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Leveraging the Quadruple Aim in Healthcare Innovation with Jeroen Tas, Chief Innovation & Strategy Officer at Philips

Jeroen Tas, Chief Innovation & Strategy Officer at Philips

Leveraging the Quadruple Aim in Healthcare Innovation

In this episode, we interview Jeroen Tas, the Chief Innovation and Strategy Officer of Royal Philips. Jeroen is a great conversationalist and you’ll enjoy hearing him share his thoughts. He shares a personal anecdote and how that has motivated his desire to stay in healthcare. Jeroen also talks about the need for human-centered care. He shares how his company leverages technology to create better outcomes for patients and providing more efficient systems for healthcare workers. Tune in to listen to my full conversation with Jeroen Tas!

Leveraging the Quadruple Aim in Healthcare Innovation with Jeroen Tas, Chief Innovation & Strategy Officer at Philips

About Jeroen Tas

Jeroen is the chief innovation and strategy officer of Royal Philips, a position he’s held since February 2017. He is an experienced global executive and entrepreneur with a track record of leading innovation in healthcare, information technology, and financial services industries. He’s a respected thought leader and was responsible for turning around Philips health care I.T. business and has been instrumental in establishing Health Suite as a new open industry standard for the Healthcare Internet of Things cloud platform. Jeroen joined Philips in 2011, leading I.T. worldwide as group chief information officer. In 2014, he became CEO of Philips Healthcare Informatics Solutions and Services, overseeing digital health and clinical informatics.

Before joining Philips, Jeroen co-founded and served as president, CEO and vice chairman of the Board for Emphasis and I.T. and Business Process Outsourcing Company, which was acquired by HP in 2006. He has been a winner of the NY Entrepreneur of the Year award and many more.


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Saul Marquez:
Welcome back to the Outcomes Rocket. Today, I have the privilege of hosting Jeroen Tas. He’s a chief innovation and strategy officer of Royal Philips, a position he’s held since February 2017. Jeroen is an experienced global executive and entrepreneur with a track record of leading innovation in health care, information technology and financial services industries. He clearly sees the tremendous value that information technology and data can add to managing health, leading the companies global innovation and strategy organization. He’s responsible for M&A strategy, planning, R&D solution design, medical affairs, sustainability, technology platforms, ventures and emerging businesses. He’s in charge of creating a pipeline of innovation in their various businesses that Philips covers within healthcare. They are focused on delivering on the quadruple aim, which is improving health outcomes, improving patient experience, staff satisfaction and lowering the cost of care. And in my interview with Yaroun, he dives deep into how they’re doing that with some great examples that you will enjoy. He is a respected thought leader and was responsible for turning around Philips health care I.T. business and has been instrumental in establishing Health Suite as a new open industry standard for the Healthcare Internet of Things cloud platform. Yarran joined Philips in 2011, leading I.T. worldwide as group chief information officer. In 2014, he became CEO of Philips Healthcare Informatics Solutions and Services, overseeing digital health and clinical informatics.

From 2016, he led the companies Connected Care and Informatics Business, demonstrating a passion to create new models of people centric health care based on the power of information technology. Before joining Philips, Yarran co-founded and served as president, CEO and vice chairman of the Board for Emphasis and I.T. and Business Process Outsourcing Company, which was acquired by HP in 2006. Prior to emphasis, he was head of transaction technology, Citigroup’s tech lab. He was responsible for innovation and development of the bank’s customer facing systems, including Internet banking and self-service devices from 2007 to eight. He was VPN general manager at A.D.s responsible for the company’s global competency centers. He has been a winner of the NY Entrepreneur of the Year award and many more. But in today’s episode, we’re gonna dive into how it’s important to focus on the quadruple aim, but also how diverse mindsets such as Mr. Tosses diverse mindset and experience across different industries can help us in health care and looking at different perspectives to drive the most value for our health care dollar and to provide the best care for patients. So, such a privilege to have Mr. Thomas on the podcast today yet again. Thanks so much for joining me.

Really pleasure to be there.

So so you ruin what an incredible just the work that you do. You know, I had a chance to to really, you know, connect with you a little bit further when we were in Vegas together for the health meeting.

But what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

All right. So there we go. Let’s change topics. You know, Erin, I’d love if you could just share what inspires your your work and health care.

Well, I think like all of us, we have personal stories. We have personal stories, whether it’s related to health. You know, what really motivated me to get into health care is when my daughter was diagnosed with Type one diabetes. She was rushed to the hospital and spent a couple of days in the ICU.

I think it confronted me with the way health care is organized and confronted me with how technology is used. My reaction was, wow, this is going to be so much better. You know, my daughter regularly says I’m actually the day care coordinator because diabetes is a complex disease with complications. They’re mental aspects to it as well. She says, I have to coordinate between care disciplines and I’m also the data aggregator because every time I go somewhere, I need to carry my files and explain what what has happened. And then one of my best friends actually got diagnosed with pancreatic cancer last year. He completely recovers. So that’s to do. But that’s great. But is his experience was also one of you know, I don’t know exactly what’s going on here. I am sent from one person to the other. And, you know, every day you get confronted with, hey, you know, this could have been way, way better. This could have been much more personalized, much more based on who I am. My history. It could be much better coordinated. And I think we all have these personal stories. You know, in this case, my daughter, one of my best friends I experienced last year, the last month in my father’s life, actually. How clunky the health care system was dealing with end of life patients. And I can go on and this motivates me to basically enable a way better system that’s really organized around the needs of patients or consumers, rather, or people, actually.

Why don’t we call it human centered care? Because it’s all about us as humans. And how can we still tap into the deep, deep knowledge that many of the providers, the professionals have? But in a much better way. And I experienced it myself 25 years ago when I was leading Citibank Stack left. We started looking at how can technology help us get way better insight in people’s financial needs and how can we organize around those financial needs. And that has set about a big change in the way the banking system actually was organized. How can we create shared networks? And I see similar needs in health care today. And I hope I can bring some of that experience that I build up in financial services and some of the hands on experience as a father, with a daughter, with a chronic disease. And, you know, creating a little bit better healthcare system, using technology in a way that truly creates better outcomes, not just for the patients, but also for the professionals who spend a lot of time on administrative steps. Or does that don’t have directly to do with dealing with patients and making patients better? And, you know, more efficient system where actually professionals have access to the best information they need to do a diagnosis, selective treatment, then guide that treatment.

Now, that’s interesting. And I, I, I really appreciate you sharing the story of your daughter and your friend. I mean, at the end of the day, health care is personal. And, you know, a lot of people use the word consumerism, health care, consumerism, Right.. That’s the buzzword today. But you used the theme human centered care. And and, you know, around this topic of human centered care for both the provider and the and the patient. I love to hear more about how you and the work at Philips, what you guys are doing to add value to the health care ecosystem.

Yeah. And clearly, it is a tool or two to really make an impact there. But we we started with simple thinks and it sounds simple, but doing it is hard. So so we basically said we re creating these propositions either, you know, let’s say in connected care where we want to give ICU intensive first nurses to Right. tools to better understand their patients, identify deteriorating patients, or we look at diagnosis and want to give your cardiologist and all colleges more precise insight. But what we said is all these propositions should be measurable in four dimensions. And these dimensions are well-known in healthcare. It’s called the quadruple weight. So can we prove that this proposition actually leads to a better health outcome? Can we prove that this proposition actually creates a better experience for the patient? Can we prove that the proposition makes the care more efficient and can impact the cost positively? And then lastly, can we prove that this proposition creates a better experience for the health care professional? Now, that framework is super simple. You know, it is four things you have to measure. Actually, doing it is harder, but it becomes really interesting if you say articulate your value proposition in these terms.

What are the claims you’re going to make here and then show me the evidence that you are actually going to deliver that. And then once you install the proposition, continue to collect evidence and show how you can help our customers create better outcomes. Now. For instance, I can take something as simple as an MRI. You know, everybody knows that taking an image in an MRI is not a very pleasant experience because you were in the machine for 20 minutes and 25 minutes is very noisy. So we started looking at it differently. So how can we use technology to reduce the time you spent in an MRI? And we started applying artificial intelligence to that. And we see tremendous opportunity to redo scan time. So we ready launch a proposition that reduces skin time by 30 to 50 percent. But we’re we’re not done yet.

So but that’s not enough. So that’s already major step. But what if the machine adjust to the patient? Because right now the patient has to breathe in a certain way to get the right image. So when we put in that camera and we detect the breathing veterans of the patient and we actually take the image at the right time. So the machine actually adjusted the patient. What if we can give them a virtual relay reality experience that gives them a wide open space instead of a confined space? What if we now can you like that idea? Are artificial intelligence to help people set? Do redo setup times and find the right protocols? What if we can use artificial intelligence to help reconstruct the image, but also detect the disease only on the image? So now you’re trying to improve on all these aspects. Better patient is being a shorter time, better experience for the technician to set it up. Better experience for the radiologist. You don’t have to send the images back. Way more efficient system. Shorter time. More studies a day. But it changed the way we define our propositions. The same for our minimally invasive catalepsy. What if we can help them do more procedures? What if we can help them optimize their full operations and make sure that the patients are better prepped as a go in for a Cadillac procedure? What if we can help these patients when they leave the cath lab, recover much better and faster? So we’re looking at all these dimensions that sometimes, you know, change a proposition and sometimes a different perspective on a proposition. And once you say, hey, these outcomes are really important unless optimize around those outcomes is also easier to explain. But also, once you have an MRI in the field or you have a catalyst that keeps learning and keeps guiding the staff better and keeps helping stratify patients better, you create ultimately better outcomes for everybody. But it is kind of a different perspective on your proposition, on, you know, how you continuously improve on it and how you continuously guide the professional and the patients to better outcomes.

Now, you know, Gary and I loved the just the focus around the quadruple aim. You can’t go wrong with that. And like you said, it’s it’s it’s easier said than done.

So when you guys deploy a innovations or, you know, different ideas and product iterations, do you look to do all four.

Each time or do you look to tackle one or another? What are your thoughts there? Yeah.

Well, we tried to address all of them and I think we can. If you put your mind to it, because I think they’re all important and obviously the better the experience. So there is also a relation, obviously, the better the experience for the professional. They have the right information to do with with the right tools. Therefore, they can make the best diagnosis, select the best treatments. We can guide the patient better in that treatment. It all will lead to better outcomes and also at lower costs. But sometimes is hard. And for instance, if you say there’s some principles that that apply to everything, the first principle is the more we know about the patient and the more we understand the longer term view of the patient, the better we can select the right diagnostics or the right therapy. But how do you get that information? How do you make sure that information is fully contextualized and ready to be used? You know, in our health system where data doesn’t really flow to, well, you know, it can be hard to actually create something that can live up to its full potential. So so there are a lot of enablers that are important, you know, because an MRI machine doesn’t live in isolation, that a cat doesn’t live in isolation, patient monitor doesn’t live in. Isolation. So what can we do better on the system level? Do have a secure way for that information to flow better? Well, we can you know, sometimes also the way people work will change.

If we say, for instance, you know, we can remotely monitor these patients because they have five or six chronic diseases. They live at home. And they’re presenting a big load on the system. How can we better help them and guide them at home? You typically look a different way working. You need, you know, a central remote care hub where you have care teams that work together that that may be monitoring thousands of patients simultaneously and they may deal with these patients through to a video or a phone call. You change the way you practice health care and also the way health care gets reimbursed. We’ll have to change to get the most out of these new models. So there’s a bunch of things that that kind of hold it back and need to address. So are we moving the reimbursement towards those outcomes and therefore make these solutions more relevant? Are these solutions better integrated into a system that enables data to flow better? And are we setting up the care teams in a different way? More multidisciplinary teams dealing with larger numbers of patients, sometimes remotely. And can we support these new ways of basically practicing medicine? I think we we still have to make progress on many of these barriers.

Now, I would agree and the amount of time and resources that go into developing, you know, point of care solutions vs. tackling that entire spectrum of of the continuum of care, you know, is that varies from organization to organization.

How would you say it makes what Philips does better or are different than what’s available today?

Well, I you know, maybe we’re no better, but clearly we set ourselves higher goals. So we basically said we’re going to be healthier. Only company. We’re going to embrace the the consumer side as well as the professional side, because we believe that to be able to really have a systemic impact, you really need to understand people or consumers, whatever you want to call them. But we all know that the behavioral aspects people call them, many times they talk about a social determinants of health. And that’s important because it truly determines health. But Otomi is it’s the behaviors that, you know, that impact health or disease. And I think we will move to a system where the clinical and the behavioral aspects are equally import. So that consumer insight into how consumers, you know, deal with that, I think is something where we are kind of unique in the space. On the other side, we also believe that the days of the point solutions are numbered. We still do points because that’s still the way many people procure how they procure patient monitors. They don’t procure a system to optimize their intensive care unit, optimize your length of stay, have early insight in deterioration and avoid mortel at the true, you know, detecting sepsis or cardiac arrest. That’s still not how people procure. But we see movement in that direction. We believe we are ready for that because that’s that’s how we look at our proposition. We don’t see a monitor as a physical box that beeps, that shows graphs. We see a monitor as a manifestation of deep insights in the condition of the patient and the ability to forecast whether the patient is on the right path or not. And that may then lead to an intervention. You know, it’s interesting that there are quite a number of hospitals they use are EIC. You are telehealth. Where we remotely support an ICU is actually quite well accepted, especially in North America.

But now imagine what’s happening there. There’s a number of people sitting behind big screens and they’re you know, they get a camera stream at element three from an ICU bed and they can then guide and support nurses that are on call in the ICU at the other side sometimes or literally at the other side of the world. And, you know, there’s a lot of evidence that it’s creates better outcomes. It’s this, you know, good support to those nurses is more efficient. Mortality is down. Length of stay is optimized. And it’s a well accepted way to do that. But no. Why don’t we? If we can do that for the sickest patients, why don’t we expand that across?

Why don’t we start doing virtual cardiac care? Virtual cancer care. Virtual mental care. So what we are looking for is, is these broader holistic models. And obviously are specific products need to fit in. If you want to do precise diagnosis and see a cancer on an image, quantify it and then take tissue. You do a more molecular analysis through digital pathology. Do a genetic analysis. Maybe a liquid biopsy. Maybe in the future. Proteomics. So how do you then bring that all together into a precise profile? And then the modalities, you know, an MRI, C.T., they’re usually important. But what’s really more important is how they all contribute to a much more precise diagnosis, where you look at the heart or you look at the cancer from all these perspectives and you characteris correct prices in detail, then you go beyond the modality. And that’s where we that’s what we really hold it. You know, can we look at cardiac care not just from the perspective of, you know, a stent or medication, but can we look at listening? Can we understand populations at risk? Can we understand people with chronic heart failure, with a history of cardiac problems? Maybe people who had a stroke? Can we better understand the risk of these people? Can we down to the care pathways for those people? And these care pathways are largely outside the hospital because, you know, most of the time you’re not in the hospital.

How can we link that back to our cardiac informatics, the workstation that the cardiologist looks at? How can we bring it closer to where patients are by, for instance, using a tablet, these ultrasounds where you can detect cardiac disease? Press a button and then talk to a cardiologist. If you then need a minimally invasive procedure, maybe inserted a stent or maybe the stent cuts from the Tronic or Boston Scientific or, you know, how can you then create the Right. ecosystem? If a patient has cardiac arrest, how do you know the closest person who has CPR? Where do closes a ideas and how to treat that as quickly as possible? How do you know these people that have actually cardiac arrest and have start looking for early and you know you know what I’m getting at? We are totally we start looking at all of these perspectives and then we say, hey, there are all great points loses. But how can we weave them together and superior cardiac care. And then how can we leverage maybe not what, you know, just cardiologists in your region or local hospital. How can we plug them into a network of the world’s best cardiologists? So that’s kind of why we’re pursuing.

Yeah. And, you know, it’s a fascinating approach making these deep insights at the system level while at the same time responding to the market with point solutions, because that’s how they procure.

I mean, it’s you know, there is tension there. What’s that? There is sometimes tension there. But I think I think we have to do both.

I you know, it’s like they were emboldening or great point solutions because we’re going to do the big stuff. No, no, you you have to do both. You just have to make sure that your point’s delusions actually become a building block for something bigger.

Yes. And, you know, I think that that approach is very forward thinking and and one that I think does distinguish the work that you and I and the team at Philips does. So definitely want to give you guys big kudos for for that. You mentioned that the consumer insights, another aspect that makes you guys unique. It’s these things are important in today’s in today’s health care economy. What would you say is is an example of outcomes that have improved our business processes that you guys have helped improve through implementing your technologies or our solutions?

I think another you know, I mentioned what we’re doing in the catheter lapsed minimally invasive procedures. But I think another area I want to highlight is the work we’re doing in the sleep, a respiratory care specifically in the area of sleep apnea. It’s a largely underdiagnosed disease. So only about 20, 20 percent of people with sleep apnea actually have been diagnosed with undergoing sleep therapy. Using our seatbelts. We believe there’s a huge opportunity to help health systems to better understand their population and actually to the data, find out who might be at risk. Then we create. A trio vanishing. That actually allows you to answer dynamically a number of questions that can tell us whether you you probably are suffering from sleep apnea or at high risk. And then we can guide you to the Right. sleep therapist, but also ones you are undergoing. The sleep therapy will track your sleep. And we actually geitz you know, every night will debut on the best way to undergo the therapy and get you to a better place. So, so we kind of creating a close loop between, you know, how can we help you diagnose or detect, links you to the professional system, get you to write master Right.

therapy during your therapy. How can we give you constant feedback to put you in a better place and avoid any complications associated with the disease? And how can we provide the evidence for that? So the evidence means that, hey, you know, payers, if you do early detection and you do the right therapy, you actually can avoid a whole bunch of downstream costs. And hey, patients, if you really undergo this therapy and you follow the guidance, you will be in a better place. So you will start really controlling your condition. And I think these these close loop or at least closing the loop between, you know, diagnosis, the right fit treatment and the outcome of the treatment, bringing that back to the way you diagnose or stratify first and then diagnose patient, optimize that consoli, optimize that therapy through feedback. I think that holds a whole lot of promise, not just for sleep apnea, but virtually any chronic disease beyond.

Yeah, and that’s a that’s a fascinating approach. And are you, sir, with this app, you’re following the patient from diagnosis at the hospital to therapy in the home with feedback while they’re at home.

Exactly. And so these are our smart sleep apps that not only adjust to your your own breathing pathogens, they also give you insights and guidance or your therapy. And I think it’s a model that that really can be extended to other chronic diseases as well.


You want to make it smarter and smarter. So, yes, it should actually ask you a couple of questions every morning that are related to your health. So, you know, we’re constantly looking at how can we create these highly engaging care pathways that ask you the right questions and make sure that you follow your therapy. That makes sure that the right information gets, you know, almost interpreted on the fly and be presented back as feedback or as an alert to, you know, the virtual team that’s watching over you and say, hey, this guy needs an intervention because he’s dropping out from the therapy. Or, you know, we see some other indicators that this might go the wrong way. So please intervene now.

And these kind of models are well known outside the health care industry. In the banking world where I come from, we used to identify those customers that had a very high risk to move their business or account elsewhere.

And we preemptively would do an outbound call to pull them back in and to make sure that they stayed happy.

And so I think there are many things we can learn from the consumer industry at Citibank. Twenty five years ago, we already did real stratification of customers on their financial needs. We would organize these people in segments with similar needs and then we would map them to the proposition that we could deliver. You know, you could imagine that this would work really well in healthcare and not just understanding patient from a clinical needs, but an overall outcomes in needs. And then you see Ferenz going back to these patients that, you know, may have five or six chronic diseases that are six medications. They also happen to be the people that clog up the system. You know, it’s five percent that occupies 50 percent. So there are better models. And we’ve seen that in trials where we could dramatically reduce emergency care readmissions, give people their lives back, and just by remote monitoring and intervening in the right time. And that intervention could be a maybe the neighbors should look into or we send a nurse to the home or we do a two way video session or actually we’re sending an ambulance. But, you know, the idea also that you can create a care pathway that not only includes professionals, but may even include friends of family. So I think, to be honest, my wife. More about my daughter’s health than any of the professionals. So I believe she should be part of my daughter’s scared ness, but it’s just not part of the way we’re organized. And I think that mix of friends and family who may have maybe not clinical, but other types of observations that may be highly relevant to the Right. selecting the right care pathway and the Right. care pathway is not just going to be a clinical one. It’s going to be a clinical and behavioral one.

Yeah. And I love the idea of, you know, borrowing from other industries. And, you know, you’re working at Citibank, applying it to here. I mean, the the concept of being able to identify if a customer is going to leave, like that’s fascinating to me. Is that done? What technology is used for that?

Is it is it it’s a I know it used to be B.I, but now is a I. So you basically are looking for early indicators of defection, if you will. So you can you can see that in certain behaviors. And once you notice, they basically have what’s called a retention organization, that the retention, the Azara whose role is to keep them in and to make sure that they understand why they want to leave. They may even see it before they actually consciously make the decision to.

You know, it’s also. That’s fascinating.

But it’s also what some of the gyms do these days. You know, they look at you as I get these messages from why do so? They first send me messages. And they can see, hey, this guy is starting to drop out. He’s not showing up in the gym anymore. Maybe we should pull it back.

That’s awesome. Yeah. And, you know, and these things exist, but now they’re not being implemented. Right. I mean, we have clinical decision support behind that mapping of is a patient deteriorating, but it’s not quite there. The adoption of these technologies, as you as you think about some of the setbacks you’ve had. Well, what would you say is is one of those key setbacks and learning that you came from that came from it?

Well, you know, I had a whole lot of learnings. I think the biggest learning I had when I I got into healthcare technology was that I assumed the new these new technologies would be adopted way faster. The you know, I was not fully aware, to be honest, that. How important reimbursement is. You know, the reimbursement goat determines everything. So I was looking at it much more from, OK. I, I see where the opportunity where the needs are. But I didn’t fully comprehend how the the reimbursement, the reluctance to change, you know, the embedded ways working. I expected it would go faster.

So, you know, I look back and say, hey, I was kind of naive in that, maybe because I grew up in financial services and I.T.. You know, so I was used to industries where things were disrupted quickly.

You you reset quickly and you adopt new ways, because if you don’t, you don’t exist. But that doesn’t apply to health care. So I got a little bit more careful before I would propose to do anything. I would first look at how much change does this imply? Is the reimbursement system supporting it? Where will be the pressure points? So I think my biggest lesson is that healthcare requires you to be a little bit more careful, a little bit more patient and take it a step at a time. But still never give up because, you know, in a system where in the US there’s well over 20 percent of the waste, which is more than the entire GDP of the Netherlands. We cannot just sit back and let it happen. I think we all have to work towards a way better system.

Love it. Great, great. Great experience and share there. And. And so if you think about today, Yaroun, what would you say you’re most excited about today?

You know, I’m excited about two things that I’ll give you as an example. And they both have to do with what we’re doing in in cancer care, in oncology. OK. You know, I talked earlier about, hey, if you combine what you see on images with what you see in the pathology and genomics liquid, this, then you get a pretty good profile of the cancer. But then how do you find the right therapy? We started work with. Dana Farber, you know, implementing their cancer pathways. And then we started working with the endosome on some of their their contents, you know, their deep knowledge in a conflict on cancer, because here’s something that that’s struck with me. When I met the CEO of health, Dana Farber, she said that, you know, interestingly, most of our patients are coming from the greater Boston area. She said we’re truly one of the world’s top cancer hospitals.

But she said eighty 85 percent of all cancers are diagnosed and treated in community hospitals. And there’s just no way they can keep up with what’s happening in this space. You know, the diagnostic, the therapies that are common coming so complex. And then she said, what if we could, if any, hospital access to all that we know and we can you know, they can use their diagnostic capability, their oncologist can tap into our pathways. They could actually even do a virtual to more board. We could raise the quality of cancer care around the world. So I got thinking about, wow, if if we can pull this off, we can basically give any hospital access to World-Class Cancer Care. Yes. And then I was in our lab and our team showed me something that blew me away. They said, OK, if you have a high probability of lung cancer, you just come into our lab. We’ll diagnose you on the spot. We’ll use a to assess and quantify disease. And actually, if it’s early stage, we can go and treated there and we can blame the cancer. So we can take a no do and freeze it or or so it essentially means you come in the machine diagnosis that you and treat you at the same time. And that made me think of that movie Elysium. I don’t know if you refuses.

I haven’t. What’s the name of that lithium.

They they have this machine. You go in diagnosis is you and it treat you. And I said, wow, this is like that movie. Like the movie where you come in, you get diagnosed, you actually get 3-D. So if I look at what we still could do in this space of these minimally invasive procedures, you know, the quality of care that that is applied there, you know, I get extremely optimistic about what we can do in cancer care. And I really believe in the next couple of years we’ll see a whole lot of progress there. And it will be true. These platforms can truly democratize access to quality cancer care. I think it will have a huge impact on the world. So that’s that’s what I’m really, really excited about.

Yeah. And it’s a big problem. Right. And if we could do that, I mean, that’s just I share your excitement, Aaron. Well, what would you say is the book that you would recommend to people listening today?

Well, there are a couple of really good healthcare related books. You know, Eric Topol is is one of the great writers and a good friend to go on is absolutely great writer friend. You know, he wrote The Checklist manifesto that helped me rethink what we could do to really help specialists in their care. But the book that, you know, takes into a couple of levels up is 21 Lessons for the 21st Century by Harari. So he is the guy who also wrote Sapiens, Sapiens and Homo Days. I listened to him again last month in Davos. You know, the way he looks at the world, the impact of technology sometimes is a little bit dystopian that I think is Incise or Spoto. And I learn a lot from that. I also learn a lot about what we need to work for to really keep technology to be on our side and not start working against what makes it human.

What a great recommendation. Yeah. It’s 21 Lessons for the 21st Century by Harare and folks. You can go to Outcomes Racket that health in the search bar type in either Phillips or type in Yaroun, which is J.E. R o n or you could type in his last name, Tuss T. S. And the show notes will pop up with links to our conversation, links to the book that he’s recommended, as well as the full transcript of our discussion. Get in. This is. And a ton of fun. I’ve really enjoyed this. I’m sure the listeners are as well.

Leave us with the closing thought and and the best place where where the listeners could follow you and get in touch.

Well, I would say my father’s almost Oldfield’s. I think we we really are at a point where we can dramatically improve access to care and the quality of care. But by using technology wisely in the Right. system. So I think it’s up to us to get us there. We could do it. I love to continue this dialogue with anybody. I’m quite active on LinkedIn. I regularly post blocks. I love it when people give me comments and feedback. Also, I love it when they don’t agree with me because the best way to learn more is by being challenged. And always learn from somebody else’s perspectives.

Well, get an I love what you post. You know, I’m always I follow the stuff you put on there. So, folks, I would recommend if you’re not following the work that Yeadon does, it’s very thought provoking and always food for thought. If you’re looking to make an impact in health care, so great ways to get in touch with you. Appreciate that yet again and again. Just want to say thanks for spending some time with us.

It’s been a lot of fun everyday. Thank you. So. And looking forward to seeing you again. Maybe not in Las Vegas, but I’m sure we’ll see each other soon again. Thanks. Thanks so much for having me on your product.

Thank you.

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