasses and I think that's sort of a model that is actually very applicable to a lot of verticals like people want be able to go see the doctor and get their medications or get their sort of prescriptions without having you know many steps.

Yeah. That's awesome. Simplifying the process and listeners. The thing that I want you to take away from the amazing things that Joel and his team are doing at his company is that when you come up with an idea to improve health it doesn't necessarily have to be a product it could be a process improvement. And he's doing just that through his company now. Joel, can you walk us through a time when you made a mistake or you failed and what you learned from that.

Yes. So interesting things that sort of happened is there's been a group of small group and vocal group of retail clinics who are running optometry clinics and glasses and stores those stores. Sort of like, hey that technology is very disruptive to us we don't want to exist. And in 2016 actually a couple of states pass laws that banned us.


And in Georgia for instance I was basically saying you get obese online you can get birth control, abortion using drugs online but not contacts and not glasses. I can prescribe online and have very specific rules against it. I didn't really see that coming. We didn't know there was a blowback and we certainly you know we are now Paul, clinical guy not regulatory guy. And we just saw them. Oh my goodness like these guys are going to try to legislate us out of business. There are clinics and it's really definitely that mistake we should have realized earlier that what's happening is that they also engage. I think what we did learn was like hey, we can win these battles. We can go do education campaigns, talk to legislators, talks to the regulators. We can make sure that when they're debating this the State House is not just a retailer's perspective not business person's perspective. It's a patient's perspective and they consume technology and meet us and so very engaged. It's 2016. And actually in late last year we had state level battles with seven states seven...


Hated the idea of banning our technology and we won every single state.


Seriously. So some.


We found that eyeglass, and we've learned how to engage the regulators, representatives each state educate them and show them where technology is starting rumors and mistakes and beliefs.

And Joe what do you think has led to your victory is that different litigations.

At the end of the day what we're doing is the future. Depending on the representative right, different representatives have different platforms.


Some are. You know people care about things like free market better access for patients. So are you with that is hey this technology is just one competitor in many patients to choose. We're not forcing patients into online, patients choose us.


And they want more comprehensive exams they go to see a doctor saying we're not doing that. And then the second arguments is like other people who care more about like access in rural communities. The cost of care. So your own music listen tell them this. They are already on this and in many states are passing laws comprehensive reform to enable telemedicine to use the fares that the carry medicare medicaid. Think about how to incorporate telemedicine. So we are sort of say hey this is not a consequence and glasses issue. This is a telemedicine issue and the technology we use contacts has happened. We just happened to sell contacts, like we could just as easily have a simple birth control or simple hair loss and been selling those products. All right positions for those products because really the technology is the same. What we do is not really today's contacts, we're specific to be we're doing online, get prescription and get a refill without all the steps that normally involve process. And so that our evolution goes a long way with this patients representatives that care about things like rural access and low cost access here.

I love it Joel. This is so awesome and you guys are adding so much value to people out there by removing all these steps in a convoluted, complicated and time intensive process. And listeners the takeaway that you should take from what Joel just shared I mean he did not get into the business of policy but because he had his strong vision for the business and helping patients. He had to and he didn't let that get into his face and he didn't feel like he failed. He actually prevailed and it goes. Joe, you're a good example of that quote that says failure does not define you, it refines you and Joel.

Absolutely. Before we recorded this you mentioned that when you're entrepreneur at heart and this story of entrepreneurship is not what you hear in the Mark Zuckerberg of the world. You know like that's Bill Gates, it's like very very rare normal store of entrepreneurship is about struggle and coming up with creative interesting solutions in spite of all the offset you. It was easy to to sell contacts online to remote telemedicine, someone have already done. I would have even have an option. There would be no opportunity. And so you know you get if you want to be an entrepreneur. You're gonna be a founder of a company especially in healthcare where there's so many different stakeholders. When big, powerful stakeholders you have to adapt and use points where you have friction as a sort of catalyst create new and interesting solutions.

Yeah what a great share and thank you so much for sharing that with us. And you know behind me in the back of my mind I kept thinking like Uber and the things that they're doing and the fights that they had to have. And when you push the system to that edge of discomfort that's when you know you're doing something impactful and you're doing that, Joel.

Yeah a lot of people were interested in our company advisers to work here. Part of our customer service teak and fast company a lot of them look at this from over half of the legislative side and see the animosity was really small retailers say oh my god if someone is upset about what you're doing, you're clearly on to something. Would be upset.


They wouldn't be spending so many million dollars a year stop you if they didn't think it was a mortal threat.

That is so great. I appreciate you sharing that listeners I hope you get a little bit of inspiration here from Joel and what him and his team and this group is doing. Tell us a little bit more about the other side of the coin. Joel an experience that you're super proud of in your medical leadership career.

Honestly I'm proud every single day. I'm proud of that part who feel incredible. I'm proud of that team of forty something employees now and it works best consumer companies in the world. Making sure technology companies and we have this channel where men are slack when everytime writes a review every time they write an them. Yes. You know survey result. Any feedback. Talk to a customer service rep or you know the email goes in his channel and you know you get like dozens, hundreds of these things a day. And they are all so positive. And yes we're 88. Health care is just like stupid right now dollars and is down five star reviews on android and reviews were crazy. I mean I would support a battery like a first when I wake up with the letter and look at that feedback channel I'm like wow like Imagine for a second that you are an entrepreneur and you get that idea that affects you. You know I'm kind of. And you're like wow this response really is things I could fix that. But you like it when you make a little MVP product and it kind of works. Kind of like it. And then you know fast forward you know a year or raise some money like that Isoke really starting to see it all scales of business and you get dozens hundreds of vice or abuse a day that is so validating it's like.

Super validating.

Like how proud I had this idea of I into a company a a service. And people love it. Like that's just amazing. Original one from 730 AM.


Yes 730 AM's just two at that time actually the first one. Five stars IOS review. I'm never going anywhere else if you don't believe in a five star. I'm sorry you feel that way. It's called simple contacts for a reason. It's cheap to get lenses it's dazzling and helpful to make sure it stay atop your prescription. They go above and beyond the US as a customer and I'm so glad. Try it out. I would never go anywhere else. My contacts for 18 years now and I wish this company has been around for that long because it makes getting new contacts so easy and accurate your prescription. Thank you so much simple contacts.

Wow. Why does a raving fan right their.


nd awesome Joel.

The next one is actually read only piece of it you know a five star review in IOS like a few minutes after that one is titled wearing contacts from a subway.

From the subway. I love it.

I was on my last pair for the month. I'm ashamed to admit it. As silly as it sounds or Conatser an app really has been a game changer for me how easy and fantastic.

That is so cool man.

Ordered a new set of contacts from the subway question mark. Why yes I think I will add a hash tag. I'm even writing this review from the subway.

That is awesome.

And amazing. It's someone's life on the way to the office. They provide other prescription. I don't have to call the doctor and make appointment. I'm so proud of that.

That's so awesome. I'm glad you opened up your phone and shared some of the reviews because it is validating when you hear people like even when when I hear folks post reviews on my podcast. Hey keep it up like amazing interviews great. I mean this is just an example the market speaking to which you're creating an acceptance and encouragement to keep going. That's awesome, Joel. I love that you shared that with us. So let's dive into this. Things are going well there. What's an exciting project that you're working at Simple Contact right now.

Yeah I think one of the things that we've learned is that patients want things that are super easy and were sort of constantly working on making that task easier and more convenient. One of the things that we learned a while ago is that the task we have was pretty easy to do. Still these people say oh is this thing legitimate. Yeah you ask a question as to whether the larger search results how far to organic search results is simple contact's legit. We've been working in front of the last two months to recreate example in a way that feels more like a doctor visit. So said having books right now you're going to see a treasured instruments and it goes a lot of good process. It is self directed. The new version actually looks like a FaceTime interface now and so close out there's a doctor's I can get you a doctor or I'll give you all explanation. And he also will walk you through the process take you step by step. And it's a real doctor doing it so he feels a little more like the official doctor. That same amount of time is not more time to do it this way but it just feels more interactive and more personalized that's what we've been working on.

That's pretty cool. And so this is just a testament Joel to you and your team's ability to take what the market says. Because listen there is the market speaks and if you listen you're going to get the feedback that you need to make your products and services that much better. And useful and Joel and his team saw that one of the organic searches in Google was is this real. So what led you to go with that feel of the doctor. You could have done a lot of things right. You know you could have done an education campaign but like what got you guys focused on doing it this way.

So our team is everyone in our company comes from a massively successful consumer direct consumer consumer technology company things like SoundCloud Sikhi and you know Casper like those kinds. We have a lot of experience building things for consumers. And with that experience a heavy reliance on data. Yeah well Dick's looking at our flow understanding we're dropping off and people start to drop off Zamel during the first test. They don't really understand if it's real.


2000 reviews, you know people are organics off the charts with a lot of referrals. You just hear about some podcast like this or maybe their friend they don't really trust Helden about it like they get it started dropping off. So yeah a lot of what we're doing is focused around that zone where you are extrinsic test first time. It's always for that.

That's pretty cool and all and congrats. I'm sure it won't affect the flow. I'm sure it sounds like it's still the same amount of time and you guys are still continuing to do it. Hey from the subway and listeners if you're listening and you wear contacts by all means. Joel will share how you could get this done. In fact why don't we just do it now. JOEL How did they get in touch. Do they download the app? Can you give us the onboarding here?

Yeah I mean look there's a lot of experience. I can also download the app for iOS and also for Android. Just search for simple contacts. So we actually have a code for all your listeners. It's code: outcomesrocket all lowercase, all one word. The $3 off code so they can use that don't be out I guess Android or find us on the web.

Amazing Joel. Thank you so much. Listeners take advantage of that. Go to when you check out use outcomesrocket you get 30 dollars off. That's amazing. Joel thank you for that.

No problem.

So Joel this has been fun. Let's get into the section of the podcast where we build a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful. The 101 course with Joel Wishkovsky and so we're going to write out a syllabus. I got four questions for you. Lightning round style followed by a book and a podcast that you recommend to the listeners. You ready.

Yeah I guess didn't we have to name it first.

Which one.

Do we have to name of course. I was told I was told I need to come up with a name the course.

Let's hear the course.

You had written the 101 course ABCs of and I had empathy. It is empathy.

I love it. The ABC of empathy listeners and Joel you were the first to come up with the official name for the course. I love it.


So the ABCs of empathy. Let's hear it Joel. What's the best way to improve health outcomes?

I think a lot of times we talk to patients and the the key is to listen to what they want into what we do. Look at how they use our app. They know if they want to gain their trust. Once you gain their trust you know they'll work with you to take your recommendations and be healthier.

I love it. What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Treating patients and caring for them by giving them. Here's your issue. Go take this drug. I'm an investor advisor or lover of a company called Parsee health which is a direct consumer holistic medicine practice and it's a take that to heart. They said okay if you have a headache I'm not going to give you Advil. I'm going to figure out what's happening here why are you sleeping. Well you have stressed to marital issues like what is going on that could be religious. We can try to help solve before we start giving you some occasional. Caring patient, not just treating them.

Love it. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

A lot of values it just happens and I will never compromise on and use as type principle you make a decision so no matter what the role looks like you have values it for us transparency is openness and caring and sort of focus on patient experience. And I think that's the most important thing.

That's awesome. What is one area of focus should drive everything in a health organization?

This is the one thing that no one ever does understand why it's putting patients first. There are so many stakeholders in our health ecosystem a payers the suppliers. The hospital systems or the doctors that it seems like for so many organizations especially the recumbency, payers to treat first providers to treat it. Second doctors third in patients last and that really needs to be footpads had patients first.

Patients first. I love it. What book and what podcasts would you recommend?

These are not about health but there's a book called The third Chimpanzee by Jared Diamond an evolutionary biologist talks about human beings and our relations with other animals how we evolved and specifically looking at similarities and other animals and I think for any person who thinks probably about the world as a really good option to how closely we are with animals and the things we learn about ourselves from their anatomy and their structures.

I love it. And what podcast would you recommend, Joel?

My favorite is Tim Ferriss.

That's a good one.

Yeah they just Tim doesn't always talk about healthcare very often the third of his podcasts are about throwing out personal conditioning and treating your own biology. But overall his approach to life and thinking about individuals in your own development is great.

Outstanding recommendations listeners don't worry about writing any of this down. Just go to and you'll be able to find it. Joel's profile, our question and answer session, as well as links to the resources he provided and a copy of that link that you could click on and type in outcomesrocket for your 30 dollars off. Before we conclude Joel would love to just hear your closing thought. And then the best place where the listeners get in touch with you.

I think just put patients first. Care about the user experience the patient experience bring all the things we know about consumer design and customer service to healthcare. We can do got some major improvements. When you care about the patient first you put them first. I think everything else falls in place like sort of the right alignment you can find me personally @joelwish on Twitter and also Instagram over joelwish And you can find our apps or @simplecontacts on Twitter

Fantastic. Hey is my pleasure Dolle. So glad you made the time to be on.

Take care. Have a good day.

You too.

Thanks for tuning into the outcomes rocket podcast if you want the show notes, inspiration, transcripts and everything that we talked about on this episode. Just go to And again don't forget to check out the amazing Healthcare Thinkathon where we could get together took form the blueprint for the future of healthcare. You can find more information on that and how to get involved in our theme which is implementation is innovation. Just go to that's be one of the 200 that will participate. Looking forward to seeing you there.

Automatically convert audio to text with Sonix


Recommended Book and Podcast:

The Third Chimpanzee

The Tim Ferriss Show

Best Way to Contact Joel:

Twitter - @joelwish 

Instagram - joelwish

Mentioned Link:

Episode Sponsor: