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Improving Outcomes by Improving Sleep with Michael Kisch, Founder and CEO Beddr Sleep

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas, great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is slow. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back to the broadcast. Today I have an amazing guest for you. His name is Michael Kisch. He's a founder and CEO of Better Sleep. Mike likes to make the complex simple engaging and accessible to more people. He's passionate about applying this philosophy to health care. Previously Mike was the founding CEO of Soundhawk. It's a wearable hearing enhancement company that developed the first connected hearing device. He led the company from concept to commercialization and multi million dollars in revenue. He is a bright mind in this space and it's super exciting to be able to connect with you today, Michael. hanks for joining us.

Well thanks for having me on. I'm honored to be here.

Hey so tell me what did I leave out of your intro that you want the listeners to know about you.

Proud father of three. I have three kids: twins and I have a 11 year old daughter as well and that's sort of the personal information. I've spent time on the East Coast. We've just talked to you about Midwest and in California in the last 18-19 years and I've seen a lot and hope to continue to see more.

That's awesome man. You've trekked the country, you've seen the cities sort of the differences and now you're back in California and you've taken a dive into this health care sector even deeper. And so I'm curious what got you into it to begin with?

Sure. So I spent the first 15 years of my career largely in consumer packaged goods. I worked for Kraft Foods outside of Chicago Anheuser-Busch and then I moved on to Cisco Systems where I worked in there sort of emerging technologies group. And so I was part of the team that would incubate lots of new products. And it was everything from connected video cameras to sort of video conferencing systems and one of the things that was consistent across a lot of those products was taking the complexity out of the experience for the user and making things simple accessible and easy for them to use. And about six or seven years ago I had an opportunity to come into the health care space with the company mentioned Soundhawk and you just saw that there were a lot of opportunities to deliver better products, better experiences that were placing the patient really at sort of the center of the experience. So when I looked at the skills and the experiences that I had acquired it just became really logical for me to sort of begin to apply those to healthcare. First on hearing aids and now sort of in the realm of sleep tech which is another area that there's a lot of very well intentioned people but I think everyone agrees that these products and experiences need to get better if we're going to deliver improved outcomes at lower cost.

Amen to that brother. So yeah you know like the user interface of healthcare as one of my previous guests mentioned is broken. And so your skills are highly valued here my friend. Talk to us about Beddr. What do you guys do there? And then let's dive into what you guys at Beddr think a hot topic in medicine is in how you're addressing it.

Sure. So at the highest level our mission is really to help people understand and solve their sleep problems. So pretty obvious pretty basic but there's two components of that that I think are critical. The first part is understanding like how do we empower an individual on their own to really get a view into what we spend a third of our life doing because we're asleep while we're doing it we really don't understand what's going on with our sleep and how good it is, how bad it is and what choices we make are actually having a positive or a negative impact. And what we've just brought to market is a product called the sleep tuner which is the small wearable sensor about the size of a stamp the weight of a nickel and you wear it for multiple nights while you sleep. And it tells you some really interesting information about your blood oxygen level. If you've stopped breathing, your sleep position, your heart rate in a range of other things. This is the first product along sort of a pathway that we're going to really give people sort of accurate and affordable and accessible products that help them understand their sleep to a greater degree than they've ever been able to in the past on their own. The second thing that we're building out is just helping someone understand is not a solution. It's sort of the onboarding an entree if you will to how do we actually direct them to the appropriate treatment path that's most likely to be able to help them and this is really the second part of what better is doing is we're building on a way for people to get a formal diagnosis if they have a sleep disorder. But also we're using data along with the intuition and expertise of sleep physicians to direct people to a therapy path that stands the greatest chance of actually being successful for them. That's I think in a nutshell the crux of what we're going to be building and rolling out here over the course of the next six to nine months.

That's exciting and I don't remember the statistic but I know it's pretty high. I think it's something like 1 in 4 people have sleep apnea or even two out of one out of two.

It's about 54 million U.S. adults out of 219. So roughly one in four. You were right the first...

One of four. Yeah that's a lot. And of those a very small percentage are actually diagnosed or even no. So this is pretty cool stuff. Now folks better sounds like Better But it's actually better Beddr kind of like bed doctor. Pretty cool play on words there. So the device actually goes on the forehead right.

That's right it goes on the forehead for three reasons one which is not a lot of nerves in your forehead. So you don't feel it. So one of the things we will do is when people are taking assessments there's no observer effect, there's no impotence of their sort of sleep or were disrupting interrupting it or causing it to be worse because of the actual testing sensor. The second reason is for people who have breathing issues when they sleep. One of the biggest determinants is the position of their head which therefore is a proxy for the position of their airway. And so when we sleep on our back gravity works against us and it generally leads to more sensations and really and then when we're on our side and then the third reason the forehead makes sense is that we get a really good signal for Sp02 or blood oxygen saturation on the forehead. So there was a lot of scientific logic that went into us choosing the forehead as the place where you were the device.

Very cool. Very cool. So folks take a look at this pretty cool. https://www.beddrsleep.com/ you'll see what we're talking about here. So as we dive into this Michael tell us a little bit about how you guys see this product improving the lives of those with sleep apnea.

I think there's a there's a number of fronts where we already see this making a huge impact. One it's just about giving people access to sort of accurate information that helps them understand what the risk factors are as it relates to the cause of their sleep issues. So with our product a person can test each night for tens of dollars versus if they have to wait to go into the traditional sleep medicine system just to get it sort of an early indication of something's wrong. That could be thousands of dollars that could take them up to six months to actually get scheduled. We do it for tens of dollars and people are able to do it within just a couple of days.

It's pretty amazing man.

Yeah this is I think this is where there's a huge opportunity and in medicine is if you look at sort of any chronic group of people there's just some people who are relatively simple to ascertain what's going on and then to ultimately get them to a diagnosis. And then there's another group who have much more complex cases and there's lots of sort of comorbidities and there's lots of conditions that are interacting in a way that look may need to go through a much much more robust and comprehensive sort of assessment. And we really see ourselves as helping physicians and the overall medical community. Let's work on the easy there's more simple to classify people and let's address them in a simpler more straightforward way so that more resources are being applied to the more complex the difficult to diagnose cases and that's a way we really see as an opportunity to drive efficiency and the system is put the resources on the hardest cases and then allow technology to really play a more active role with the more straightforward and simple to understand situations.

Fascinating. And you know one of the things that just rises to mind Michael is as we see more digital technologies infiltrating our health space. I think it really becomes the responsibility of providers to stay on top of it because these technologies they definitely are useful and customers are used to interfacing with things that are simple partnerships are great and opportunities to see how how these technologies could better impact workflow are key because if we don't consider them then they can become very disruptive. Would you agree?

I totally agree I think this is having now been a CEO to digital health companies. I've seen it sort of in two different examples. Our perspective is we're not here to disrupt we're not here to put somebody out of business or to take revenue from someone else that is just not the objective that drives our view is that there is just a simple or better way to do things for a certain group of people. And I think by being perhaps more narrow in our focus and being clear about what our ambitions are both what we're going to do and what we're not going to do we've actually seen a lot of advocacy from the sleep physician community because they've looked at us as well. You're actually going to help solve the very problems that we've been trying to address for a couple of decades and they also understand that there are some boundaries that we've put in place. We're not trying to put a sleep lab or a sleep position out of business. What we're trying to say is look you know there's a huge population of people out there that are never going to make it to you that we now will have access to and that we can bring them to you or we can at least give them access to you in a more efficient way that improves things for everybody that allows sleep physicians to be able to impact more people and that allows people to have more ready and easily available in affordable access to true expertise. We see ourselves as kind of that bridge between the individual, the consumer, the healthcare and the expert and we serve both of them. By serving both of them we think we can build a better solution that brings both of them together in a more efficient manner.

Now for sure. Now very eloquently said and think that it goes back to those partnerships right. You guys are not here to disrupt. You guys are here to partner and a lot of people go on diagnosed so I think going the consumer route is a great way to capture that. What would you say the main thing right now that that is going to be what improves outcomes with what you guys do?

So I think there's two areas that we're really focused on. One is if we look at this broad population of 54 million people just getting them made aware that they may be at risk and then actually getting them to a formal diagnosis that's going to improve the outcome for that undiagnosed and tested population. There is absolutely no doubt.

For sure.

I think the second area that is going to become very powerful is how do we harness the data that is being sort of cultivated across our system to assist in what we call sort of patient therapy magic. And so if you look at a condition like apnea there's four or five different therapy paths that could have a positive impact. What people don't really understand now is who is going to be best suited to each one of those paths. And there's an absence of data that exists to be able to do that in a more accurate predictive fashion. One of the cool things that we've done by making the sensor both accurate but affordable is a consumer now owns this product so they can test to establish a baseline but they can also test once they've started therapy to actually determine what's the impact of the therapy on the quality of their sleep. And so it's the ability to bridge that sort of lifecycle of the consumer and the user of this product that is going to drive a much more efficient matching of patient and therapy which should improve what we call compliance and as compliance goes higher outcomes will go higher as well. And so that's where I think we get really excited passion about what we're doing. It's this concept of access and then also driving greater engagement from the user because we know those two will actually contribute to a real significant improvement in outcomes.

That's awesome man. I think that's a fantastic idea and the numbers are there. Am excited to see what you guys create.

You just go to our website you can see it it's right there. We just had our first manufacturing run of product and it's now getting...

Congratulations.

Yeah it was. It's been an 18 24 month journey but we're excited where we're at right now and we were excited we just coming out of beta testing right now and the experience that people have had the reaction to the product has been overwhelmingly positive so we're we're ready to give birth so to speak. Greatest product into the world and hopefully help a lot of people that's really the primary motivation.

Well congratulations on getting to this big milestone man.

Thank you.

That's huge. So let's talk about you know you've had a lot of different experiences Michael. What would you say one of the biggest setbacks you've had and what did you learn from that?

Sure. Great question. So my first CEO role I was a CEO of Sundhawk which did some really interesting cutting edge stuff. So the whole basis of Soundhawk you would allow people to self fit a hearing assistance device versus have to go in for a hearing test and then sort of a battery of acoustic fittings and so killer person could simply place their finger on a smartphone screen and as they move that around it would actually change to sort of achieve a setting where they could hear things more clearly.

That's pretty cool.

You could also change a dynamically based upon the environment that you were in. And so you know it was the classic example of you're building a better mousetrap and you sort of expect the better mousetrap is going to lead to business success and ultimately it didn't. And when I look at why we did a very poor job at that company of understanding where we need to be different and where we need to be the same as sort of the status quo. And I'll give you an example.

OK.

We wanted to be different from a regulatory perspective that we want him to be classified differently therefore we will have the ability to make different claims. We want to have a different go to market. We wanted to have a different across a range of things and it was so different that it just was difficult for people to fully assess understand. And that really sort of extended the time period that we had to build trust and credibility and ultimately build up a successful sales pipeline. And so when I look at it in retrospect it was very clear that you need to be different in certain areas and in other areas you just need to sort of look very similar to the way things are and that's very much inform the approach that we've taken at Beddr where look the product is different the delivery model is different, the pricing model is very different. But the things that are the same are that the data we gather and the accuracy of that data is absolutely consistent with what a board certified sleep position has been comfortable with for the last decade or two. So that was I think the big insight from the Soundhawk experience is definitely be different in certain areas but don't go against the workflow don't try to convince people in certain areas where they have just grown really accustomed to the way things have been and they're comfortable with that. And I think that nuance is one that a lot of people when they first come into health care they don't understand. They just take the classic sort of disruptive mentality where it's like well we need to be different whatever they've done before we'll just be different. Yeah applying a lot of intelligence and sophistication and said that and I think you know I encourage people just really know yourself and know the market and know who your partners are going to be and know who you're going to be building relationships with and then factor that into how you think about your product you will go to market your overall business model.

Michael I think that's tremendously insightful and being different for the sake of different isn't going to get you there. So take a step back and think through that. I think his words of wisdom that I think everybody needs to take the heart. Definitely appreciate you sharing that Michael straight from the trenches. It's so valuable.

Happy to do so.

So what would you say the other side of the coin. One of your proudest and just awesome leadership experiences in healthcare that you've had to date?

I think it's I've been at the head of building to digital health companies completely from scratch into areas that are not meaningful but they're not the highest profile perhaps buzziest areas of medicine one being hearing loss and the other being apnea. But these are two conditions that dramatically impair a person's quality of life both in the near term as well as the long term. And I think in both situations we've been able to bring you know a much better experience to the consumer and we've enabled them to both understand more about what's going on but we've also given them a lot more control over their lives and their ability to sort of manage these conditions and I think that's what I'm most proud about is you know we're empowering people to live a better life. And that's sort of the mission that drives us both here. But it was also the mission that drove us previously at Soundhawk.

That's great man. And sleep is so important and I think the education piece will definitely be huge for those of us without apnea. And for those with apnea I think it's so key to understand the value of sleep. The days of being sleep deprived and wearing that as a badge of honor I think are starting to go away. There may be some pockets of it still but I think what you and your team are doing to get that education out there is pretty huge.

Yeah it's interesting. Definitely the mentality towards getting the right amount of sleep. You see this with thought leaders like Arianna Huffington at Thrive Global these people who are proudly saying that you know I need to get my seven eight hours of sleep per night because it makes me a better person. It makes me a better leader. I think it's exciting and I think it's sort of you know it's a wind in our sails basically anybody who's in the sort of sleep business right now. And I think when we look specifically at breathing issues when we sleep I think it's people are really starting to come to recognition that this impacts a much broader population of people and that it's these breathing disruptions that actually oftentimes are contributing to insomnia but they're also sort of accelerants to a range of other chronic conditions that people may have from type 2 diabetes hypertension to mental health issues and I think what we've been really excited about is just the since we've seen from the broader health care community because they see us doing something that certainly helps our particular group of customers in our business. They see the application to support the digital therapies that they have or the employer programs that where we're now. And that's great that just means we're doing the right things and we're working on things that have a broader impact perhaps in ways that even we can't anticipate this point.

That's outstanding. So I know that Beddr is about to have its official debut. That's an exciting project. Is there anything within what you're doing now. That's a very exciting project our focus that you're very very drilled into?

There is. So. When we thought about how we were going to roll out the business and specifically the product the wearable sensor that we call the sleep tuner was the first thing we needed to focus on because we needed a way to gather clinically valid accurate information. So the sleep tuner is designed to do that. Now what we're focused on is what do we do with that data not only what do we do for the individual but more about that community and how is this information going to be anonymized, aggregated, analyzed and then delivered back in a meaningful way to both the consumer but also to the clinician. And so this is really the next phase of the company that we're really focused on right now as we begin to see data flowing through the system. It's amazing what you can learn. It's amazing how much of an impact just simple choices like having two drinks within a couple hours of going to bed or when we have colds and allergies the impact that these things are having on our sleep quality. And now the ability to quantify that and then provide back to the individual thoughtful and actionable recommendations for things that they can do on their own that we know there's a very high likelihood that it's going to improve their sleep.

Man, that's exciting as that data piece you know that data piece is what differentiates.

We knew when we started the company that the sort of future of sleep medicine was going to be driven by data science. And what was required was how can you cost effectively gather that information at a scale that's never been done before in the past. And so you know right now there's really kind of two models. One is the classic overnight sleep test which is an incredibly accurate comprehensive test. But you'll only have a chance to do it once in an environment that is not your home.

Right.

And then on the other end of the spectrum you've got consumer sleep trackers which are not validated or are approved by the FDA and they don't gather the information that is considered gold standard. So they may have billions of nights of data. It's just the wrong data of probably questionable accuracy. So in the middle is this really fascinating opportunity that we've been driving towards which is can we gather the most important information that you would get from an overnight sleep test but over multiple nights in a very cost effective scalable way and even now when we see the data flow through the system you're seeing all these relationships that have been hinted at in sort of peer reviewed research but have never been sort of they never reached a degree of being considered conclusive. And I think we're going to be a huge agent in really helping drive greater understanding of these issues and the data we're gathering.

Love it. That's so awesome specially the patient level and then also the science level and the things that you guys are going to be able to contribute. That's awesome man. Congratulations.

Thank you.

So getting close to the end here Michael. Let's pretend. You and I are building a leadership course and what it takes to be successful in the business of healthcare the 101 of a Michael Kisch. So I've got four questions for you. Lightning round style followed by a book that you recommend to the listeners. You ready?

Yep.

What's the best way to improve healthcare outcomes.

Engage the patient as an active instead of a passive participant.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Don't avoid or go around the FDA or physician experts engage with them. Doesn't mean you have to agree with them. But a robust give and take will make a better product and a better business.

Love that. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Always stay focused on doing a better job of solving the customer's problem.

What is one area of focus that drives everything in your organization?

We are all about empowering our customers to understand and more importantly solve their sleep problems.

Love that and would you say the book you recommend to the listeners as part of the syllabus?

Can I give you three or do I have to give you one?

Give us three man.

All right so here's here's three books sort of three various points my sort of journey. So the first one is by Clayton Christiansen. That's a different type of Clayton Christiansen book it's called How Will You Measure Your Life. I won't go into it in great detail but it was a book I read it sort of critical fork in the road as it related to what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. And I found it deeply informative, inspirational and it gave me the confidence to sort of continue on the digital health path when maybe I was questioning if that was the right path to be on. Second one is the Undoing project by Michael Lewis. So if anybody has an interest in the way that people human beings make decisions both for right and for wrong this to me is the most accessible book that you'll ever read about. Two Israeli psychologists one named Amos to be risky. One named Danny caught a man who basically did all the seminal work on heuristics and judgment and decision making. That's really a fascinating read and Lewis does a great job of taking the academic and making it accessible by the third one which I just finished reading on vacation with my family is David versus Goliath by Malcolm Gladwell. Yes I really like this book because I've been in startups now for the last 6-8 years and most of the time people think you're insane. Like how can you go challenge the incumbent. It's like this is a great book where you realize that there's actually significant disadvantages to being the giant with a particular category and that if you understand that as a startup there is some paths you can choose that really increase your rate of success.

Great recommendations Michael. Love that last one. One that I've definitely read and I think is so good. The other two haven't. So adding those to the list appreciate you highlighting these reads as well as the syllabus overview. Listeners you could find all of that at outcomesrocket.health/beddr and you'll find the transcript of our conversation. Links to those books links to the company. You wanna get yourself one of these devices or sign up before early release. You can do that there. Michael this has been fun man.

Saul thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed it.

Absolutely. Now before we go though I love if you could just share a closing thought. And then the best place for the listeners could get in touch with or follow you.

Closing thought. Well here is my closing thought. I think that we're about to enter a phase here where we're going to really see a rather radical acceleration change in the healthcare landscape and I'm assuming most of your listeners. They've been in health care for an extended period of time. They've heard that change is coming and they've wondered Is that truly going to happen. Or is the status quo going to continue to prevail. My sense now is that we are about to witness significant change and that there is new entrants there's new companies that are bringing even more force for change. I'm incredibly excited about that I think anybody who's sort of been in the health care space should be incredibly excited about that because I think a lot of the stuff that's frustrated us we're going to begin to see some really positive movement forward as as more people really come together to solve some of these big problems.

Love that Michael. And would you say the best place for listeners to get in touch or follow you is.

I'm on Twitter. So it's surfski.. The two things I use to do lots of I do not do as much.

Before you're a healthcare CEO.

You got it. And before I had three kids those two things occupy most of my time. Also feel free to just reach out and connect on LinkedIn or you know come to our website sign up for a newsletter we generate lots and lots of real relevant content related to sleep. So whether you have apnea or not we will certainly try to educate you about sleep problems and the impact of sleep on your overall health and well-being.

Outstanding. Hey sleep is so important to me, Mike. And I know for the rest of the listeners so keep up the amazing work that you're up to man. And thanks for carving out time for us.

Thanks, Saul. Appreciate it.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas, great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is slow. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Create Healthcare Customers for Life with Carina Edwards, Sr. Vice President, Customer Experience at Imprivata

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas, great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is slow. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. Today I have the outstanding Carina Edwards. She's a Senior Vice President of Customer Experience at Imprivatato. Carina is responsible for all customer facing operations that fuel customer success including Worldwide Professional Services, Worldwide Customer Service Support and Advocacy, Business Development and Corporate I.T. She brings 22 years of experience in health care technology which many of you have a keen interest in. This health care technology space is a growing one. And with that it's important that we hone in deeper and share best practices with our peers and Carina has a wealth of knowledge and experience here. She got to focus on speed to transformation brings a strong track record of helping companies realize their next stages of growth and creating customers for life. It's a pleasure to have Carina on the podcast. Then Carina I want to just open up the mic to you to fill in the gaps of that intro. Welcome to the podcast.

Thank you so much for that. And I guess the other thing I would add is I'm not really an avid golfer and a foodie and I really enjoy all aspects of life and I health care industries industry especially healthcare technology once you did it you never leave and that passion really seen the outcomes for us. I think all the last minute long term partnerships. I'm excited to be here and excited to share some of the stories with you.

Now that's really awesome, Carina. Thanks for sharing that personal note. Sounds like you enjoy the outdoors as well. And that's a, it's important to get out there and get our minds away from this hectic health care to keep our Saussure.

Absolutely.

So what got you into the medical sector to begin with?

So I like to say I was very lucky my first job out of school I was actually asked to deploy the avalanche or get assistance to needy hospitals around the globe. And believe me one great way to see the world actually be doctors and nurses and from care for horses and empath and technology have doctors make it easier for them to do their job, easier for them to care for their patients. Great to see real time and that really suffer from there all that role they never taken and kept me and really looking at how technology can enable RY technology will better evidence at this point to care better care providers and better care quality for patients. So it's really been a lifetime mission and I love the health care sector.

What a great kickoff to that career and giving back to our military. So it sounds like that left an imprint on you. And it's interesting to see how how leaders form, shape, develop. So I'm very curious Carina you've been in this field for quite some time now. Today, what would you say that one thing that needs to be at the forefront of every health care leaders agenda?

So I think the mission hasn't changed. I think the nation has continued to evolve where it's all about the right information at the right time innovations. And it's really about improving the quality of care for patients. Yet that has done so in an ecosystem today that is so challenging. You know we have massive cybersecurity threats we have all of these compliance and regulatory needs that we have to meet. And so right now at every leader's agenda is how do I make sure that my clinicians have access to the right information quickly? We get this the right access at the right level because we're trying to make sure that they can access the information they need but not over communicate information. Not once, everyone wants to see you have information.I think the key for us and accessing your security organization. I think I'm more acutely aware but I think top 3 agenda for all CIO's is have they yet evaluated the EMR vendors in place. Theay have their ring fenced, their world and really have that cyber security perimeter to protect that information. And yet how in the world do they get access to it at that point. And that's why this is.

So can you give us some examples of how your organization has created results in this space?

Sure. In the court saying that everybody is known for or known for having a product on one side and what it does is it really is that from to health care I.T. systems it allows providers to use their building badge and their pen to tap into a workstation pulls out realizes with the help of regulations doctors and nurses are tapping in 45 to 5 times a day. And so when you have to continue to access the information but yet you have to shut it down every time they walk away. Health care is a whole and so our solutions say explanations 45 minutes per use everyday.

That's huge.

Yeah we also talked about that clinical workflow and what I'll get in here is the other piece that we're seeing great surgeons on this are facing the opioid epidemic is eprescribing a controlled substance as one tool in the arsenal to start combating opioid, a prescription abuse. It's this ability for the provider to eprescribe with certainty that they are the provider. This is the right prescription and they do that biometrically or they do that with multifactor authentication and we have a great customer guide singer who literally seeing those statistics where in the first month they say it a million and a half hours solution but even better they reduce their prescribing rates. They actually have improved the patient experiences is no more likely to come in and get that prescription because these are people that really need those medications.

Right.

Its reduced to fraud. And so we're seeing how areas really help with this massive appetite.

And so at the interface of this eprescription, what exactly is it that makes it effective?

So what makes it really effective is the workflow side. Traditionally I think every listener can understand this. Imagine that you're going to your bank alive and see your bag and then all of a sudden you have to go find yourself cellphone because you saved the code and you have to go to find the code, yes then type them into your compute?

Yes.

Okay. So now imagine doing that before we prescribe cellphoe.

Yeah it's insane.

So instead the way we've architected the solution by meeting our requirements is when they're in their EMR system and they prescribe that narcotic. We have a soft token on their own and they use that multifactor to ensure that he is using a password plus token and the unique thing or are they using fingerprints. And it hasn't. You know. And so when you do that then when the right clinical workflow. We now have a hands free option. So after you say that your fingerprints, the computer wakes up your phone, it calls that code automatically. You don't have to actually go and grab it. I'd love to catch up with that token right into that prescribing Latvala prescription. And that's why is aware what the doctor has so that they know they have to follow them and get handsfree pin and now ask them for another form factor. So it's very adaptive.

That's very interesting. And it sounds like it's making a difference especially in this opioid epidemic. And as we speak about technologies like this I think it's always interesting to talk about what the road for approval for things like these are you know we're in a space that is highly regulated by the FDA but at the same time there's devices and things like that that don't have to go through that rigor. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that typical regulatory pathway for you guys is?

For us. You know we really back to we sit on that framework. So...

Okay.

Security at all of the points of digital identity and how to have that like entity trusted by the end source. So whether it be the authentication to the endpoint, the actual machine that they're logging into or the mobile device they're logging into whether it be single sign on to all the different applications to eliminate passwords and health care? There will be transacting like this controlled substance workflow. So we look at the regulations as a framework to build our technology around it and that critical workflow. So it's really less about our solutions being regulated and really more looking at the guidelines. The DEA in particular has a wonderful framework for prescribing and controlled substances and they marry that to the next standards guidelines for security. And so by leveraging those two frameworks you can build solutions that fit right into the ecosystem around the workflow. Thinking about that end user.

Fascinating and folks password fatigue is real and the solutions that Carina is talking to us about. At Imprivata they're really taking it a step further and going to where the puck is going with the way that they do these identity verifications. And I love the approach that you guys have taken here. If the listeners wanted to learn more about your company or the solutions that you provide, what would be the site or place that they should visit?

Oh sure yeah they can visit us imprivata.com a lot of great video clips, library testimonials, a lot of great customer stories so great place to go for information. We have a great YouTube channel. So lots of different ways.

Nice. Awesome. There you have folks imprivata.com. Check them out. Also put a link there in the podcast show notes so that you could go to this episode and check that out. So Carina, can you share with us a time when you had a setback something that you learned so much from that you always do today?

Sure yeah. Just wanted to think about. For me it really comes down to connecting with employees and really aligned, aligning myself to their growth and aligning them to the mission. So one of the things I learned from was I was surprised that three years ago one of my direct reports abruptly quit and it really came as a shock and I kind of...

Yeah.

I listened to the reason and I couldn't believe I miss it and that it was positive reason why he was leaving, he was planning on taking another step and do a start-up again and having some fun. When I missed for those signals? And so what its made me do is really then reconnect with employees at a different level. The first thing I always try to do is understand, what are their career goals? What excites about their job? How are they contributing to the mission and always tying their jobs to the broader vision? And the exciting part of that story was you know a year and a half is this person's journey. They actually wound up coming back to the company...

Oh really.

I found out that they were in love with their travel and the startup wasn't exactly what they wanted to be in. So back to now understanding where they want to go I was able to kind of reconnect with them and say hey there is no bridge burned but you said you're so wonderful and you break through this we'd love to have you back. And so it was really wonderful to see him rejoin your organization now be a great leader and continue to grow. And so it's how you learn from these mistakes and I think if we're not learning we're dying and...

Absolutely.

Taking the time for feedback and coaching and listening which in today's hectic schedule it's really difficult to do.

It really is Carina and that's a great call out because it's hard to stay focused on the mission, your customer focuse, you're trying to get things done. It's easy to forget your people. And I think this is such a great call out any tips that you'd recommend for people to do to stay in tune.

Yeah you know one of the things that I believe in multi layers of communication in different ways to connect with your teams. Your mighty heroes growing from 45 now over 150 and across the globe. You have to do a few things. First, you have to empower your leaders information right. Transparency is key. Second thing is you have to have a case that connects the employees and it's not just about you know the one on ones. You can't scale yourself holistically all the time.

Right.

Thinking about how do you connect? How do you share their successes? How do you communicate? And so here, we do a series across the year in person face to faces, whereabouts meetings, customer highlights,such stories we let people brag about other people's accomplishments. And that really gets people engaged in the mission because it really is reconnecting all the time. Why are you here? How does your role connect with our mission? How has your role helped you succeed long term your career objectives? So it's having that dual view of the employee that's critical.

Love that. Love that. So important. And as we look to implement positive change in health care and continue the good things that are being done there's a lot of great things happening. It's important that we engage our people I know even on the provider side. I mean you guys providers listening to this. It's tough, it's busy, it's hard to connect so a great message shared by Carina there. I would definitely hit the rewind button right down some of these ideas because it is definitely some good stuff. What would you say one of your proudest leadership experiences to date is Carina?

It's actually today it's here in Imprivata, one of the things...

Really.

We started this journey and we the, I join in 2012 and the company year was from a horizontal company to a health care company. And really doubling down on our understanding of the clinical workflow and the knowledge. I'm not sure all of our customers came with us on that journey. And so we created a mantra,"Create customers for life."And it's something that we lead not just in my organization it's lives by the entire company. It's part of the four cultural tendons that we had. So as an Imprivata employee, customers's like is the hot thing we are focused on. And with that we asked all employees to bring their passion their deep integrity and their courage of convictions to bear when they're actually delivering for our customers and deliverance solutions. And that resulted in 99% customer retention that...

Wow

Best in class. We're very proud of our partnerships. I spend a lot of my time on the road with customers listening, understanding how we can be better, consistently innovating their experience to make sure that we don't fall behind that we're always leading to that mission. And it's a two way street. We're giving and we're providing in that partnership is really exciting. And so I'm actually speaking with Jackrabbit to I think our time I see session coming up about creating...

Very cool.

Partnerships and thinking through how those frameworks are kept partnered with everybody but you can help customers be successful.

That is very inspiring Carina and customers for life. What a great focus to have and principle to run your company with. It's so easy to just go quarter per quarter or even contract to contract right. Like K.M. we're in this for another three years celebrate. And it's I think many companies are guilty of this. Customers For Life is a very inspiring message. And with 99 % retention you guys are definitely living what you preach.

It's exciting and it's an exciting journey and one that continues. I think what we're going is we're sending customers up for long term success. At the end of the day that's what it's all about right. We're all in this industry not because the technology is as sexy as not because it's the most fast moving but at the end of the day there's a patient connected to all this information is there where we want to make sure that we get all of the care and the outcomes better and lower the cost of care and we're doing it well. So we're all in the ecosystem and how do we continue to get back.

Yeah and Carina you know the other thing that's really interesting is this decision that you all made as a business to say we're going to focus strictly on health care. That right there was a move that maybe I'd like to learn a little bit more here. What went on behind that decision and that commitment because that's a big decision?

Yeah it is I think when you when when companies face these milestones we see a trend emerge if you love your business and you kind of say what's delivering the most value? Where can we continue to deliver value? Because if you're not delivering value and your delivering technology, it's short lived.

It is.

It's nice it could be sexy but it's not sustainable.

Right.

Esaw as a company was this problem occurred across all industries. Pastor refugees real everywhere security...

Yes.

However the uniqueness is the health care and the healthcare workflow really made it vertical that we could go much deeper and change the practice aligning to the current model. So imagine your merged department. You see in their hectic,they're chaotic, they have computers kind of sprinkled throughout the area, and you have this hummingbird station of people have to get in and out of records and information real time to get that information about the patients. And so we saw that was very neat was how do we facilitate that task users sweat. How do we think about changing the user from the doctor to the nurse in the record so they can charge accordingly? So with all those uniqueness is we thought that we had something differentiated and our ecosystem partners the EMR vendors, the virtualization vendors, the end point vendors. It really led us to figure out and deliver value here to get that 45 minutes back retain those providers. And that's where we saw the momentum and that value creation was the strongest was a turning point.

That is so interesting and it's a big commitment and one that really kind of the message to the listeners is listen to Carina's talk here if you're not delivering value and just technology you better take another look at it because it's short lived. So Carina tell us about an exciting project or focus that you're working on at Imprivata today.

Oh goodness. So there's so many things going on. I think the most longer term view is patient identity and this notion of digital identity across the spectrum of clinical side as well as the patient side. If you think about your own life today, we have many different forms of identification. Like we might have a driver's license and I have a passport, we have some security number. At the same time your digital ID is something very different. Some people like to lie with their Facebook account,to their LinkedIn accounts or other forms that say this is who I am. And when we think about that evolution for patients wouldn't it be amazing if I was at home I could truly validate my identity with that I could actually tell you all my entitlements. And now when you're doing it tell it help or you're checking into your care scheduling your appointment. The organization had certainty of who I was, and if you're going to share my information like any of those attributes whether it may be biometric, digital footprints, second bank tokens, that followed me along the path same for clinicians, Like when clinicians come into an organization they go through that full credentialing stage, their prevision, our user identity in the system and then from there they are given access to all these different systems. What about a provider in Massachusetts actually in Boston I could be delivering care medical center at US partners. And so now I have to redo that this identity is read from the same three different providers and truly I just want. Our vision is all about how do we create digital trust in that identity and bridge that identity across the ecosystem of followers whether it be your fingerprint your visual ID you're using password all those digital attributes and that level of security so that it's a project that we're really excited about something that's coming together today as we evolve a lot more to come a lot of players getting in these days.

Yeah it's very interesting and the promise that it holds for outcomes improvement is also huge.

Absolutely, and that's a streamlined streamlines back to it gives time...

It does.

Why should they wait three to five days to the provision of the systems when I can actually do provisioning right. Day one trust identity what your role is in our system.

Yeah I mean that's fascinating. Folks, again we have 30 minutes on these podcasts. And when you have amazing folks like Carina you just want to stay on here for a full hour. So we're getting close to the end here. Carina let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in the business of I.T. in medicine. This is the one on one of Carina. So we're going to write out a syllabus with a lightning round. It's four questions followed by a book that you recommend to the listener. You ready?

Okay, sure I'm ready.

Alright. What's the best way to improve healthcare outcomes?

Every decision be patient centered and give education to the patient in the flow of their journey.

What is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Growing technology at a problem. It's about the clinical experience clinical RY and the clinical workflow and so if you don't integrate into that, your technology solution will fail.

How do you stay relevant despite constant change?

Listen. Listening is critical. Hearing feedback, understanding the environment, seeing the ecosystem changes and adapting so you can scale and grow.

What is the one area focus that drives everything in your company?

Customers For Life.

I love that.

It's about building those partnerships and delivering solutions that meet the needs of the providers and users and their patients.

Customers for life. And what book would you recommend to the listeners Carina.

So the favorite book I can recommend that I read recently is called the Captain Class by Sam Walker really talks about the attributes of leaders and leadership by studying all of the high performing teams that are out there in professional sports.

Fascinating and it's called the Captain Class?

Yeah the Captain Class.

Wow, fascinating. Folks, you could find this lightning round syllabus along with the book. Just go to outcomesrocket.health/imprivata and you're going to find all of that there are links to the company as well as an entire transcript of my conversation here with Carina. Before we conclude Carina I'd love if you could just share a closing thought and then the best place for the listeners to get in touch with you.

Great, my closing thought for everyone listening is clearly you're all on this leadership journey. First and foremost employees matter. Connecting with them and driving them through the vision matters. And yet most importantly delivering value to customers matter. And so if you crack those two, you'll be ultimately successful, am really excited to have been part of this and listeners always connect and come with me or on LinkedIn or Twitter.

Outstanding. This has been inspirational and we really appreciate you making time for us. Thanks Carina.

This is great. Thank you so much.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas, great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is slow. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Using Music to Improve Healthcare Outcomes with Rachel Francine, Co-Founder & CEO of Musical Health Technologies

Recommended Book:

Biomimicry: Innovation Inspired by Nature

Best Way to Contact Rachel:

http://www.singfit.com/

Mentioned Link:

https://www.stria.com/

Check out this Link:

https://outcomesrocket.health/podcast

Using Music to Improve Healthcare Outcomes with Rachel Francine, Co-Founder & CEO of Musical Health Technologies

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas, great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is slow. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. Today I have the wonderful Rachel Francine. She is the co-founder and CEO of Musical Health Technologies. We've had several musical health focused companies on the podcast within the last year and Rachel comes to us with over 15 years experience building startups. Rachel has led teams and strategy for recognized leaders in technology and media including Citysearch, Ticketmaster, and Current TV. Rachel's earned her master's degree in long term strategic planning in order to build the profitable businesses that also have done immensely well. Her specialties include startup strategic planning systems Berry, transformative economics and Scifi geekdom some excited to dive into some of the things that Rachel is great at as well as some of the focus areas and initiatives that musical health technology. So Rachel welcome to the podcast.

Thank you very much for having me.

It's a pleasure. Now Rachel talk to me was there something in the intro that I left out that maybe you wanted to share?

Yeah I mean I think the one thing I would dig a little deeper into because you were very complete there is really the idea that the kind of businesses that I really want to build the organizations that they want to build are the ones that have triple or quadruple bottom line effects. You know when you say you know businesses that can sort of do good not to do well it's really the idea that we can prove that you could have a great business that does well financially that and that has immense social good, right. I think we're seeing a lot of tech companies out there that you know they're making all this money and then you're looking at them going and was that really the right decision to let them run rampant with you know a lot of different things. So I would say that's the one thing and that's really what we're trying to do here. So you can set out to have triple or quadruple bottom line impacts where you doing well for society while financially having transformative effects for people in society and other bottom line as well as do well ecologically all of that was incredibly hard at this point. That's a whole other podcast.

For sure. Now it's good to have that well-rounded focus as a company. What would you say got you into health care to begin with?

Yes so for me health care was a bit of a circuitous route. My background really is in technology and innovation. I started working on the internet in 1996 as you were saying and really sort of my path to health care came because you worked for all of these very innovative companies maybe you know I worked at Citysearch early on and to research honest to be yelp of its day and it was about your whole community. At one address and you know we covered Little League games that we covered the restaurants right. But eventually somewhere along the line we got bought by Ticketmaster and all of a sudden what we really became was about selling tickets and that was really the truth of it. And from there I went to record a lot of organizations that really claimed to want to be revolutionary and transform something or democratize something, right. And at the end of the day what it came back to was becoming an advertising platform for Coke or Pepsi. And for me that was that was a really hard pill to swallow, after a while. I really wanted just to be good. How can you use technology for good? Just so happened that I had a very crazy entrepreneurial technology sort of ahead of his time dad. Will came up with an idea for this weird thing called lyric coaching, lyric prompting that he really took from the opera which is what he studied and the idea for that as you just pop the words of song to somebody right where they need to sing them. Well lo and behold who knew that this was also a technique that music therapist and speech therapist use to do everything from help people to regain speech after a traumatic brain injury to eliminate some behaviors and improve the lives of people with dementia. And my dad stumbled across this technique and essentially just programmed my brother and I to live out his invention and to his idea. I went to technology and my brother became a therapist and...

I like that he's really programmed you guys.

Yeah. He did. He's very effective. He is really very inspirational we were working from a very young age and a lot of my dad's business is I think we were really kind of kind of programmed to be more in nature I've never really had anything else. So what we really noticed when Andy went into music therapy was this idea that music as a therapeutic medium has icredible, talk about transformative impact. Right like the ability to rewire the brains.

It's amazing.

The ability to lower your blood pressure or to increase somebodies lung capacity who has chronic obstructive pulmonary disease you the the the act of singing could do so many things. There's a real distribution problem. And what's the thing that technology can help with sort of better than anything is scaling something and distributing it on a wider basis. And so that's really where Andy and I came together even though we've both been sort of working and looking at this problem since we were teenagers and are really good at doing karaoke shows. Know in one way or another, Andy became a music therapist and started music looking at music therapy when he was about 19 and you know I started in technology when I was in my early 20's. So I think we both always looked at what we've done to sort of the lens of Dad's invention and really found out how powerful it could be and decided it was time, was time.

Well the time has arrived. And you guys are doing some very cool things. What would you say is a hot topic that needs to be on the agenda of health care leaders today?

Yes so to me it's sort of the places where pharmaceuticals have maybe not lived up to their best potential. I think that you know we've put a lot of faith into pharmaceuticals to be able to solve a lot of problems. And the fact of the matter is in many places they do great. And in other places not only don't they do great not only are they able to solve the problems but they cause a lot more problems than they solve sometimes and that's evidenced by the opioid crisis as evidenced by there was just another study on sort of how many know sort of Aus diagnosis, anti psychotic medications, dementia patients get, right. So the only tool in the toolbox and of course now totally coming from my own point of view and they're. But the only tool. One of the only tools in the tool box for a lot of health care professionals out there pills and it's not always the way to go. So I think to me I would say sort of yes yes think that you know Guy Kawasaki has Apple's evangelist you always said you know joke is how do you know. How do you know an entrepreneur is pitching? And they answer questions their lips are moving. So the idea is that you know even though I am advocating for sync that this idea that we should be looking at not pharmacological interventions I don't think syncing that is the only logical intentional intervention out there I think in general the health care industry should be that way.

Now there's a lot of different options. You're right. Music is one of them. Digital therapeutics. Right. Right. So for sure there's always a different way and I think it's important for us to visit those ways. So Rachel can you share with the listeners how you and your organization are currently doing that maybe some stories where you you've improved outcomes or improve the process flow?

Yes so basically part of the challenge with music is medicine as we were alluding to earlier is there's a scale problem. So there's only 7,000 music therapist in the country as opposed to 185 as an occupational therapists. So our goal as a company really is to figure out how do we distribute this in a way that works really well and so what we did first was created a product for the senior living industry. And if you wanted to. So within the senior living industry new activities department might have let's say two to four hundred dollars a month to spend on programming for the people who live in that community. So that means if you wanted to have a music therapist come in and actually do music as medicine you could maybe get them in there twice a month right maybe three times and then you know there's there's a study out in England where basically said that basically did Emet a study that said what works for dementia and the results that came back was basically that great but only 5% of organizations are actually using care homes are actually using music effectively to care for people with dementia. So we know we need to get it into these places. So what we were able to do is say okay look we can take our technology which is our lyric our technology platform which consists of our lyric coaching technology which feeds the words of a song to somebody right before they need to sing them. So there's no memory involved there's no reading involved everybody could just instantaneously take part. Right. And bam we created music service design protocols that a 15-dollar an hour 20-dollar an hour activities director and a senior living community they can in this one very specific instance be able to deliver the same kind of therapeutic musical experience that a therapist would be able to deliver. Now that music therapist could deliver a lot of other kinds of interventions as well. But in this one case they're able to deliver because we also give training to those activities directors. So they get three hours of online training so we use technology essentially to be able to enable more people to use music as medicine and bring it to a greater number of people.

Yeah you know that's really interesting that I don't know a number of music therapist was so limited just kind of thinking through some of the things that you have done. Have you seen or heard any of the results of some of the programs you've run?

Sure. So essentially we're at over 400 senior living communities around the country and we've trained over 16 hundred people and we've done four different studies with four of our clients. And so generally we see something like a 42-82% elevation in mood, pre and post session this is both with people who had dementia as well as people who don't have dementia. We also see specifically for people with dementia and reduction in agitation and wandering these are things that in the dementia realm are called Behaviors. So that is things that are the outside world sees as negative. But we see that people we get comments back people who never, never focus or completely chance vexed by saying that people who have repetitive kind of motion right those disappear we're seeing that and a lot of speech returning right people who don't normally speak well saying and sometimes that even carries over into increase speech after the sessions and then at one of our clients adopt a program here in California they did a study that essentially said that they found when they looked at a group of participants that they were able to reduce their as needed anti-anxiety meds by 40% by doing the same fit sessions. And these are people...

Amazing.

It's a bet a lot of people there are veterans. So these are people with a lot of post-traumatic stress. Well yes a week and we get them a lot of amazing amazing feedback and it's a really nice part of being in hospital care actually when you've that's the kind of feedback you get. You know as somebody who is talking you know who never talked to any of the staff is ever you know sort of converse with anybody as now walking down the hall and asking the accession.

That's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. And the results are phenomenal. So singfit is the program. Is this a sort of game or is it a guided exercise?

Yes so Singfit Prime which is the product that we have on the market right now. This is very specifically for people who live in long term care so either in memory care or assisted living maybe in adult day programs. And this is really what's really are proof statement this product where it's not really game by just actually a group session. It's led by an individual so an activities director maybe a social partner. They get trained and they essentially are given a script 12 scripts, a quarter and these scripts take the participants on a journey that involves songs. So maybe it's a trip through your brain. And each one of them is pretty Clementine's you have a different thing of trivia and there's reminiscence and there's movement in all of this is baked in by our music therapist in order to have the maximum therapeutic impact. Think that one of the things that people don't really realize about what we do is that we sort of we kind of think of ourselves as like a duck on a pond right, where on the top of it what it looks like is people are saying and having fun. And underneath that there's all this spurious where it's going on in actual therapeutic activity right so that where we're taking in songs for its air movements for example that cross the line of the body that can just look like you're doing a rocket's kick and that can seem very nice but the fact of the matter is from a neurological perspective when you cross the midline of the body with a movement you are then exercising both hemispheres of the brain right. And this is why it's able to live once they get that elevation once they know once that stuff is sort of kicking in because of the singing. These are why you get these lasting effects because we're really building in really a therapeutic program underneath what seems like a sing-a-long.

That's super cool. Now if the listeners are wondering where can we get this? How do we find out more? Where we are and they go?

So go singfit.com, you can do that.

How do you spell it?

So it's singfit.com or I would recommend that you Google singfit on YouTube. We have a lot of videos up there of people actually using a product and getting benefit out of it.

Awesome so singfit.com folks. Check that out and think about it. I mean it just is pretty phenomenal what this group is doing how they're putting it together and how easy they're making it for you to access this type of therapeutic for your population. So you're managing and an elderly home or wherever it may be you may want to be thinking about this for your population because it's definitely a good option. So tell us a little bit about you know you guys have been working on this for awhile right. You and your brother started this. You said your dad your dad programmed you for it and now here you are. Now as the process has gone forward Rachel, what would you say a setback that you've had that you learned the most from you want to share with the listeners?

I think the fact that I learned the most from is really around billing and the health care industry. Yeah right. Is is that when we picked dementia to start with because you know it's difficult to get by the way. Yes. So we could have gone with a lot of stuff right. And we did venture for a bunch of reasons. One was that in 120 years. No pharmaceutical solution for dementia. Yeah. So you know Namenda onset they maybe delay the onset but everything else is given for dimentia wasn't really created to treat or cure dementia. Right now nothing's really work and so we knew that there was a lack of solutions on the market and we knew that singing was actually accepted more as a therapeutic tool in senior living communities and for people working those of dementia because they see that it's the only thing that really works. So we knew that there would be an, to some level of an acceptance of the product or our hypothesis was in somewhere where they see it working every day rather than trying to break down the walls of say the hospital systems. And we wanted to start in a business to business fashion for a variety of reasons that we go into but that's what we decided to start. But the thing that I didn't know about dementia when we chose it so we knew we could create a great product for it. We knew that there was a need. We went out we talked to some people in the market we asked them what kind of solutions they were looking for. We knew we could and we knew because music therapist had been doing this for decades in senior living communities that we could really, really be successful with the product. But what we didn't know is that dementia is not reimbursable by Medicare for the most part. And so I think the sort of distribution that right of working in health care and pretty much all business dystopic that you know going in and really realizing how financially driven everything is especially in the U.S. and that we know you've really got to be able to prove that you can make a dollar, save a dollar you have to be able to show where that reimbursement is coming from. And with dementia that is formidably difficult. So our next product focus on other areas and one of the big things that we take into consideration is where's the money coming from. You know what's reimbursable? It's not reimbursable. How is that thing reimbursed? I think a lot of us come into a lot of technology people like me come into to health care and and we don't necessarily you know realize that oh the other thing of course is the length of the sales cycle. I didn't have that...

They're long.

They're long, right. So healthcare is long and senior care is longer. So you know I think those would be the two things is is really understanding especially if you're coming in from outside of healthcare as I was that you know coming from a more sort of consumer technology-driven place that the sales cycles are going to be longer and there's going to be different kinds of challenges around reimbursement and who's paying and especially in this changing healthcare environment.

Yeah such a great insight that you're offering up here Rachel and you know as a lot of businesses do get into healthcare from a technology standpoint reimbursement is definitely one that has to be at the forefront and a lot of people run into this right. Great ideas and then they're confronted with the reality of the health care system. The beautiful thing is that you stayed with it. You're offering your solution you've tailored it in such a way that created a business model for your triple or quadruple aim. And now your taking your learnings and refocusing on a new area of care which I think is so interesting. So kudos to you and your brother and your team for having the tenacity and the staying power because that's really what it's going to take to create that company that's going to light it up.

Well thank you. I agree I think you know one day I was we're hiring somebody and I looked up you know what makes the best attributes for a startup employee and like the number one thing was greet. Right. It was to play greet. The ability just to make it up because you can have a great idea a lot of people have great ideas but you're 100% right I think and especially in the health care realm where you can take a really long time but it's worth it. I've never gotten the kinds of notes from customers and from people using the product that you know it's different when you're helping to build cities guides and then when you're helping someone you know mother with dementia you get different totally...

That's rewarding. Now thanks for sharing that. You know I think though listeners it could resonate with a lot of them. I mean we've to this point we've interviewed over 300 leaders this past year and Rachel you know you're not alone in this. Everybody's learning and as we build this communal knowledge of what we can reimburse and what we can't and we just become stronger and we keep building so keep at what you're doing it's definitely making a difference.

Oh thank you so much I really appreciate it Saul.

Absolutely. Now tell us about an exciting project or focus that you're working on today Rachel.

Oh my. There are so many. there's so many that PR departments from other companies are sitting on that I can't share. So we've signed a deal with a top five senior living provider which means that we're now in 42 states across the country so that's really exciting. Abbas signed a deal with a pretty legendary singer songwriter to actually use and master tracks which I think is just sort of a fun sort of thing that we're sitting on there is that is pretty cool actually. Yeah yeah. And it's and it's somebody who's quite respected. And we're waiting for that record company to let us make the announcement. His people have already let us do that. But it's it's a real validation from the music community of what we're doing. So that's really exciting. And then we also there's an article in Stria news online publication stria.com that is covering what's covering that industry and sort of gave a peek into the fact that we entered into a relationship with AARP. So that is exciting for a company in the senior space to be talking to AARP about a lot of the projects that we are working towards a larger relationship and then also we are launching a new product which is called singfit studio and that product. It's really the platform. So singfit prime which is the product that we are doing for dementia which is this group product that's been going great and we continue to sell that because the product is really going to be sort of the backbone of our future and really in all different kinds of health care professionals the ability teeth it has let us in with a variety of clients who have a variety of conditions and comorbidities which is going to probably be a big focus of ours.

I think that's awesome. Congrats. Some amazing stuff actually on the bike. Here's my excited for you guys and definitely looking forward to keeping in touch as we get to the end here Rachel we're going to do a little syllabus. We build it out every episode.

Okay.

Is the episode on how to be awesome and health care with Rachel. And so I'm going to ask you four questions lightning round style followed by your favorite book. You ready?

Ok yes.

All right. What's the best way to improve health care outcomes?

Focus on the patient.

What is the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Assuming you know everything.

How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?s

Scenario planning.

What is one area of focus that drives everything in your organization?

Therapeutic benefit to the clients.

What book would you recommend to the listeners.

I was just talking about Biomimicry and Design to somebody so I would think about that. It's just a different way to think about creating products and this particular way is by studying natural phenomenon and so might not apply directly to everybody's product but it's a really interesting read.

I love that great recommendation. It's all about changing that mindset. I had a guest actually today earlier today. She she recommended poetry. She likes to read poetry because it really takes a look at language and the way that you phrase things. Poetry is made to surprise into use different elements of poetry and so your example kind of parlays really nicely with hers and that just look for different ways to change the frame. You know the other example too Rachel and listeners is is I had a guest that said I make it a point for myself and my team to go to a conference that's completely unrelated to health care like they'll go to plumbing conferences or like something totally different. A food conference and they'll find insights that are just amazing. So love your example Biomimicry is now on my list. Thank you for the recommendation.

Yes of course. I always love to recommend good book.

Hey so Rachel before we conclude, I love if you could just share a closing thought and then the best place where the listeners could lock you up or follow you.

Oh I guess my closing thought is in addition to my technology background I studied future studies as strategic planning and in future studies were sometimes talked about the probable possible, and preferable future.The probable future is the future where everybody kind of assumes it's going to happen. So in the 1950s people always assumed computers would be as big as around but all over the world you know all these possible features are being born. Whether it's the technology or social change or whatever it is. And that's what a lot of futurists do is help the game play what that's going to be for big organizations. My interest in teacher studies has always been about the preferable future and it's looking at these possible futures and saying what do we really want. And it's surprising how once you get the that's what most people really want the same things. We're just talking about it in different ways and the like clothing that is I think we should all build companies that create preferable futures and really think about what we want this for for our futures to be and that's what I try to make our company an example of a good preferable future when they walk into the doctor that the you know prescription he gives you or her something that's going on like cars all the side effects for something that's also going to bring you joy and delight. And all these other positive things.

Fascinating love that frame. It's just you know probable, preferrable, oh no probable...

Probable possible, and preferable.

Love that. Probable possible and preferable. Think of it in terms of that listeners. That's a great message from Rachel. And Rachel what would be the best place for listeners to get in touch or follow you?

So they can follow us I'm pretty much everywhere. We are singfit.com I don't really you know I started writing blogs in 1996 before there were really blogs and I don't really get around to reading aloud much more anymore. But we do have a lot on the side. So when I look at some stuff written by me about what's going on they could see it there and understand things that are awesome and listeners you could find the so singfit.com and you can also find the show notes to this episode at outcomesrocket.health/singfit. Rachel this has been fun. Thank you for enlightening us with these really neat things that you're up to and we're excited to stay in touch with you.

As well and thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas, great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is slow. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Designing Better Gene Therapies for Human Health with Liz Parrish, CEO at BioViva Sciences USA Inc.

Designing Better Gene Therapies for Human Health with Liz Parrish, CEO at BioViva Sciences USA Inc.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. Today I have Liz Parrish, the founder and CEO of BioViva Sciences USA. At BioViva, they're committed to extending healthy lifespans using gene therapy. Liz is a humanitarian entrepreneur, innovator and very dedicated to this space and it's a pleasure to have her on the podcast today. Liz, welcome.

Hey thanks. It's great to be here Saul. I'm really excited about this podcast.

Hey me too. And by the way thanks so much. I know you just got back from travel and so really appreciate you carving us into your busy schedule.

I'm sure well it's a pleasure. And if you can just bear with my slow moving mind my jetlag mind, we'll have a great conversation.

Hey well maybe it's a good opportunity for us to actually stay on pace with you because you definitely are a mover and shaker so did I miss anything in that intro that maybe you wanted to highlight for the listeners?

Oh no I think that that's fine. I think that I'm just the woman who wants to genetically engineer you and I guess you probably want to find out why.

We do. So folks we're going to be chatting about this topic - genetic engineering and so you're going to find this very very fascinating. Before we dig into those things, I did want to ask you Liz what got you into the medical sector to begin with?

Well you know from 2011 to 2013 I volunteered for a group that was trying to do education in the area of stem cells some stem cells had vastly lost their funding in the U.S. due to the Bush administration pulling funding because of embryonic stem cells. Then suddenly everyone thought that the work of stem cells was embryonic stem cells and didn't realize that most of the work as a stem cells meaning stem cells from your own body. And it gave me a great opportunity to see what was happening in this realm of regenerative medicine. You know the first real regenerative medicine that we could look at that was having some impact on human bodies in research in universities in the U.S. but also there were a lot of companies offshore the U.S. medical tourism type groups who are claiming to have really good effects. And so we were trying to sort out what would you need to actually build a database to show whether or not the offshore world was was working in humans. But in 2013 right when we were getting this project going I actually left the project because my son was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes. And essentially our family became a client of the U.S. healthcare system and I was actually really disappointed with what I saw. I was happy with some things but I was really unhappy with other things and that was that things called experimental medicine were not used in humans that were dying. So I asked you know them if the healthcare workers and doctors at Children's Hospital if my son could have his pancreas biobank or if he could get stem cell injections and they said that's experimental medicine we don't do that. You should look around the hospital kids who are dying and your son has a manageable disease so be happy about that. Well I just couldn't be happy about that, I couldn't be happy that we let people die. When I was reading and research there was all this fantastic innovations. So I stepped out of the nonprofit and I stepped into business and trying to find cures for kids. I ran into what was headlong the direction I was going for anyway which was genetics and genetic cures and started looking at an aging population as a great testing zone for kids who were dying. Let's do this the most humane way we have over 100,000 people who die every day of aging diseases. Many of these diseases are similar to what's happening at the cellular level of childhood disease some of the childhood diseases. So why didn't we embark on the first big engineering program using terminally ill patients to step up and take advantage of a situation of experimental medicine and try to spearhead the future for humanity including themselves. And so that's kind of how it got started.

Yeah you know it's a great story and appreciate you sharing it Liz. Tough road to be faced with that a lot of Americans and a lot of people across the world are really faced with as well. So it's wonderful that you decided to take on the driver's seat of this. So it's taking you on a journey and you've you've made some progress. I'm really excited to jump into some of that progress through our discussion today. What would you say is a hot topic that you feel needs to be an every medical leaders agenda today and how are you and the BioViva team addressing it?

Well you know again it's genetics and gene therapy and I think that it what needs to be on the very forefront of everyone's mindset is translating this technology. In the 1970s you know we had some of our biggest advances in looking at genetics and since then of course we've taken that and we fine tuned it into drugs that actually work. So if you look at what's going on in gene therapy today one monogenic disease after a time has being knocked off the chart. A monogenic disease means there is one faulty gene and by just inserting a proper copy of that gene we have a healthy functioning people and for right now we think that these therapies might be a one treatment for a lifetime. We may find out different in 20 years but kids with boy in the bubble disease which is severe combined immunodeficiency sched are becoming cured today with one treatment can step out into the world and start to enjoy things. Haemophilia is becoming a disease of the past as well sickle cell anemia. There are several congenital blindness these are areas where we now are developing drugs that are one treatment maybe for a lifetime for patients so we need to look at the power of that technology and start to look at what's called complex disease so aging as a disease for instance. There's nine or 10 hallmarks of aging that happen as we age over time and if we can tackle those then we will die of the diseases like Alzheimer's, cancer and heart disease. That would be fantastic. Each one of those diseases is a trillion dollar sinks every year. So it's pretty important that we tackle those. We can also then tackle childhood disease in a very humane way with drugs that we know how they work by testing them and in other subjects and so I think that the translation of this medicine now that we know how powerful it is is the most important step forward at this point.

Yeah a really strong message and a clear pathway forward to get some of the solutions to patients. What would you say an example of what BioViva has done it to create better results better outcomes is?

We have now built a platform so it took us a couple of years. Sadly it was a winding road to realisation what we actually needed to do and what we needed to do is what the company was designed to do three years ago. So what we need to do is analyze patient data. What happens in patients when they take these therapeutics and actually do it in a wide panel not do the traditional regulatory route to approval type of data dynamics where you might hide a bunch of data and only seek for one endpoint does it affect this disease does it affect this disease. We need to look at multiple mortality rates and we need to look at a panel of biomarkers and data points and in genetics that actually points to whether these patients are getting healthier and where they're seeing improvements in their body and whether or not the company would like to of course build towards the ultimate combinatorial gene therapy. The multitude of genes that it will take to create a very homeostatic state for a human body where the body just stays in health for a long period of time and in order to do this we need to look at a multitude of genes. So what we've done is we've turned BioViva into a data analysis company where we just look at not as endpoints but we look at a bunch of data points of what happens when patients go offshore and take unregulated or regulated gene therapies. So we have a partner company it's called integrated health systems and they actually broker deals between patients and medical doctors who basically have no other choice. Maybe they are terminally ill and they've been sent home with no other option. And this gives them an opportunity to take part in studies that will expedite the use of therapeutics and how that's important is this isn't just a money endeavour. Actually everything is kept at the lowest cost possible. This is a multipronged approach you might think of it as a triangle. On one hand the patient the patient is an important part of the triangle it's one end of it. It gives them an option to try things when the medical system is given up and said we don't have anything else for you and you're going to hospice. The second area is the biotech company. We have a lot of really promising biotech companies out there that end up disappearing because they can't become profitable. There's no way to raise the amount of money they need and or they're bought out by big companies who may or may not choose to take their drug to the pivotal point of becoming a therapeutic. And the third area the last area is investors. If you look at drug discovery it's actually pretty surprising that anyone puts their money and investment into it any more it has a 94 percent failure rate and get through one of these regulatory areas could cost over a billion dollars. So when you're looking at an investor who wants to put in maybe a hundred million or half a million dollars. Their failure rate is massively designed against them. So if we can actually look at drugs before they hit the clinical trial path and we can show whether they work or not and where they work OK we could actually give investors the inside scoop on where to invest and what drugs to expedite for what case scenarios. So if I had a drug that looked really promising today and let's just say I went to the graveyard of where most drugs go to die which is Alzheimer's and I ran the drug I raised a billion dollars to run the drug and in patients their regulatory service but it failed because it only helped Alzheimer's patients mentally. What if it regenerated their kidneys. These are the kind of things that we need to know because we're looking at genes now that aren't just maybe supposed in certain disease states but that are actually running for regeneration in the human body. So that's one of the shifts in looking at diseases not just saying oh this gene is implicated. Well that's fine that gene is implicated there's a lot of genes implicated in disease but what genes actually drive regeneration and that's the paradigm shift that we're doing is we're looking at genes that prolong the life in animal models regenerate cells actually start to recoup the damage or actually maybe reverse the damage that's caused by aging and so when you start looking at that you're looking at drugs that have a multi-purpose down the road maybe will affect a multitude of multiple mortality sort of outcomes.

Yeah that's a really interesting perspective Liz. As these drugs fail billions of dollars out the window you said 93 percent failure rate. Why not take a look at the periphery of these intended results and see what regenerative traits can be found because there's a lot of things that could be potentially used to your point.

Yes. You know if you run a drug for one endpoint your likelihood of failing even if it's a really good drug becomes even more. So if we look at if we shift the paradigm to looking at genes.

Interesting

that actually concrete regeneration rather than maybe just beta amyloid plaques or some random downstream effect of a disease then you know our our likelihood of success is bigger. But then if we look at a bigger panel regeneration of the body then we start to roll into a bigger amount of success. And so it's just building from one success to another and getting better drugs through the regulatory service which they still need to go through. Regulations we're not trying to say that we shouldn't have regulated drugs we just patients who are in great need should have access to most anything that shows a benefit.

Yeah it's really great. Now you guys have you know you made a shift, you commented earlier that you shifted things over at the company to tap into the strengths and the core of what you guys were dedicated to. Can you share with the listeners a time when you had a setback and what you learned from that setback? I feel like in healthcare we all have them and we learn most from those setbacks. Can you share one of those?

Oh sure well I think that we've had a real winding road. We've had a multitude of setbacks and one of them is what created the paradigm shift that we did where we decided to look just at the data of patients rather than try to keep moving forward to talk to them. Government after government and try to figure out how to treat patients are self were a US company and we couldn't actually find a a promising legal route to treat patients ourselves and so there was a lot of time probably wasted in discussions and in trying to find loopholes to help patients which is seems absolutely absurd to even say that in really difficult to do that so our shift came when we realised that we actually needed partnerships that were not US companies that could help facilitate patients getting access to the technology and then us you know shifting gears to not directly treating patients but just analyzing the data and of course we hope to analyze the data of a multitude of offshore companies that are doing. We're basically focusing on our exclusive partners right now because when you're in business you have to look at where is the area of greatest need. I mean when you can just pick a company where you can just make a lot of money but I'm a humanitarian and I go for a really high risk high outcome projects you know project will affect the whole world. There are a lot harder to get to the end point. But if you're really blazing new territory and so in that blazing new territory you find that actually you have to do some traditional things and then you have to just shut off and stop listening to some of the areas some of the myths that we live by and those myths could be the things that people tell you that you can't do that be certain regulatory hurdles and things like that if you do things right I think that you can do a lot of things and when you do run into a wall like we did then you just have to be ready to pivot. You just can't give up. You've got to be ready to pivot and find your partnerships that can help you achieve what you need to do and I think that's what we did.

I think that's really great and courageous to the point of assumptions. Gosh you know one of my favorite sayings is "Assumptions - it's a s s you and me". It can make an ass out of you and me and it's so true right if we don't question these, we really won't be able to make those leaps that we're looking to make to improve outcomes.

Yeah and we really have to help society get over that. So what is a regulated drug. You know so if you look at the cocaine report and you look at the number of the treat the number the harm we actually have a lot of harmful drugs out there that people don't even question that they take that we have to kind of open the mindset and open the eyes to people not scare anybody but actually show them that there are other ways to develop therapeutics and get them to the regulatory system in an expedited route that will actually help millions of people much faster by using them sooner than some people would think that we should. And it's the whole mindset. It's the whole bioethics debate which is filled with unethical ideas that are drugs should be safe before it's used in humans and yet we have no safe drugs. We're all part of an experiment. People die every year taking their drugs as prescribed and we have to get over the mindset that we should just let people die rather than giving them access to experimental medicine. I mean it's such folly, it's such folly. And they're losing their biggest asset and we just should not let that happen. And so we have to be less risk adverse.

What would you say one of your proudest leadership moments in healthcare has been to date?

Oh I don't really celebrate that much I don't think we have that much to celebrate. I am a really much into the grinding of work sort of person but I guess if we had something that. If we had something that we did that I think had leadership that of course was bastardise in much of the media. It was that in 2015 we embarked on the first gene therapy against biological aging and complex disease. That was a big moment for us. I took I myself bleeding the company as the CEO thought it was the most ethical that I would take the combinatorial gene therapy and it was a telomerase inducer and myostatin inhibitor. So for the audience the telomerase inducer increases the length of the telomeres at the ends of the chromosomes which we think protecting the chromosome is one of our best bet of keeping people healthier longer. So as your cells divide as you get older those that telomeres are the ends of chromosomes get shorter and shorter and they get really damaged and we think that by keeping them long and keeps the cell youthful and that's been shown in research for over 10 years the other one was a myostatin inhibitor which pumps up your muscle mass. So it's considered a performance drug but it's actually a great therapeutic for an ageing population to increase their muscle mass and keep them active longer period of time running stairs keeping them from falling. And so we embarked on that in 2015 and I actually you know two days ago I'm proud to say I just got another telomere results back and my telomeres are a little bit longer. And that's great.

So you took it once?

Yeah you take it once we saw muscle increase in the muscles that were treated. We've seen telomere length increase, we've seen a reduction in C reactive proteins and for the basic listener those are a marker of inflammation and so might inflammation markers went way down my insulin sensitivity went way down which is great because that's something that gets worse as you age and makes it more likely that you'll get things like type 2 diabetes which we call metabolic disorder. So I think it was a time that we really took the lead and we said we want to be a company that gets behind the drugs that we want to have people take and we want to prove that they're safe and we're willing to take them ourselves. And that was great.

That sends a strong message.

Yeah. So we learned a lot from it. We had just enough money of investment at the time for to take one therapeutic and we did do preliminary blood work. We did do preliminary MRIs, we did do a preliminary telomere length testing that we didn't have the largest panel of biomarkers at the time because we were a very young company and we didn't really have the finances to do it but we followed it up and now we're we're hoping that now patients won't want to partake in those so we can actually get a better understanding how they work over a larger group of people.

Fascinating and very interesting to hear that even now telomeres are a little bit longer and muscle productions is happening. So tell us a little bit about an exciting project or focus that you guys are working on today?

Well the focus is is to to run the data of what happens with patients when they take off shore therapy. Our partners there are lucky because they're getting to actually design protocols and offer therapeutics to patients who are in need. Now and one of the exciting projects that they'll be offering and we can't wait to look at the data. It's a Lotos gene therapy. So keeping it in the safest parameters is possible but it creates a cost effective potential treatment for Alzheimer's. So as using the telomerase inducer and it is actually a therapy that's under 70000 which is that the area of gene therapy is a mass that's a massive deal. That's a really you know it's just a study and it's trying to get I think 10 patients through to do that. They're also looking at bringing in a gene therapy for chronic kidney disease. It also will be about in that price range which again compared to gene therapies that are coming through translation through the regulatory services is a market change and therapeutic cost. They are also offering of course the anti aging gene therapies but they're pretty cost prohibitive and they're similar to the one that I took. So there are relatively expensive but you know people who are..

How much are those?

Those are around a million dollars. There really a lot of gene therapy and most of the price honestly that this company offers to patients is just running the gene therapy so you can imagine if you're running a gene therapy for humans through a U.S. manufacturer that's going to be almost if you're you know you're looking at high doses of gene therapy almost all of that is the cost of building the gene therapy. Then our doctors take a little bit amount of money we take a little bit to run the data just to stay in business and that idea is to find the therapies that work. And you know just so people getting about this for the future. The more patients that you run through the cheaper the cost. So like you say well how we treat a whole world of speech therapy costs you know a million dollars just to make it for a large large dose therapy. When you make it for 1000 people it doesn't cost that much. Then you know the costs are in the tens of thousands and if you made it for a million people it's going to even go down from there as manufacturing capacity of these manufacturers actually up boost up eventually becomes as cheap as an immunisation and that's what we're hoping for the world is low cost therapeutics that have huge impact on health.

Well I'm of the belief that much like anything else whether it be goods and services health care is also a good and a service. And so when looking at options I mean you know I had I had a friend Liz that actually recently about a year ago passed away. He had cancer. Couldn't find a way to treat it. Went to the best medical care he could get. He even started considering out of country solutions. And I think when it comes to our health I think we have to keep an open mind and consider out of the box and out of the country solutions. So Liz, really appreciate just sort of setting the stage for that with these gene therapies.

Thank you. You know we have to really come to the mindset that this is pioneering new technology so now more people who will spend 100 - 200 thousand, three hundred thousand dollars to get an opportunity to fly up into space well you know being part of gene therapy and pioneering new technology it's an opportunity it's more than just taking a therapy to try to treat a disease you're pioneering the future of technology. You're actually making a better world for other people and you're having inexperience and right now the outcomes for how many people have taken gene therapy now we can't say it's 100 percent safe but it's looking actually really good. So we're hoping that people will want to be part of pioneering that technology and unfortunately it does cost to participate in it. But what an experience to be a part of.

Like you said especially if you're on the dark side of it terminal illnesses when you don't have any options and you're willing to consider more things and a pioneering thing is a great analogy Liz I've got this picture of the solar system on my wall here. I'm just going at it I'm like yeah.

Perspective.

It is perspective.

I love it when I try to lock up every night and give thanks for what this universe has brought. And I just it's so humbling. And we're lucky to be part of it. And so we really should create big human value. You know what what are we going to bring to other people I don't think it's enough to sit here and make carbon dioxide. I think that we should be part of a much bigger...

I totally agree. Better way to put it. Just you could do a little bit more than make carbon dioxide alright people. Getting into the end here Liz, let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course and what it takes to be successful in the business of medicine gene therapy. The ABCs of Liz Parrish. I've got four questions for you lightning round style, followed byyour book recommendation for the listeners. You ready?

Okay.

What's the best way to improve health care outcomes?

All I would say faster translation to the right patients. So you know we need to work on precision based medicine and disease typing for patient outcomes and tackling these things genomically whenever we can.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfalls to avoid?

Risk aversion. I think that that is the easiest thing to do. I think that probably that might come into one of my favorite books, The Doom fear is the mind killer and it will absolutely limit us as human species.

Love that. How do you stay relevant despite constant change?

Well I think we're on the tip of a change but I think keeping on top of research and digging for all research that showed relevance and making sure that that research doesn't go unfound.

What's an area of focus should drive everything in a healthcare organization?

Well I mean healthy people. So what should drive everything isn't money if you're if you're meeting and eating, you're creating healthier people money will come. So I think that making people healthy longer, focusing on aging and disease and the catastrophes they cause around us and actually trying to minimize that is probably the best thing.

Great one. Well you mentioned The dune any other books you'd like to recommenders from when you're sticking with.

I think that picking your favorite book is like picking your favorite color and I think I might be too old to do that. So going through my head all of these things because you you've said that now twice and and I've been like oh my gosh. And so I think that some of my favorite books recently. So my all time favorites for adventure is Lord of the Rings and Dune I think they're fantastic. For sci-fi, it's definitely anything Philip K. Dick but as far as relevant into the areas that were working and books that are good for anyone they're not too in-depth. I would say in the last few years probably Homo sapiens and homo deus by Yuval Noah Harari. And we're good. The Red Queen which is sex and evolution of human nature by Matt Ridley was really good. The Sports Gene don't pass this one up it's the Sports Gene Inside the Science of Extraordinary Athletic Performance and I'm trying to remember these off the top my head so I get them wrong. And that's why I think it's Ebstein that was really good. It shows you how certain people have an advantage and we all want to have that advantage. We need to look at gene therapy and then there was one called the gene by Siddartha can't remember his last name started with an M REALLY fantastic. Recently I read what is life by profs I think is the name of the author and it is a really neat look at how we define what life is and it might surprise you might a mania was a one from a woman named Catherine Price. And it shows you how we look at food how we look at the engineering of vitamins in our food and how we might actually be hurting people in other countries because we have overnutrition. We may be over using these vitamins which comes at a detriment and we might be limiting other cultures from getting their hands on them just because we're getting a negative output from the over use of them here so how our mindset affects people in a long distance and then for the academics. Anyone going into science how to read a paper it's from a woman named Trish. It's green something real I can't remember that I read a paper. It's like the basics of evidence based medicine and it will help even an average person get through how to read a paper or a research paper what things that you really should look at to make sure that what you're reading is accurate so that you have a better understanding of how successful it actually was. And I would say that that's really really important in the day and age where you know cancer has been cured a hundred times in mice but never you know not once in humans.

Fascinating. There you have it folks list from Liz Parrish.

Can go right on and on and on.

Wait do you like to read?

I love to read. I love listen to books because unfortunately my eyesight is not as good as it used to be and now I have to wear a trifle also. Yeah my gene therapy did not fix my eyes. There are a lot of gene therapies that are coming through the pipeline for congenital blindness, macular degeneration both wet and dry and things like that and I'm really looking forward to those because we will need those for the future of living long lives. Right now I've gotten to the point where I really love to listen to a book rather than where my trife goes and try to figure out what part of the glasses to look through to read the book.

Yeah I'm right there with you two audio books are definitely my favorite first choice and then print if it's not available. There's also a service called Blinkist, I've mentioned before before really fully committing to a book Blinkist sort of gives you their blinks. They call them blinks the little chap. Mini chapters on what it's about to give you the gist. Get your little resource there Liz this has been a blast. Folks by the way if you want to find the list of books that Liz shared with us as well as a transcript of our discussion today, go to outcomesrocket.health/bioviva. You'll find everything there and an opportunity to replay the episode. There you could do that on iTunes, google, any podcast platform really. Liz this has been a blast. I love if you could just share a closing thought before we conclude and then the best place for the listeners to get in touch and reach out with you.

Well. Oh we'll I would just like the listeners to be really excited about the future. I'd like them to be really open minded about the future. I'd like them to sort of lay down their fears and concepts of what the future might look like and realize that you know together we've proven over and over again that humans can create technology and really use it for the good of the world and that we can together create that and they should be excited about maybe the future of their own human body. And think about the things that the assets and the benefits and the performance that they would like to have their body have in the future whether be smarter, stronger, faster. And together we can actually make that a reality.

Outstanding. And what would you say the best place for the listeners can connect with you or your company is?

Probably the best way is to go through the website bioviva.science.com and there's a place to contact us there. You'll most likely get a hold of my assistant Catarina and you can chat with her and relay any messages through or ask any questions that you have. And I'm not very good at social media quite honestly and I'm sure I have a lot of opinions but I've never been a huge proponent to think that anyone's opinion is probably that important but so I'm sort of hit and miss on social media I'll come out and I'll put a few updates out or you can always look for bioviva on Facebook or Twitter. And then I have personally account Liz Parrish on on Facebook and I think I have an instagram and a Twitter but again I'm not at them very much but you bear with me. I do try to get to the messages.

So folks if you want to get in touch with Liz just go through the website be the best way and we'll leave that link on the show notes. Just go to outcomesrocket.com/bioviva. Liz, this has been a blast. You really have taken us down a path that is very forward looking and important to consider as we look to improve outcomes and health care. So just want to give you a huge thank you for spending time with us today.

Well thanks for having me on. It's been really fantastic. And any option and possibility that we have to get information out we just really appreciate it. It's really the most important thing that you can do is help a message spread.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Recommended Books:

Dune

The Sports Gene: Inside the Science of Extraordinary Athletic Performance

The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature

Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow

The Gene: An Intimate History

What is Life?: With Mind and Matter and Autobiographical Sketches

How to Read a Paper: The Basics of Evidence-Based Medicine

Best Way to Contact Liz:

https://bioviva-science.com/

Check out this Link:

https://outcomesrocket.health/podcast

How to Have Meaningful End of Life Conversations with Jethro Heiko, Co-Founder and CEO of Common Practice

How to Have Meaningful End of Life Conversations with Jethro Heiko, Co-Founder and CEO of Common Practice

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. Today have a magnificent person for you. His name is Jethro Heiko. He's the co-founder and CEO of Common Practice. He leads the company's mission to make great conversations in health care common practice much like here at the outcomes rocket through the podcast. They do it a little bit more uniquely Jethro has over 20 years of experience applying his skills in community organizing strategic nonviolence and bereavement to authentically and deeply engaged individuals, organizations and communities. Following the death of his father 20 years ago, Jethro founded a bereavement support organization which helped college students cope with the serious illness of death of a loved one. This is a really serious topic today as much of our family ages as well as ourselves. We have a lot more deaths per year and so the question is how do we deal with this stage of life? How do we deal with even early stages of life when people are faced with a chronic illness or a potentially deathly illness? This is the topic that we're going to be focused on today because Jethro and his team are very focused on this. So it's with an absolute pleasure that I welcome Jethro to the podcast welcome my friend.

Really excited to be here. Thank you , Saul.

Absolutely now did I leave anything in that intro that I may have missed that you want to share with the listeners?

I don't think so. I mean I think one thing I mention is that the listeners may think oh this is going to be a morbid topic. What kind of work is starting as a young person. I didn't realize I need to update my bio. My father died 25 years ago this summer and I have a 20 year old at the time. We were very close. He was very good at talking about his experience with cancer and he has also a terminal diagnosis. He knew he was going to die and that I did work with young people for a number of years we're coping with this years almost of a loved one and loss issues and what I found is this is not a joke, when you're more and more comfortable with these topics it opens up an entire new window into your experience. Professionally, personally you know it's not just about death and end of life it's about living your life in a way that's mindful of the fact that it won't be forever. So I think that just one thing I mentioned I want people to stay on people to stay and listen. So..

No for sure. I think that's a good call. Jethro and and folks you know we've had this end of life discussion with other guests that we've had on the podcast it's a very interesting topic to Jethro's point it brings to mind, you know Atul Gawande's book on being mortal talking through some of those things and the changes that have led to how we look at death today. So excited to dive into the things that you're doing Jethro. Now why did you decide to get in the medical sector to begin with?

From that experienceiIn my 20s I did work in community work. It was not specifically health care related. And about about 6-7 years ago my co-founder and I and our team found ourselves in the midst of a very interesting consulting project with a State Government around healthcare issues. And when that project ended in 2010 and 2012 we felt like we should really solve some meaningful issues in the medical sector in healthcare and felt that based on my experience and work around bereavement and our kind of work as human centered designers which is the way we kind think of ourselves that there was a real opportunity to explore ways that we could help health systems and the communities that they serve this better engage in conversations and interactions around these kind of tough topics that are often avoided. So that's what brought us into healthcare was a consulting project. And then when it ended and feeling like I'll really make an impact in this area.

Very cool so there's more to be done there and you guys decided to keep running with the torch. Now as you guys have been in this space for the last six seven years. What do you feel Jethro is a hot topic that needs to be on every medical leaders agenda today and how are you guys addressing it?

That's a great question. I think that one of the main things that we work on is closing this gap, the gap between a clinician and a patient family whether that's in the office or at some kind of appointment or meeting or on the phone. There's often this divide between the experience of the person who's dealing with illness and their loved ones and the health care provider whether that's a physician or a nurse right and the other kind of provider. And I think the bad gap which relates to how to initiate conversations can be filled not just through training and skills through really well design tools. So in our case it's a game called Hello and we think there's other opportunities out there design other interventions that improve medication and true relationship building build trust in a strong way without needing to take a lot of time. Time is of the essence and we don't have much of it in these interactions. And I think that those relationships and the way we communicate in healthcare then has all these other ripple benefits when it comes to both critical outcomes as well as really important top of mind issues for healthcare leaders like you know issues of turnover and burnout among the workforce which is a huge issue. And other kinds of costly things reputation, bad press stories, you know when you look at the actual reasons why bad things happen in healthcare. At the core of it it's often not necessarily a clinical intervention. Often the root is often more of a communication challenge. So I think that that's the thing I would bring to the special clinical leaders is really focusing on things that sometimes do seem a little bit more as a soft skill that are really critical and can be improved upon through very well design tools.

For sure. Yeah it's definitely a big need right I mean especially like you mentioned once you leave the hospital or a hospice for that matter it's hard to make that transition. Long term care facility. So what would you say Jethro is an example of how your organization has created results by doing things differently? You mentioned this game that you guys have maybe you talk about that a little better or maybe another example.

Great the game Hello is really one of our primary intervention. It's an analog game so it's played in person or by video but you know live with people using groups of anywhere from like three to five people. And I think one of the other innovations is that we now have health systems and their community partners holding events as large as you know 200 300 people within initiatives that help people engage in these conversations about things like advanced care planning, caregiving, coping with chronic and serious illness in a way that's actually enjoyable. So it's it is a game that's made up of questions that are very thought provoking things like what activities make you lose track of time or who haven't you spoken with and you'd like to speak with remedies with last six months that you'd like to speak with before you died the question to get at the heart of who you are. Someone know a bit more clinical. Some of them not as much clinical. So anyway I think that's our real prime example and bringing games into health care not the not the easiest thing to do. Been about over almost five years now since you released the game and increasingly there's a lot of openness to creative solutions in healthcare which is very good for us and I think good for healthcare. So I'm sure I can sort of talk about more about the game but if you think about meaningful conversations that you have with groups or friends your family sitting around a table after the game does but it doesn't require you to think so much or to come up with questions because the game itself facilitated by the players. And one of the research studies actually a number of research studies now show is that players play the game at a very high rate 80 percent of players take a meaningful advance care planning step within eight weeks without any other intervention.

I think that's that's pretty meaningful Jethro and so how did you guys come up with this intervention? It could have been a lot of things. How did you come up with this solution?

So it went right where we thought there might be a need and talk to people who dealt with that need all the time. So we met with and interviewed various kinds of healthcare professionals laypeople patients people that are coping with serious illness and advancing series on so people that are coping with death and dying on a regular basis. And what we heard from those folks in particular are remember a bunch of hospice nurses telling us that they could tell whether or not families had conversations about end of life care and those families that have had those conversations they could provide better care more quickly too. And we sort of took that as a challenge to design something to solve that problem.

So you didn't start with a video game and you are just kind of open minded?

Yeah actually yeah it's an analog game so it's not digital. We've started with really a question where do families have conversations. So we thought okay well families have competitions often around a table and we thought well, if it's just a regular conversation that's not quite enough. But where else do we kind of start conversations. We've got all our families have game nights that sit around and play a game after a Thanksgiving dinner. So we thought OK let's stick a little bit deeper into what games can offer when it comes to health care and communication healthcare.

Very cool Jehtro, that's a great idea. You know we recently had a guest on the podcast, Lucienne from there now and he's been involved in sort of singularity movement on health care and now one of the messages that he said is go where they are, meet them why they are - we are talking about how so many failures are made when ideas come up and you just come up with an idea without actually surveying or vetting out what you're going to do and being where they are was his message and sort of you took it to the essence of that right. Like where are our families having these conversations. And I love that that you came up with this idea that yeah you know dinner tables one thing but afterwards a lot of families do have this game time. So it's pretty neat that you landed on this show after you got it. I mean what were your findings? Did you did you pressure tested? Did you run with it?

First there was a response to a design challenge by the California HealthCare Foundation where named one of the winners. So we knew we had something, that family is a prototype of the game and that we felt like I needed even more testing so we get a Kickstarter campaign. This was in the summer of 2013 so five years ago this summer and reach our goal, we exceed our goal and we used all those Kickstarter backers as our test subjects. So we sent prototypes out to folks we would set up essentially focus groups the people playing the game in front of us so we could see how it worked. We tested over 400 by 450 questions to get down to though what's now 32 questions that are in the games like primary tool which is a questions booklet that each player has and writes in. So he is testing testing and that's one of the things about our approach a common practice is this real strong belief in iteration and really almost an embracing a failure failure as a real generative approach or opportunity. So that's the way we approach it as we did. So we go in knowing what we wanted to do we kind of went in and again love what Lucien said on a previous podcasts. You'll meet them where they're at which is a very you know it's very similar to the things that people say and the kind of work I did community work was you know you want to really keep an eye on where the people the community is at and an eye towards where they're going and the goal of design the kind of design that we do is kind of building our bridge between those two things.

I love it Jethro. I think that's so great that you guys are able to kind of go through that process. And here you are. Can you give the listeners an example of what kind of outcomes you guys have created improved outcomes through this?

Sure. There's all the research done mostly at Penn State Hershey Medical Center that is looking at things like the use of the game by patients and laypeople which is showing this activation rate at a very high rate of 80 percent or 75 percent across all studies. There's been research also about a lot of use of the game in training settings. So there was a study last year with chaplains and training and it turns out that just playing the game two or more times increases confidence and comfort with difficult conversations and an increase in the frequency in which these providers actually engage in difficult conversations that excite us because we think that we'll never scale will ever get to the scale we need around engagement around these issues just through skills training that we need very simple to use tools. Like I mentioned earlier when we have a lot of health systems that are in some ways the proof is in the pudding like organizations that are engaging in the thousands of people through initiatives where their staff are using the game to engage various community groups various patient populations and caregivers and families to really align care to initiate goals of care conversations and to encourage advance care planning.

I think that's pretty neat. Jethro and.

Thank you.

You know what. It just proves that people are open to these types of resources and becoming part of the normal training routine and making it part of an order set so to speak if death is to be near. I think it provides great resources for physicians. So if you're a physician leader or chief medical officer listening to this thinking to yourself, what are some gaps that we need to bridge? Jethro really has a great solution here for your practice for your organization and at the end of the podcast to provide you way to get a hold of him and check out the organization and what they provide. So don't go anywhere and still going to be having some more discussions about Jethro's experience here. So can you share with the listeners a time when you actually had a setback maybe something that almost made you want to stop what you're doing right now what you learned from that failure that the listeners can also learn from?

That's a great question I think, I mean in some ways the impetus of creating organization was like hey I'm not a pretty big failure. Many years ago which was six years ago I'd say which was that we basically had a crisis of imposter syndrome crisis. So you know we're you know felt like we were pretty good doing consulting work first time coming into health care and consulting and felt like we needed our team alone didn't have the skills or experience to do it effectively. So we actually hired a number of contract workers to work with us and our team. And they were seasoned and they are very experienced. And before we knew it we kind of lost control and let's just say it wasn't the prettiest of outcomes. So yeah in some ways I was kind of brought us I think eventually to kind of a more authentic approach to our work that was really as a people that really embrace change work and background. Like you mentioned that through the organizing and non-violence strategy our interests really are about helping people in leadership make the changes that they seek that are in support of the communities that they serve. And I think we thought what we have to look differently, we act differently, to talk differently with the sort of "be smarter than we were". And I think about my career about 25 years of it I've noticed that about myself that it's I can kind of undervalue things that I bring to the experience. And I think that's unusual for professional but.

It's very normal and you know I'm glad you're bringing this subject Jehtro because I think this is all too common actually and I think all of us have at one point or another had gone through this. Some learn the lesson, others don't. But I think folks with Jethro's talking about here as he called an imposter syndrome and also the feeling that what you have to offer isn't enough or it's not as valuable as you think it is. And in the end what ends up happening is your own belief that it isn't makes it so. Jethro, it sounds like with this sort of brought in some some people from outside of the organization spun out of control but then you went back to your roots what you knew and now you guys are rocking and rolling again.

And one resource that was really helpful and many of your listeners may have already may know her work that was really helpful to us and in some ways is very much. I think the principles behind her work are embedded into the design of our game because when we were the game her work was definitely top of mind. We were reading her books is the work of Brene Brown. That's the book that I think we were reading at the time was daring greatly. But she's had a couple of books since then. You know she's a scholar in Texas who looks at issues of kind of vulnerability and shame and really like very practical tools. I wouldn't say so much self-help. I mean really in some ways even more nitty gritty tangible things that you can use and that that may help us understand all this is what happened here is how we get back to who we are. Here's how we get back to adding value how we want to be in the world. So anyway that's a resource that I definitely recommend to listeners.

It's a great call out, will make sure to add that in the shownotes. So you guys made a great turn around. I mean it's been seven years you found your core strength again you built from it. And now you're adding huge value I mean thousands of people using your platform is no joke so you're obviously adding value to the conversations that affect all of us. All of us as listeners all of us as providers, all of us as entrepreneurs patients you name it. So what would you say Jethro is your proudest medical business leadership experience that you've had to date?

Tough one. You're like summer about to come up like I'll be speaking at upcoming conference in Charlotte. I'm very excited about. I've actually recently I was in Scranton Pennsylvania and was a visiting professor at the right center for graduate medical education. And in some ways I was the proudest moment because I don't think of myself really as an educator or my father and my mom to both educators. My father was a professor. So even just that one day of being called a visiting professor and having classes, you know sessions every session we played our game hello and then had discussions about kind of again how do you manage this gap what's in between people and really like in a clinical encounter. And it was great to have a set of five sessions during the day two of them were with third year residents and those sessions were very insightful, very dynamic. It's a really good robust discussion and so that was a very proud moment to be you know in front of groups of residents as a visiting professor and sharing what I've learned the wisdom and how to take things that much of the work I've done outside of health care and learning how to integrate got into the healthcare community benefit from some things that are oftentimes left outside of healthcare system work that really healthcare community benefit from.

So that's pretty great Jethro congrats on that. How did you feel? I mean you're you're the professor and you're kind of like in the footsteps of your parents. That must have felt pretty good.

It felt great. I can't say it was quite as dynamic as my father like you know being a professor of production management expert and a Japanese production manager just in time management principles so he included things like. Oh yeah exactly. Once he rode a Harley I think into the Harley uses that approach management he'd always serve sushi to his classes.

Dang. He sounds like a fun professor. I wanna be in his class.

Exactly. I didn't match him yet but I still have time to do it.

It's awesome man. He sounds like a fine guy and yeah and hey my wife's Japanese so little love there. That's very cool man. I love that. Well congrats on that and more to come because you're just at the beginning of it man. I mean you're doing so many great things, you're impacting the lives of many. And one thing that comes to mind here folks is the things that are most important. And and for me I kind of got this after reading that On Being Mortal by Atul talking thinking through what's important to you. I mean I found myself talking to my wife about "hey, how do you want to you want to be buried? You want to be cremated? How do you want to die. Do you want to die at home at the hospital? As you fall even though you're maybe far from death it's important to consider these questions as you put together your wealth or your trust. Because as you write out what you want to happen it's very healthy to have these conversations. What are your thoughts on that Jethro?

I think it's very healthy I mean it's funny because while I was designing the game my daughter was 5 my son was 3 or 8 now and I engage privily my daughter quite a bit in discussions about the game. We've been like tested questions on all the questions on her to answer all of them. So I think there's often a kind of perspective that this stuff is really scary. I think our approach on the kind of the questions that we have including the game it and the structure of the game like it's not just questions it's also there's chips in the game called Thank You chips which players give to each other to express gratitude for either of the other rules that make it safe. So for example you don't have to answer the question you can always pass you're always able to control the way that you're disclosing things. So there's I think that there's a lot to make from a lot of learned as a young person in coping with you know mortality with the fact that illness happens that happens to us it happens for people we care about. And those are going to be facts of life that you can't really control. But there is things you can control. You know how do you respond to those moments of adversity how you either do run from caregiving or you run towards it. You express the things that you feel are important to the people that you care about or you don't. I mean those are all things that we can choose when life sends us things that you can't choose. So that's the way I sort of see the work that we do. Yes it's about end of life and yes it can be frightening and yet there's a bunch of tools a bunch of skills about a bunch of insights that you know we didn't create on and it human beings have been creating ways for us to cope with this reality and challenge of life forever. Right. So what we've done in our work is harness harness some of those insights into an experience that is propelled by a game so that people find know non-threatening to engage in things that they might avoid. So I would say you know what we're not encouraging is just to blindly go into the world and talk about issues without some structure instead are really encouraging is whether it's our game or other structures use those structures, use those systems, use the fact that you may be part of a strong family or strong team or learn how to build those strong teams of strong families so that you can engage in the discussions but also cope with the reality of very challenging situations that unfortunately we're going to face. You know it has a number of times in our life and we can do better at it.

Inevitably and for sure it's a great out that structure keeping it there is key. Tell us about an exciting project or focus that you guys are working on there?

Super exciting project. Well I'm starting to get a lot of interest in the in the south which for me is exciting in part because I'm not from the south emerging from Boston even though my name is Jethro. I know. Strange but anyway so.

What does your name mean by the way?

Well Jethro is a biblical name. He was the father in law of Moses.

Oh wow. Cool.

And my parents like the story because Jethro gave Moses this advice that when Moses was overwhelmed with demands on his leadership that he should find 10 people to trust and in turn those 10 people will find people they trust is basically like how do you build a structure to deal with challenging issues. So.

Yeah

They like that. So kind of.

Kind of measures of what you did now.

Yeah, exactly.

That's pretty cool.

So I think it's really exciting to engage the people that I didn't engage with as a young person. I did encounter a lot of folks in the south. I haven't traveled that much in the south although I have been more recently and I do think I think it's fairly likely that if there is a statewide initiative that uses the Hello game to engage you know hundreds of thousands or millions of participants which I think will as will happen I think it will likely be a state in the south.

How do you feel that?

One because they're further along. So they are our largest partners are health systems and other organizational partners and I'd say right now North Carolina, Georgia.

Gotcha.

We're investing a lot of energy and time in that region in part not because we sort of said like let's focus our energy on the south so much as the South has sort of shown up as giving energy to us and really making investments that make sense and help us get to the scale we need to. Yeah of course if your listeners are not from the south and they say, "no, no we want to be the first state". I'm happy to talk to anyone like the other funny thing is we have a lot going on in British Columbia

Cool.

So I got this sort of like diagonal coming across the U.S. and Canada. So yes that's why I think the exciting thing is that we're starting to talk with partners about a scale that I feel like is really necessary to change the culture in a way that's meaningful around these issues which you know at a much larger regional statewide level.

That's pretty cool. So listeners if you're in the south or not if you're anywhere - Health care system leader looking to engage this topic of end of life in a refreshing way that is impactful to your physicians, to your patients, and caregivers definitely reach out to Jethro. If you go to outcomesrocket.health/Jethro you're gonna find the show now as well as a transcript and contact information there that Jethro will share here closer to the end. So just good outcomesrocket.health/Jethro for that. So Jethro, let's pretend you and I are building a leadership course and what it takes to be successful in the business of medicine today it is the 101 of Jethro Heiko. We're going to build the syllabus for questions lightning round style followed by a book that you recommend to the listeners. You ready?

I'm ready.

All right. What's the best way to improve health care outcomes?

Creating psychologically safe teams.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Over investing in technology.

How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Talk to your customers.

What is one area of focus that should drive everything in a health care organization?

Communication.

What's your all time favorite book jobs that you'd recommend to the listeners?

I think for the syllabus I'd go with The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle a more recent book but it's fascinating and I think kind of fabulous.

Love it. The Culture Code. Again listeners go to outcomesrocket.health/Jethro for links to the book, Jethro's company, as well as any of the other resources and transcript. This has been a blast brother I love if you could just share a closing thought and then the best place where the listeners could get in touch with you or follow you.

I'm grateful for your time Saul and your energy and for the patience of the listeners for listening in and so excited to see what comes next. I'm happy to talk to anyone I really enjoy, I don't think I would be true to myself if I started a company like this and didn't enjoy talking to people so happy to talk with any of your listeners and explore opportunities to partner and I think the best way to get a hold of us and certainly the website commonpractice.com way to learn about our work. A lot of videos there as well and some of you can also email me jethro@commonpractice.com and happy to find a time to talk directly as well.

Outstanding there you have it, listeners you get the website, you got the email address, make it happen. Don't sit there after this and just think about it for later if something about today struck a chord with you, take action. Jethro, just want to say thanks again really appreciate dedicating your time to the listeners as well as the community and looking forward to staying in touch with you.

That would be great. I really appreciate it, thank you Saul.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Recommended Book:

The Culture Code: The Secrets of Highly Successful Groups

Best Way To Contact Jethro:

jethro@commonpractice.com

Mentioned Links:

https://commonpractice.com/

Brene Brown

Lucien's episode

Being Mortal: Medicine and What Matters in the End

Check out this Link:

https://outcomesrocket.health/podcast

Creating Value Creation in Healthcare by Innovating Thoughtfully with Ashim Roy, Co-Founder & CEO, Cardiotrack

Creating Value Creation in Healthcare by Innovating Thoughtfully with Ashim Roy, Co-Founder & CEO, Cardiotrack

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. I really thank you for tuning in again because we have an outstanding guest for you. His name is Ashim Roy. He's the co-founder and CEO of Cardiotrack. Ashim champions the cause of value creation in every activity and uses innovation as the key tool for such value creation. After an illustrated career in the telecommunications industry with successful deployment of several generations of products from PSTN through 4G, Ashima is now working to bring I.T. solutions to healthcare industry health care technologies of the past have created access barrier for people in the developing economies. His focus is development of disruptive innovation to challenge the dominance of standalone medical technologies. On the podcast, we've had the privilege of having several international guests and Ashim is here to round out his experience and talk to us a little bit about what it is to create health care solutions for this international world. He has worked in several countries like Australia, Canada, USA and India where he's coming to speak to us from. And he's created talented teams to deliver technology and business solutions to clients across markets in these areas. It's a pleasure to have Ashim on the podcast. Ashim, welcome.

Thank you. Thanks for the great introduction. I really appreciate.

Absolutely esim. Now that I leave anything out of your introduction that you want to share with the listeners.

Oh sure. Actually what happened is that since my graduation undergrad is in India I had left the country. I did my Ph.D. in Australia and then I stayed overseas. I most stayed from Canada to US and I came back to India about 30 years later. It was a different country. Fortunately I had the opportunity at that time to travel to some of the areas from where I live. I live in Bangalore India at the moment and within a hundred kilometers you see a lot of rural territory and what I realize to many journeys in these areas is that affordable healthcare education and financial services were really significant barrier for many of the people living in those communities. And I wanted to do something about that. And I just wanted to add that and you know as part of my reflection.

Now and that's a really important factor Ashim, and so kind of gets us to the first question that I want to ask is what got you into the medical sector to begin with? You've highlighted why you're focused on what you're focused on today around the globe journey that's brought you back home. But what got you into healthcare to begin?

Ok looking at some of the challenges that face people living in rural communities in India and I'm sure similar conditions exist in many of the developing economies. What I saw was something interesting. I come from telecom background as you told your listeners and I have seen the effect of Moore's law being applied to telecom industry and the computer industry. You know the cost comes down every two years and the performance goes up every two years. I don't see that. I didn't see that in the healthcare sector and I felt intrigued by the fact that the healthcare solutions are being provided in silos there. There was no opportunity to bring innovation into healthcare industry particularly in a country like India. And that was a challenge and I felt that if we applied some of the principles of information technology and telecommunication etc we would be able to bring down the cost of healthcare. We would be able to deliver better care to communities in the rural areas because people in the urban area are generally taken care of. There's lots of infrastructure available expertise available etc. If you take a look at a simple problem not so simple for people living in the religious but cardiovascular diseases which is very common in India. And yet the cardiologists are only available only in the top 25 cities. So I felt that something had to be done and that brought me into the medical sector.

That's awesome. Hasheem and you know what. It's great that you identified this need. Like you pointed out even in developing countries we do have that care gap and it's important that we start looking to different ideas and technology to bridge that gap and so I'd love to hear your thoughts Ashim on an example of something that you and your team have done to create results to address this really what it is it's it's access right access to healthcare. So I'd love to hear your thoughts and any stories you have to share in that room.

Some of the things that I feel I feel that healthcare to the right of every citizen, everywhere, every country. Healthcare leaders need to shift their attention from primary care from tertiary care to more into primary care. If you look at many countries today particularly where there is love healthcare solution that is a larger importance to primary care. I'll give two examples. Either the NHS in the UK our health services in Singapore they probably are among the best in terms of healthcare being provided to the citizens of the country and there is adequate not only adequate it's really been established network of primary care physicians etc. and services available and I don't see that in countries like India developing countries like India. If there's a huge amount of infrastructure available in urban centers you know from the place that I live in Bangalore within 3 kilometer radius 2 mile radius then 6 major hospitals so I'm really lucky in case something happens to me that I got good services. Whenever I go out not even 50 miles maybe 30 miles outside of the city and that situation changes drastically. Finding a cardiologist is a prayer. Finding a specialist of any kind, finding simple diagnostic capabilities which are taken for granted in developing countries like USA will not be available.

So how do we address that?

Yes. So very good question. So let me kind of come to the main point that I'm trying to bring here is that to provide quality health care you need new technologies. Innovation in healthcare and design for developing economies like India. We cannot use the technologies that are available in the US or many of the developing countries because they would be too expensive for deployment in a country like India which is affordability that it would not be possible. However there are lots of things that can be done little things that can be done. Take a simple case of cardiovascular disease where it's a chronic illness get worse and worse over a period of time. If a simple EKG capability exists at the primary care level in these rural communities what happens is that all of sudden we are able to diagnose people early enough and early diagnosis on basics like and it's always less expensive. By no means it's rocket science. It's a very simple solution and yet we don't have those kinds of solutions today and that's exactly what we are trying to bring to the known urban areas to communities that are underserved. We want to provide those kinds of solutions.

I think that's great achievement. And you know we recently had a guest. His name is Rani Shifron. He's over in Israel and his organization Global health is very much focused on the impact that you're working to effect then one of the examples that he provided much like your example is you know the technologies that exist in developed countries really have a ton of bells and whistles that aren't necessary for basic functions like an EKG for example. And so what can we do if we want to address the needs of the broader global population. This is a conversation really kind of at the government level. How are we going to address it? Right. And so to ashram's point we've got to take a look at small shifts small things that can be done in order to make that type of impact an EKG for example is one of those things that can be done. Have you guys Ashim started any programs anything that's yielded results thus far?

Okay so I think thanks for pointing out that the technologies that are developed. You know you can look at it better developed in the Western countries and to fit the budgets of the developing communities. And just to illustrate that in another way. One example I would like to give is everyone most of your listeners will be Mulier that Microsoft Excel spreadsheet. I'm a power user of Microsoft excel and I think I use only maybe 3 percent of the capabilities the bells and whistles that are there. I rarely use them.

Yep.

So that's either actually thing that can be done in healthcare. And what you have done the EKG. There are expensive solutions that are available which are suitable for IC use. That's the market that we want to go to because for us the diagnosis must happen at the primary care level.

Yes.

If One actually will reach the ICU so we can provide very simple solution hand-held solution robust solution that's been worked in that pressure are the other environmental conditions that exist at the primary care level. There's no air conditioning. You know the temperatures can go up to maybe higher than 10 degrees Fahrenheit. The device has to work under that condition. What we can take advantage of certain things that are actually coming down in price so fast that it's amazing take for example that smartphone. We don't really need a printed piece of paper to give you see the output because what is patient going to do with it instead. If that information is available to it on an Android phone which cost less than 100 dollars all of a sudden we have the capability of displaying the mission. That information is available electronically that can be sent to a cardiologist hundred miles away or maybe across the world. And all of a sudden we have created a solution based on existing technologies around us. And yet the solution is very low cost.

Yup. So taking this example is a great way of doing things and so tell us a little bit about a time when you tried one of these things and maybe you ran into some obstacles, Ashim. What did you learn from those obstacles?

We ran into lots of obstacles and I'm glad that we did because we come from myself and my other co-founder both technologies come from nonmedical background and as a result of that we made assumptions that were not necessarily correct. So I'll give you three or four examples or maybe two or three examples depending on how much time we have but a simple one was that during the early testing of the product we had given the product to ambulance driver and he was driving around the whole day with the device. And India is very hard most of the year and his palms would get sweaty. He's getting the device that could slip out of his hands and fall down. So by the time he finished his trial two weeks later he was very apologetic he was like sad face. And I spoke with him through a translator because I didn't understand his language and he figured out that it failed on multiple times and has been very sorry about it. And yet it's a simple feedback that actually changed the way it is now. We actually have per day silicone rubber grip around it. It's easy to hold very very comfortable. It doesn't slip out of the hand and more or less. Moreover if it falls down, nothing happens to the device. Another one I will tell you is we made the assumption incorrectly or maybe we were too naive and those days that we thought that if we allow our device and the information from our device to travel from the primary care physician to a cardiologist, our job is pretty much done. We got a cardiologist come on line provide guidance to the primary care physician. They will talk to each other. Everything is great. And the patient is taken care of. What we didn't realize is how imbalanced the situation is in countries like India. There are 60 million people with cardiovascular illnesses less than 10000 cardiologists. So guess what? Every time a primary care physician wanted to get in touch with the cardiologist, they will be busy somewhere else and so they wouldn't get any response on their query from the cardiologists or maybe a few or maybe never. In some cases because the cardiologist is really the busiest person under the sun. So what we have to do is that we have to rethink our solution. And that's when we realized that interpretation if we want to deliver a solution that would work under all the circumstances then the solution has to be on the basis of either machine learning or the IBS and the patient that we can deliver to the primary care physician on time every time without hearing you. And that's exactly what we ended up renting. So these are the market feedbacks that we got these are mistakes but in the end it's actually all a better solution.

That's great. Now at this point how far is your reach how many are you working with clinics with hospitals?

I have to use a much used the phrase call out of the box solution. So let me explain what I mean by out of the box solution is that our solution is designed for primary care. All the work that the hospitals. And I'll explain to you why we work with the hospitals because the intervention with reluctantly committee happened in the hospital. Hospitals have the maximum affordability in terms of deploying these kinds of solutions. So what we do is that we actually work with the highest cardiac centers we deploy our solution. These devices at the primary care clinics around let's say one or two mile radius of the hospital through this process and the hospital basically is a payer, meaning for us they are the customers they pay for the devices on a subscription model for this deployment number of scans are taken at the primary care level primary care physician doesn't fairly have the affordability to pay for this kind of technology. So hospitals pays for it. The primary care physician is the user and the patient is the beneficiary. So now what happens is that when the patients come and they complain about a test ban the primary care physician says come on over I'll take the scan. He tells the nurse to take a stand. Innovation happens by the time the patient is up after putting on their shirt. The information is already available and then the plan to get decides if this case is acute care case in which case they'll call an ambulance and send a patient or to the hospital. Otherwise they'll say that come back later on or whatever the case may be or maybe prescribe them some medication. But the end result is that now we have created a new flow of patients for the hospitals which didn't exist before because the hospital didn't know which patients are walking around the acute care condition.

Absolutely. And so now you've got a good workflow established. What would you say is you started this company and you're impacting the health of your community. Ashim, what would you say one of your proudest medical leadership experiences has been to date?

Actually there are several but.

If you have to pick one.

Yeah ok I'll pick one. So in the early days of our testing what happened is that we found a primary care physician and somewhat rural community where 50 miles away from Delhi, the capital of India. And what happened is that I had to talk to him at least three or four times and then I'd visit him one time to request him to use the device because we really wanted some rural experience in our side that okay. This device is being used in the rural area. This is how things happen. So after about two months or so when I checked back that this primary care physician I heard something that totally blew me away. First of all he told me that he had identified two patients who had acute care requirement and he shipped them over to a hospital and then he told me that you have given me something wonderful but I cannot use it. And I was totally blown away. I said doctor you have saved lives already. So I want to use it. And he said that you've given me a device where I actually found the patient could not afford to go do it at tertiary care facility. And a month later I found out from her case that her family that the patient passed away and the doctor felt really miserable. I had to sit down there and talk to the doctor for next half an hour ,maybe 45 minutes to explain to him that that's a condition that you can control is beyond your control to be able to take care of everyone but just think of the number of life that you are saving for a primary care physician to save three lives in their lifetime. In India a particular country like India. People go for coffee gold etc. etc. some simple things. And yet he managed to save lives. That's like getting three Oscars. So I had to extract every ounce ownself positiveness that I had inside me and not to this doctor to convince him that he should continue to use it. He's been using this device since 2014 now and it still operational.

That's awesome. Yeah. You did a really great job Ashim of putting it into perspective. Right. I mean it was it wasn't in his control and ultimately if he didn't use it who else would have died if they had. Yeah exactly. So that's great and kudos to you for sort of getting him to see that side of the picture. Tell me a little bit more about an exciting project that you're working on today.

So we haven't had a provider of solution. We have always been afraid of government organization because the issue is that with government organization requires a different mindset different level of patience etc. which at the start of organization we don't have that in our DNA. Well what typically happens is that we get afraid but finally actually this month beginning of this month I happened to meet a very dynamic government official in this small town somewhat farming community in state of Gujarat which is in the western part of the country. So what happened is that I had a conversation with them after the interruption someone actually introduced me to him and then I had a conversation with him for 10 - 15 minutes. And next thing I knew is that a week later I was visiting him and following me. He actually launched the program. He got so impressed looking at what we had done. Obviously we tested it in front of him and showed him how this could be useful etc. We did all of those things and a week later he basically invited me for a launch of a program for heart health patients in rural part of the community and I was so blown away by that and this is a good example of a public private partnership. He is on the side of public healthcare side of things and we are a private organization patient that the deployment is all at the public health clinics. Are primary healthcare clinics where the art equipment is deployed and any time a patient is found they who require requires intervention are actually referred to a private hospital because there is no government facility available in the surrounding area where patients could be treated for calculus illnesses. So for even you have made it's a really really good model for public private partnership and I'm very proud that we had a few of it. And I'm just amazed at the you know the dynamic gentlemen at the Public Health Center in that state who took the initiative and understood the solution and implemented it is really fantastic.

Yeah that's great. What a great success story Ashim and just kind of a reminder to us hey you could be afraid of something but you know what. Feel the fear and then just do it anyway because that's how great things happen. In healthcare you just got to go forward with it. And like Ashim did you know what. Him and his organization were a little fearful of what could happen with working with government. But they did it anyway and partnerships have been made and great things to follow because of his courage and also the government's foresight into their technology could do. So kudos to you my friend. Getting close to the end here of the interview with time flies. I want to build a leadership course with you through a lightning round. We've got four questions. We're going to call this the 101 course of Ashim Roy. And so we're going to form a syllabus for the listeners four questions that you'll answer quickly and then we'll finish it up with a book that you recommend to them you're ready?

I'm ready.

All right. What's the best way to improve health care outcomes?

Preventive care close to the home.

What is a biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Technology is not the answer to all health care challenges.

How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Key thing here is to go the extra mile whatever the responsibility the person has. Every person has that and a lot of responsibilities. They should begin this possibility and to go the extra mile.

There is no traffic in the extra mile right, Ashim? What's the one area of focus that should drive everything in a health care organization?

I think there are lots of people who are underserved just saving life for the people in the under subcommunities is the best thing that one can do.

Love it. What book would you recommend to the listeners?

Only the paranoids survive

Very interesting, a very fascinating company in healthcare the way that they manage their health portfolio as well as their insurance. Only the paranoid survive folks check that out. You could find all of our show notes. links to Ashim and his company go to outcomesrocket.health/ashim which is ASHIM you can find all that there. Ashim, before we conclude. I'd love if you could just share a closing thought and then the best place where the listeners could get in touch with you.

Healthcare innovation from developing economies really can change the way the healthcare is delivered in developing nations as well because the cost of healthcare is rising very fast. The frugal solutions coming out of developing economies can bring the cost down.

Love it. And what would you say the best place for the listeners could get in touch with you is?

ashim.roy@gmail.com.

Outstanding. Ashim, thank you so much for your insights and visiting this really key topic of health in the rural areas and also access to health care. Keep up the great work. I know that you and your team will continue doing great things and we really appreciate you spending time with us today.

Thank you very much indeed. Thank you for the opportunity. And I'd love to hear back from anyone who is listening to this podcast.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Recommended Book:

Only the Paranoid Survive: How to Exploit the Crisis Points That Challenge Every Company

Best Way to Contact Ashim:

ashim.roy@gmail.com

Link:

http://cardiotrack.io/

 

 

Solving a $50 Billion Dollar Problem with Machine Learning with Benjamin Fels, Founder and CEO at macro-eyes

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we reach out with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. Today I have Benjamin Fels as a guest. He's the founder and CEO at Macro-eyes. He leads teams that innovate and build systems that recognize predictive patterns and macro-eyes, they use machine learning to increase access to care. Their live clinical product and a two leading academic medical center institutions they develop supply chain analytics product for one of the largest value based healthcare systems in the U.S.. Today it's super important that we find ways to apply artificial intelligence and machine learning to healthcare. Because let's face it we're not able to scale the number of patients that need care with a number of providers that can give it. And so that's why that'd be so timely to have Benjamín on the podcast today to talk to us a little bit about what they do it macro-eyes as well as the concept of machine learning and how we can apply it in healthcare so Benjamin. It's a pleasure to have you on the podcast sir.

Thank you. The pleasure's mine.

So Benjamin did I leave anything out in your intro that maybe you wanted to have the listeners know more about.

No no just kidding. That's not I. I don't love talking about myself. So maybe some other pieces of the backstory of Macro-eyes as a company or from my own history of working with my friends will sort of come out through this conversation. So I'd love to just dive into it.

Beautiful Love that you open that loop there. And so you know before we do dive into that I'd love to hear what got you intrigued or interested in the medical sector to begin with.

Well that's a good question because I didn't train as a doctor as a company we've been working in healthcare now since since 2014. But it's I bet it's a pretty unconventional route. So sort of go backwards in time here to answer that. So..

All right.

I've worked on what you could broadly call pattern recognition for many years and I believe in and I pretty sure that most of the people who are listening would agree with me that health care poses the most complex and at the same time most important problems in pattern recognition. This is where pattern recognition matters. So OK now let's go to sort of how I got to this point. So I graduated with a degree in the history of art and the way that I see the history of art as a series of exercises and pattern recognition how one artist perceives, reflects on, interacts with art that came before art from other places. And there's a way to see that transformation refraction of pattern. When I graduated college I then went to go work for a quantitative hedge fund first in Chicago then in London. My job was to predict patterns and data faster more accurately than our competitors. That was it. It was very clearly defined. I mean there's that great beauty in that in that clarity. I led teams that traded global markets 24 hours a day. I led teams also built autonomous agents so what I now know is called machine learning. So basically machines that looked at patterns and data in markets and looked for signals that we might have missed and acted upon. And financial markets as a whole are decades ahead of healthcare in terms of designing and implementing infrastructure for I guess what we could broadly call data driven decision making. So designing systems that learn as reality on the ground changes. So it's everything in financial markets is always responding reacting learning. There's a very powerful very heavily incentivized feedback loop there. Nothing is ever static. So essentially I left this hedge fund to found a company so that I could take this approach this mindset and a bit of new ideas for technology to where it is needed most. And we believe that's healthcare. And again this concept that. Pattern recognition the ability to detect patterns that are meaningful and large amounts of data where that is the most important is in both the delivery of care and the practice of care and I'll just speak a little bit about some of my colleagues in this company because it's certainly certainly not me doing this all on my own. So I found it with two other people a chief design officer and a chief AI officer. Maybe we'll get a little bit later in this conversation to why I think that mix is important. So Sebastian Cowper's and Sebastian is our chief design officer and he has had a really a career long commitment to thinking through how healthcare organizations can best use data. And this is from huge global pharmaceutical companies to one of the first personal health data dashboards which he designed for a company now more than 10 years ago and surprise our lead AI officers since read is a world renowned expert in large scale machine learning and optimization and a professor at MIT. So I hope I answered that question about sort of how how I got to healthcare.

Absolutely. And you've now focused on this area. You've got a phenomenal executive leadership team there at your company. You're tackling Data in Healthcare and making insights so as it relates to that Benjamin, what would you say a hot topic that needs to be on every medical leaders agenda today and how are you guys approaching it?

So I gave away this answer a bit already and I hope this is the answer that many other leaders in healthcare would come to but absolutely machine learning or AI and me and maybe to talk a little bit later about the distinction between those two. But again this is medicine is pattern recognition and the delivery of care should be pattern recognition at scale, at speed. And the thing that is so unique about healthcare as an industry is that it is unparalleled in the richness of the data that it holds that describes almost every one of us in incredible detail, meaningful clarity and no other domain has such an impact on human life and has this incredible picture of each one of us. And I mean all of us have experienced this for better or for worse every time we go to see a doctor or nurse. They spend a lot of time mentoring in data and speaking very, very, very broadly and I'm going to ruffle some feathers here. Very little of that data is effectively put to use to build what we could again say very broadly our learning systems for help very little of that data is learned from in a systematic structural way to personalize care to make care more efficient. And I see absolutely no reason why that should continue to be the case.

Love your passion for this. Benjamin and I agree. You know a lot of the data that we shovel into EMR is stays shoveled into silos. That is not accessible by anybody outside of the system. Definitely a problem right. And so you guys work to offer this solution to health care. You've decided on the macro-eyes. So can you give us a little bit more detail about what macro-eyes is focused on and what's the problem what's the solution you guys are providing?

Sure. So I'll tell you a little bit of the evolution of the company and also the problem that we're most focused on today. So we founded this company in 2014 and we spent a number of years refining and deploying core machine learning at a leading academic medical center in York City at Stanford at one of the largest health systems in the United States and at a number of federally qualified health centers across the country.

And what came out of this experience was a couple of a very robust technology for understanding patient behavior and understanding patient behavior multi-dimensional and what I mean by that is at many points in healthcare, the understanding of the patient is very or at least the classification of the patients is very limited. Fifteen year old male diabetic but there are hundreds if not thousands of other data points in dimensions which are going to inform both the care that is most appropriate for that patients and how we should think about risk and also opportunities and our expertise is that ability to build these very rich pictures of patients in time and the other important thing that came out of this experience largely focused on clinical decision support during these years were working with physicians, physicians scientists to answer clinical questions and from a business perspective probably the most important piece of this is that we we've got an understanding of healthcare as a business and as everybody listening here knows it's a very complicated business it's very difficult to to understand. And I think we got an understanding of the problems that are solvable and the problems that are less solvable particularly for a small company like ours and one of those problems that came to us again and again and again and from many different perspective this is really twofold. One schedules that don't work schedules that aren't predictable a day that a provider has which is chaotic. So it's a balance between having 10 patients in the waiting room all waiting for the same slot and other periods of the day where four of the five patients who were scheduled don't show up. So it's it's sort of feast or famine and there's a significant financial impact to that. There is a clinical impact that this is important to patients, it's important to administrators, it's important to physicians. Scheduling is really the front door to care. And our own response to that was to spend the last. Now more than a year developing and implementing and refining a product called Sybel and Sybel is software for intelligent patient schedule and what that means is that Sybel identifies when each patient is most likely to show for an appointment and uses that insight to build a better schedule, a schedule that is more predictable, a schedule that increases access to care and a schedule that reduces the number of times in the day when there are expensive gaps in the schedule and reduces those periods in the day when there are many patients waiting and waiting and waiting in the waiting room because they've all been booked for the same timeslot.

That's fascinating and through the work that you've done you found that this is one of the biggest problems. And you're right it's definitely a huge issue. And so you've deployed a solution to help fight this problem. Intelligent scheduling.

Yes. Yeah. And I want to emphasize and this is sort of one of the things that drives us as a company and so when all of us think about what machine learning, artificial intelligence, innovation in healthcare probably what comes to mind, Robots, self driving cars, things happening on Mars. And one of the strong beliefs in our company and that I really want to emphasize is that where innovation is both needed the most and has the greatest likelihood of actually making an impact are these issues at the very foundations. Of care issues that touch operations supply chain scheduling. Think of that as this is the roads and the airport of healthcare right. This is the core building blocks that when they don't work the whole system suffers. And when they work effectively now you have a base that you can build on and you can build something which is much more efficient. And we would argue also were personalized and enables both better access to care and more personalized care.

And I love that you've focused your efforts in this very niche area that frankly a lot of health systems health executives I mean if you're listening to this you're probably like yeah I'm definitely struggling with this. It's a billion dollar problem. There's a big loss of revenue due to people not showing up to their appointments. And so I think it's interesting that you guys decided to just niche down to this particular pain point.

Yeah and part of it has to do with again this from our perspective and this is what really, really exciting this is a problem that we believe is solvable. And again I'm gonna say maybe some some controversial things here but there are a number of issues in healthcare that particularly when you're new to healthcare as an entrepreneur and you look around and you see things that just don't make any sense. And if you're looking at that from an entrepreneurial mindset. These are why should start a company to address this and this and this and each one of these is maybe 50 billion dollar problem. But I think if you are humble and you observe carefully you start to notice that many of those issues you cannot solve them as an entrepreneur even if you are enormously successful because perhaps at some level they are the result of policy or they are the result of a certain structure that's in place. And you know we could argue whether that's a good structure or a bad structure but it's very often something that you cannot move even if you are immensely successful as a company. And what our job as a startup and as a startup that wants to make an immediate impact and I would argue that that's the job of every startup. Our job is to find those points in health care where we can affect change we can push the system towards operating better operating more efficiently giving greater access to care to patients because that's that's what we get excited about. Right we want to do something where we can have an impact.

Absolutely. And listeners by the way if you're curious if Benjamin has has hooked you at this point which definitely probably has hit pause and go to gosibyl.com. You'll see a little quick video on what the software does for your scheduling. So it's G O S I B Y L.com. Check them out. They're definitely doing some very intriguing things to use A.I. to help you keep those patients in those slots that are scheduled for whether they show up or not. So this is fantastic work that you guys are up to here. Benjamin looks like you guys even received Grand Challenges exploration grant to deploy a version of it in East Africa by the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation.

Yeah that's really really exciting. So I'll talk a little bit about that. So we described here that this evolution. You know we we spent years in where we're up close to clinical questions. Our core technology has analyzed several million medical records and has learned from all of this and then out of this came this manifestation of that this product which uses insight into patient behavior to build a better schedule to better predict demand and to build better schedule so you can make best use of existing resources and offer the basis of that. We were awarded this very prestigious funding from the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation and USA which is development and its government to design the first predictive supply chain for vaccines and at a certain level. And bear with me here as I as I explain this I see these really remarkable similarities. So our aim with this work is to increase the coverage so increase the number of children who can access vaccines and significantly cut the amount of vaccine wastage. And this is also a many many many many billion dollar a year problem. And it is also a problem which you can measure in terms of human lives just like in the United States where if you have to wait weeks and months to access care because the scheduling doesn't work and if you are particularly ill your illness will become far more grave with that period of time. So if a child is brought to a facility and they've run out of that vaccine that's an opportunity that you might lose forever. So our job is to analyze data which describes these different facilities and use that to predict exactly the right amount of each type of vaccine to be delivered to each clinic. No more and no less. Because if you deliver too many vaccines what happens is you're significantly increasing the likelihood that there will be wasted vaccines are very very fragile. They live in these delicate glass files they have to live uninterrupted in a very very narrow temperature range there just really easily breakable. You deliver too few vaccines to a facility and then you have this issue of people are coming traveling to this facility to be vaccinated and you have to turn them away. So this is really a case of get where you want to exactly nail demand, you want to get a perfect sense of how many people are going to show up if you can get that right. You can make best use of existing resources.

Yeah you know it's super interesting project and talk about hypersensitive matter with the vaccines. I mean you guys are definitely doing some cool work Benjamin. Scheduling Vaccines is the Bill Melinda Gates Foundation. This is super cool stuff that is making an impact. So I feel like as health leaders, we often learn more from our setbacks than the things that we've done right. And if you could just share one of the setbacks that you guys had and much you learned from it to make you guys stronger?

Sure. So I'll go again back in time to the beginning of this company. And our first customer was Stanford. And at the same time we were working with a leading academic medical center in New York City and in both at both institutions and in both cases these are these are world famous organizations. These are these are places that are at the very cutting edge of care and in both cases we're working with with brilliant physicians and physicians scientists and and I'm going to describe a bit sort of our again our our founding thesis and how we changed that idea but our basic concept again is that medicine is pattern recognition. So let's pretend here that I'm a patient and I walk into your office and you're a brilliant physician and you look at me and you look at my chart and clicking away your brain is this a version of what we call patient similarity. So where have I seen a patient like Benjamin before have I read in the literature about a case like this. As a colleague in the hallway mentioned you know I saw a patient three weeks ago with this this this and this and then that happened. And that is going to guide almost every point on the journey a pair prognosis diagnosis a notion of risk a notion of which medication to prescribe when. And our founding idea was let's bring scale and depth and muscle to this. This pattern recognition that the good doctors do and let's take it across every record that sits in that organization so they can get the best sense of when have we seen a patient like this before and what happens and what we underestimated. To a great degree is the extent to which physicians have been forced to deal with technology that asks an enormous amount of them and delivers almost nothing and because of that. Rightfully so. And I will support them the whole way here. Physicians are overwhelmingly wary of working with yet another piece of technology that will guide them during this complex process of clinical decision making and I think the other thing that we learned is that if we want to support that process of decision making we need to earn trust and that trust has to be built up incrementally slowly. It might take years to build that trust. Being inside that institution and we believe innovating and improving on the very foundations of care because the other thing that we like about the points where we have focused is that very often there are very clear metrics that you can present and you can point to the impact again and have a very clear way and that helps to build trust. So just to reiterate here I think that the big mistake we made is we thought well this is transformative technology. Of course physicians will want to use that and we just didn't understand enough about the day to day reality of what physicians have to do with technology and how how much they dislike that interaction. And again speaking very very broadly for all of us on the side of the table who are building technology for health care. This is something that we have to think very carefully about how do we gain that trust and how do we deal with a community of users who are skeptical and again rightfully so from the very beginning.

And you've brought up some great points. And I've done over 400 interviews now and the topic of adoption you know and getting clinicians to adopt a technology you it just continues to resurface. And it sounds like after the journey of figuring that out you've really gotten a clear idea of how to you know number one address it and number two just meeting them where they are. And so what would you say the best way to do that is today. Have you guys done it. It's a problem for a lot of people.

That's a good point. So I would say I mean part of our answer to that is we are trying to make that day of every physician better, easier and largely by working in the background. So our product Sibyl is not something that a physician necessarily will interact with. Now I've worked with many physicians who are extremely involved in scheduling because it impacts every second of their day and they have very strong opinions about how that schedule should be structured. But our job I think first and foremost from a physician perspective is to make their day predictable and I cannot overemphasize how important that is. So let's put aside for a second the financial actual impact. And again this is a hundred and fifty billion dollars a year are lost in the U.S. alone just scheduling that doesn't work. That's a big number that just so happens to be what I believe to be the global cost.

I knows it was in the billions that it knows 150 billion it's High.

This is more than what the world spends to care for patients with cancer. So we're we're talking big, big, big numbers here. And let's put that aside for a second and let's put aside the access to care piece and let's just think about how a physician goes through their day and imagine trying to be efficient. And imagine trying to do your best which is what every provider of care wants to do when if you have for instance five appointments scheduled for every day, you have no idea which patients are actually going to show up which means how do you prepare for that. Secondly that means if we back out from that how do you allocate additional resources when we should. What types of support when should which types of nurses be available. Which of the supply chain kick-in in winter certain goods necessary and just that feeling of going to work every day and not knowing how many people are going to walk through that door is very difficult to work with. And that's something that we learned an enormous amount about during this experience of deploying and working with different organizations and that one of the things that came up over and over and over and over again is that this is literally driving our providers crazy. In one of the things that they talk about all the time is just how destabilizing and difficult it is to do your job when you have no sense of what is going to happen in the next day, hour, two days. And the more predictable you make that schedule, the more in control of their day providers are the better they can prepare and the more efficient the whole system becomes.

Love it. You definitely honed in in a big way. Benjamin so kudos for you and your team for being so hyper focused. It's definitely what's needed to move the needle in this space for sure. So within all of the things that you're doing today what would you say an exciting project or focus is for you.

I'm very excited about these early deployments of civil just because every time we work with an organization we learn new things and this sounds cliche to say but it's absolutely true. I mean one of we recently sat with some schedulers in Alaska and they shared their scheduling care that is very complex in many levels. They're scheduling sequential care they're scheduling care oftentimes for a family because the distance traveled to the clinic is so great that maybe everybody is going to get in the car or try to see this physical therapist this occupational therapist on the same day. And so they have to find maybe four or five different types of appointments which are just certain order and balance that with the availability of providers. And they shared with us that this can take some 45 minutes to put together a schedule and we didn't build our software for that used case we didn't think about oh well this is going to save schedulers time. Our goal is to increase access to care for patients and build a schedule which maximizes utilization. But we realized well if we can cut that down to a minute for a scheduler that means the schedule will have more time and that means the scheduler could then spend his time her time in what we believe is the best use which is engaging directly with patients. So imagine that the scheduler could then pick up a phone and personally call the patients who they're the most concerned about not showing up and a personal phone call is so much more meaningful than getting a text message before moving an automated reminder or an e-mail. There's just as human beings we respond very strongly to human beings. And that's something that you can't do if you're spending 45 minutes to schedule an appointment.

It's a great call out and the journey is exciting and Benjamin if people want to engage with your software if they're curious about it they're listening right now and you're like OK just tell me how I could get involved. Where do they go?

They should definitely go to the website you just mentioned, gosibyl.com and send me a note. So my first name benjamin@micro-eyes.com, and I'd love to have a conversation.

Love that. So folks the website. Benjamin's email. All those things. I'll have them for you here on the show notes. Just go to outcomesrocket.health/sibyl and sibyl is S I B Y L. So outcomesrocket.health/sibyl and you'll find a way to get a hold of Benjamin and get started with this phenomenal scheduling platform. Benjamin this has been a blast. Time flies when you're having fun. Would love if you could just share a closing thought and then the best place where the listeners could follow the work that you're doing.

Well I think that if I could share a closing thought all a little bit more broadly to just sort of what we've observed with working with a number of health care organizations. Big, small and the lesson that I'd love to get across to health care leaders is embrace risk. So understand risk. Think about it carefully. But embrace the right type of risk. And there are very often opportunities to work with innovative companies like ours and we're certainly not the only one out there where the downside is very limited. But the upside is almost immeasurable and maybe I'm sort of putting back on my hat from when I used to trade derivatives but that's exactly the type of risk you want. Right. You know the worst that can happen here is nothing and that's it right. Yeah nothing collapses. No one gets fired. But the best that could happen here is transformative. Right it's a transformation of how we deliver care. And I would love to see more of that intelligent risk taking.

I love that call out and folks I know we've we've talked a lot about Sibyl at gosibyl.com but also check out Benjamin's company macro-eyes macro-eyes.com. You'll see some of this thought process that he has shared. He's a thought leader in this space applying what he did with derivatives into health care. We're always trying to manage risk and I think it's a good opportunity for you learn the philosophy that him and his leadership team are leading with here. So check them out macro-eyes.com. But again you could get that link and all the rest just keep it simple. Go to outcomesrocket.health/sibyl, S I B Y L and you'll find everything there. Benjamin, truly appreciate the time you've carved out for us and we're excited for you and we're excited to stay in touch.

Thank you. Thank you for a wonderful conversation.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Email: benjamin@micro-eyes.com

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How to Innovate Systems, Service Models and Products with Less with Geoffrey Gurtner, Professor & Vice Chair of Surgery at Stanford University

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the outcomes racket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. Today I have Dr. Jeffrey Gertner with us today to chat with a little bit about health care that maybe you're not used to. Different angle on surgery as well as reconstructive surgery and startups. Dr. Gertner has a wide array of experience. He is a professor and vice chairman of surgery at Stanford University, a plastic surgeon by trade and also research scientists. He has a lab that focuses on translational projects that are developed in the lab and are commercialized to improve patient care. He's also general partner at Tautona Group where they lead and the development of new technologies for aesthetics reconstruction, room care, surgical and biomaterial devices. And finally he's founder and director at Neodyne Biosciences where they're they're basically an evidence based company developing and commercializing innovative tissue repair devices to minimize scar formation. Restoring both function anesthetic appearance lab topics that are of interest to you. So super excited to have Jeffrey on the podcast. Thanks for joining us.

Thank you for inviting me I'm delighted to be here.

So Jeffrey anything that I left out in the intro that maybe you wanted to share with the listeners?

I think you covered most of the things that I do and it kind of them little bit guilty of a short attention span I found I'm a clinical medicine and have a lab and then also have tried to work in the private sector to bring you know new technologies and innovations to patients around the world.

And it's super important work that you do. So I'm excited to dive into some of that in the podcast today. Why don't we kick it off with you letting us know why health care like what got you in the health care to begin with?

Yeah it's a good question. I think I I again was looking at lots of different options growing up and certainly in college and medicine really stood out as I thought about it just because it had a piece of it that was business, piece of it that was more art than science. That piece that was science and that really seemed like for someone again who might be guilty of a short attention span. There were lots of different paths that you could travel as a physician and it seemed more like an adventure than a job. And so you know through process of elimination I kind of just decided that it was the exciting thing to go into and kind of have never looked back since.

That's awesome. And you've definitely done quite a bit in the time that you've been in the field. Jeffrey if you had to zoom in to hot topic that needs to be on leaders agendas listening today what would you say the hot topic is and how are you and your different organizations you're involved with approaching it?

Yeah I think you know just the the thing that struck me being an academic medicine in the private sector is just the real inertia of the medical system and the real challenges we have and not just in innovations in terms of therapeutics or devices but even in innovating changes in the systems and service models so that we can become more and more efficient and do more with less and just the natural frictional points that are kind of legacy parts of our medical system in the United States that are just really those kind of nimble innovation synthetically out here in Silicon Valley you see people disrupting gigantic industries left and right. And I don't think that's really possible in medicine because there are so many different stakeholders including the federal government that are involved in it. But you know it doesn't mean it's impossible and so I think just constantly thinking about how can we make the system better how we think about how to make the care of an individual patient better and trying to knock down those those barriers our least work within the system. I think it's kind of a job one for all of us what we're clinicians or scientists or entrepreneurs or executives or innovators. It's not a simple thing. So it has to be front of mind for us to be successful.

Yeah Jeffrey I think that's a great call-out and I feel like the leaders in healthcare that have been successful at moving the needle are the ones like you that decide on a vertical and they just stay hyper focus. Now I know you like the kid around about hey you know I got a short attention span. But the thing that you've done so well Jeffrey is honed in to your area of specialty. And I just love that you've done that and that's why you've gotten the results you've gotten. I love if you could just share with the listeners how you've created results and maybe some examples through one of your companies or your lab.

Yeah sure. You know it all really starts when I started with patients and just as you go through your surgical training in my case you kind of have this illusion if you become very well trained you're going to be able to solve most of the problems for the patients that come into your office. And as you go through your training you realize there's just a lot of things that we really can't even address. There's a lot of things that aren't evidence base that we do to patients. And there's all these unintended consequences downstream and so my whole point of evolution has been relatively organic starting with "How can I do a better job for patients?" and then at a certain point you realize what we have to come up with new approaches for some of these things and that we do to the laboratory and you get to a certain point in your in the laboratory and actually that's where I was in 2005 when I was a professor at NYU and I had Art in Manhattan and had all these things that I thought were good ideas. I couldn't figure out how to get them into the real world. It just wasn't. It's not what Manhattan New York City is known for. It's not yet that time there was certainly not a med tech startup culture critical mass. I moved to Stanford figuring you know one place on the planet really knows how to innovate it's probably this area and realized pretty quickly that know all my great ideas were actually not very good ideas and they were certainly they were not good businesses in any case I learn that that final piece of what makes the idea, a good business and how it can have all the stars align and so it's just been you know unfortunately kind of just dogged persistence trying to figure out how to make a difference and how to advance the field of medicine that really has as kind of always motivated me. And you know I think again if you have that as your primary focus then I think it makes it easy to do things that maybe don't make a lot of sense like going out and you know as a surgeon and pitching ideas on Sand Hill Road to venture capitalists. That's actually how you learn. You learn by realizing that what you thought were ideas weren't good ideas. More importantly like what is a good idea and not in a vat. And then you can move forward. So you know it's a very simple motivation for me at least and that has kind of ended up you know there was never a strategic plan that I wanted to be an entrepreneur and became an entrepreneur out of necessity because that was the only way that I could see things that might impact patient care getting into the real world.

Now it's a winding road you know and it's pretty cool that you've taken it. You've been persistent with that and resilient for that matter and if you had to boil it down to the essence of what does make a good idea good business. What would you say the 1 or 2 things are?

I think you know for sure it has to me. For me at least it has to mean an unmet clinical need. I think there are arguably good businesses that are need two sorts of things. You know again you know we see it now we're kind of the immunotherapy for cancer. I mean obviously a great idea but if you don't really have the lens of a physician that's a great business. So now everybody is flowing into that sector but there's all these other areas of you know unmet clinical need that don't have investment and so trying to keep your eye on what you know and so as you alluded to I kind of focused on surgery reconstructive surgery plastic surgery as I know that area. You just have to find different ways to innovate. So I think remaining focused on the unmet clinical need believing you know I think the second piece is really really really being sure that your data is rock solid. So it's always easy to fall in love with your ideas and kid yourself and that's just a waste of everyone's time and money because you don't want to spend six or seven years worth of technology that you were aren't pretty sure it's going to work in the real world. And then I think being persistent and creative there's many paths to the top of the mountain and figuring out which way to go when you're not in the hottest sector, you're not in immunotherapy for answer. How do you foster innovation in those areas. I think sometimes requires just dogged persistence.

I think it's true and that's something that's hugely valuable and you as a leader Geoffrey and for the listeners that are in the middle of this process meaning to innovate to get their companies ahead to help patients to improve outcomes that dogged persistence is so key in what you're doing and take some inspiration from Geoffrey and his winding road and what you're doing it doesn't happen overnight. You've got to stay with it for the entire course. Geoffrey, you know just speaking of winding roads I feel like we learn a lot more from our setbacks than our successes. Can you share a setback that you had and what you learned from that particular setback?

Sure yes. But ten years ago started a company that was based on. Again you know really exciting technology that we've developed in our laboratory and it is really focused on novel ways to connect blood vessels. So that's mnemonic technologies and those kind of a classic example of that you know saying is, "It's not what you don't know that tricks up it's what you know for sure that just ain't so". As Mark Twain said and that we went into it with the knowledge that there were lots of it was a way to glue things to get real hallow tubes together. We went into it with the knowledge that there were lots of FDA approved adhesives on the market that were being used clinically and yet indications that we want to go into they were commercially available and so we assumed that the thing we didn't need to innovate on was the adhesive piece. And as we went in our core technology that enabled the using of adhesive to connect 2 hollow tubes worked extremely well. I mean it works great. What we found was that for certain applications these adhesives were really not good are not great they weren't perfect. They certainly weren't adequate for anastomosis. So you know that was kind of a real eye opener that you really need to question all assumptions. And again these were things that again had gone through FDA approval had multiple publications. And as you kind of get into the weeds of how does this actually work in patients realize that these were imperfect things and if we had known that ahead of time we would have certainly saved ourselves you know a lot of time and it would have changed kind of our assessment of the value proposition and also the risks of that thing. And so you know now as I look at projects I obviously look at every assumption not just the ones that incur risks.

No, that's such a great call-out. You know and there are a lot of things that we could get into and we assume and I think it's a great call-out. And I love the quote that you shared. It's what you know for sure. That is so that it really isn't us. I love that. And that was Mark Twain right?

Yup.

What a great quote. I'm gonna definitely have to look that one up after this and keep it in my in my quote arsenal. Because it's so true and a lot of and a lot of us in healthcare well and we mean well and we work hard and we're focused. Don't let these assumptions ruin your work. And the benefit that you could be providing the patients. Thanks for sharing that that's really insightful Geoffrey.

I'm sure. Yeah. And I think it's corollary is kind of why arrogance I think is a real, real negative for people that want to innovate because again assume that you know you know things are your confident you know things that I think you really have to have that can a learner's beginner's mind at all times to avoid essentially you know stepping into a pothole.

Love it. That's so true. So you walked us through sort of the some of the shadows with that company. Talk to us about one of the proudest leadership moments you've had to date.

Yes. So one of our one of my companies is Neodyne Biosciences and it's started actually when I was an intern at Mass General while working at the Boston Shriners Hospital in the 90s. Take care and burn patients and just realize again that was a situation where all the care is free. All technology was available and you just realized that these kids who had these terrible burns that literally were skin deep we could keep them alive. But you know their lives were immeasurably changed irreversibly changed just from that one moment. And there was nothing I could do as a surgeon. There is no technology that was out there that could change that. And so that kind of we embarked on a lifelong kind of project understand fibrosis and scar formation and really has been the focus of our laboratory. And you know one of the companies spun out of based on our understanding of one of the key determinants as a surgeon we know that mechanical forces are critically important in how a scar heals. We learn about these lines of minimal tension we're taught to orient our incisions so that they don't cross or that they are parallel to those lines with the clinical kind of anecdote that your scars will be better if you do that. And so there's you know again that that kind of thing that again was outside of surgical disciplines was not well embraced certainly when we started working on the mechanical environment how it changed fibrosis and scar formation. And to test that you know we actually did a human clinical trial with a little device that actually changed the mechanical environment and used incisions in humans and found that you could decrease the scar formation about you know 90 percent. Based on that. And originally we were just going to go and start screening drugs. But someone said Hey why don't we. We could use this device and people can make their c section scars or their knee replacement scars better and so we started a company that is Neodyne Biosciences is now and has treated basically using the experimental device it's now much slicker and has branding and all the rest of the stuff you need for commercial device. But it's true that 50000 patients are Serena Williams as kind of our our celebrity endorser. And you know it has made this reading those kind of testimonials on real self or different kind of social platforms seen how many different patients you know women who've had c sections and things like that is very gratifying and that's something that you kind of developed in your laboratory know has an impact on so many patients. But the journey is not over because obviously we feel that those sorts of devices don't help to earn patients and so we're now actually doing the thing with you know small molecules to block fibrosis for burns and so it's kind of again very gratifying that something where you saw an unmet need can impact and chip away out of it. And hopefully you know that pursue your career really change the game for fibrosis and scarring in a variety of different disease states.

What a great story Geoffrey. And it kind of all goes back to that beginning where you sort of you called it an illusion that you get the best training and you're going to be able to solve everything, you get out and you realize that that really isn't so. And sort of that that's the genesis of all the wonderful things that you've done and now you've uncovered a lot of Pathways to help this reconstructive scarring area. And you as you work to identify a solution for those kids with the Burn Burn kids. You're finding other things and you're sticking with your pursuit to find that need. What keeps you going man. Like what is it that that keeps you in the game. Because you could have given up a long time ago?

I just I think it's I mean I think that's why for me at least it's important for me to keep doing clinical medicine at some level and by far not the busiest surgeon but I still do surgery I still see patients and I think it just kind of rubs your nose in kind of how little we know every day. And for me it's those patients and just how do you move the ball down the field. How do we make things better. How you know in a hundred years how will medicine be different and hopefully better. I mean I expect it will be better through people just you know making incremental improvements all over the place. And I think now a lot of times especially as healthcare has become its own industry we can't put our blinders on and just go about our viewed generation or about this robot that are gaming the Preski any sister or whatever it is. And I think what you lose are what sometimes is lost is that holistic approach of hey we're trying to help one patient at a time by doing that we're going to advance medicine and by doing that, the world's going to be a better place. And so I think it's very I don't know exciting to be a part of. And you know just really for me it's I can't imagine not doing that I don't know when I would be that would have anywhere near the interest or urgency or meaning for lack of a better word than doing that and being part of that struggle and part of that that effort.

Now for sure. I appreciate you sharing that. Yeah it's definitely true, right? Listeners, we're in this together and there's no one person is going to be able to solve all of healthcare's problems. So think of it as as a collective work and keep yourself in the game. You're not the only one struggling to get these solutions out there. You have other Brethren and sisters out there doing the work like Dr. Geoffrey Gurtner. So tell us about an exciting project our focus that you're working on today Jeffrey?

Sure. You know again we're not only working on the process of fibrosis and scar formation but we're working on the the flip side of that coin which is you know core healing like in diabetes and aging and so we have lots of really interesting projects in the laboratory at Stanford we're fortunate enough that started a large clinical trials unit and our wound care center where we're actually able you know very rapidly. Look at what works and try to you know bring in an ethical responsible way bring new treatments to the market. So we're very excited about you know one of our projects that potentially can prevent wounds from occurring not just heal them faster and so we're we're gearing up for kind of initial clinical experience but that's you know I think an exciting and exciting effort and you know is kind of the flip side of the fibrosis and scar formation issue.

Fascinating love that you're super focused on that and you know what. I know that your work will continue to yield benefits to patients that need it so keep up the awesome work. Getting close to the end here. Geoffrey, let's pretend you and I are building a healthcare leadership course on what it takes to be successful in medicine today. The 101 of Dr. Geoffrey Gurtner we're in our right at a syllabus. I've got four questions for you. Lightning round style and then will conclude the syllabus with a book that you recommend for the listeners, you ready?

Yup.

What's the best way to improve healthcare outcomes?

I think to always keep your eye on the big picture of we're in this to advance the care of an individual patient and to progress medicine?

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

I think expecting the future to be like the past to expect good things that worked in the 80s and 90s are going to be the way the health care system broadly writ is going to be for the next 50 years.

How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

I think it started off by talking about the inertia and the friction that exists in virtually every vertical and horizontally across the whole system and I think although it's difficult to be nimble to always try to be nimble and have one of your aspirational goals to be nimble and you know rapidly changing organization that is not a hold into the past. And you know legacy sorts of systems.

Love that. What's one area of focus that should drive everything in a health care organization?

I think the patient you know just always whether you're a scientist, whether you're a practitioner, whether you're an executive thinking about improving the care of patients either by developing new technologies by providing the existing evidence base standard of care in the most efficient way possible. I think making a patient. I think sometimes we get tripped up with the you know the different billing in compliance and everything else. I think that patients should always be front of mind for every one.

Love that. What book would you recommend to the listeners?

So it's kind of an old one and I actually just had my 15 year old son read it and he responded well to and I thought he might just say boy this is really really outdated. So Zen and the art motorcycle maintenance is I think a great book because it kind of on the one hand is very very pragmatic it's the story of a father and son. And he expands from that sort of story into the big philosophical questions that have that humanity is pondered since antiquity of what is the meaningful life. What's the good life and you know at a really high level. So for me it's if you kind of are looking for meaning and that has practical implications I think it's a great book.

Love that recommendation. Folks if you want to get all of the transcripts, shownotes, links to the book, Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance and all the other things that we discussed today just go to outcomesrocket.health/gurtner, G U R T N E R, and you'll find all that there. Geoffrey, this has been a blast I've really enjoyed the conversation. I'd love if you could just share a closing thought. And then the best place for the listeners could follow you or get in touch with you.

So I think you just always keep the patient in mind whenever you do and be persistent and avoid arrogance not because arrogance is a bad thing. Arrogance is impedes your ability to be successful. And I'm on LinkedIn and Twitter and Facebook. So just as Geoffrey, G E O F F R E Y, Gurtner, G U R T N E R, and happy to continue in the conversation.

Love it Geoffrey. Hey this has been a pleasure. Appreciate you carving out some time with us and looking forward to staying in touch.

Thanks again for interviewing me. Appreciate it.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Recommended Book:

Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance: An Inquiry into Values

Best Way to Contact Geoffrey:

LinkedIn: Geoffrey Gurtner

Twitter: @GeoffreyGurtner

Facebook: Geoffrey C. Gurtner

Episode Sponsor:

Choosing Turn-Key Biomarkers and Data to Treat Patients Better with Sathya Elumalai, CEO & Co-founder at Multisensor Diagnostics

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. Today I have a very special guest for you. His name is Sathya Elumalai. He's the CEO and co-founder at Multicenter diagnostics. Mr. Elamalai is an MBA and M.S. co-founder at the CEO for multisensory diagnostics. As I told you he's got over 14 years of experience leading product development, program management, performance improvement and new business development at MDX which is a company that he's currently leading. He's responsible for the overall product and technology development initiatives, investor relationships and has established a successful business partnership with key telehealth providers and health plans. Before joining MDX, Mr. Elumalai served as head of business development at the healthcare data analytics firm responsible for managing a one hundred forty eight million dollar predictive analytics product and implementing improvements for health insurance plans. As you could see he's very dialed into the data aspect of healthcare which is an area that we need to start paying more attention to as we turn the corner on value based care and start making decisions to impact organizations and even our employees. So it's with that that I extend a very warm welcome to Sathya. welcome to the podcast my friend.

Good afternoon. How are you.

Hey doing really well. Glad we could finally connect.

Thank you. And first of all I really thank you for this great opportunity and I think that's a great overview and I'm really looking forward to tell you more about what other things that I've done.

Yeah. Looking forward to learning so. Is there anything that I miss Satya in that introduction that maybe you want to share with the listeners.

Yeah definitely my background has been doing a lot of different things. I started off being a biomedical engineer. Like building solutions to help human lives and then I have three Masters. Everything in health care. But more importantly I spent over ten years at Johns Hopkins which is really the foundation of my health care journey. And I work closely with the providers patients and caregivers to really help them with the patients safety, satisfaction, quality improve. And I also work with several startup companies commercializing new technologies. But overall we have been or been primarily focused on bringing in cutting edge next generation technologies into healthcare and simplifying health care for patient that need.

Sathya, at the bottom line I mean that's a very noble focus that a lot of the listeners are also focused on you know improving outcomes making the entire process better. What do you think should be at the center of our listeners minds on their agenda today and what's that hot topic. What do you think there needs to be?

I think oftentimes everybody's talking about today least talking about AI and machine learning predictive analytics and all those different things but most importantly I think patient-centered care and personalized care is much more that is needed at this point of time and that's something which have been integral to my success or my journey in healthcare. And I think that's where we need to focus on having patients in the design and development of their own healthcare.

So walk us through that. What does that look like and maybe an example of how you guys are doing that at your current firm?

Exactly. So multisensory diagnostics we are chronic disease management company or you can call a digital health company with a device at the center where a lot of people are delivering care today using a more patient monitoring either like an home visit or through technologies mostly like individual devices or a group of devices that are specific to patients and their health care or help needs and everybody is taking them more individual disease specific efforts or using individual parameters to really identify what's happening with the patients. For example heart failure the standard of care is still a scale that people are using to measure the patients outcome or identifying deterioration patient's condition. But there are more to the disease. It's a complex disease which involves both cardiovascular and pulmonary issues. So that's where what we're doing is Multisensor is we have developed a non-invasive rapid medical assessment device called Multilab that can measure more than ten vital health parameters in 30 seconds non invasively so that all patients have to do is simply pick up our handheld device put it in their mouth and breathe through normally for 30 seconds and they put it back and they are done for the day. So this is a technology that is integrated into the life flow of the user without them having to deal with complex devices or apps or even a tablet because for example I always use my mom as a center because the reason for me to start Multisensor or to be into doing what I'm doing today is because of my mom and her multiple chronic conditions. So can I do something to help communicate what's happening with her health with her physician. So that's what brought us to build this device of love to tell you more about it.

That's fascinating. And listeners if you go to multisensordiagnostics.com. Right there on the landing page you'll see that device. It's a very elegant very small device used to capture all this data that Sathya just walked us through. It's super interesting Saadia you know. You're right. We're dealing with the main standard I guess the gold standard is weight using the scale. But there's a lot more. So tell us a little bit more about this device and how exactly you're gathering this data?

So basically what we wanted to do is to find one area or one region in the body where we can collect a lot of health information. So that's when my co-founder Dr. Gene Friedman. He's a professor at Johns Hopkins and me we working on finding a location and then he really is a mouth is a rich source of a lot of biomolecules or biomarkers or associated with health because it has access to breath and saliva which in turn gives access to many biological indicators of health. So we started there and we didn't want to just use or directly go into the bichemical analysis piece but what else can we do with we have the lips you're holding the device with your hands. So you are you have access to a lot of information from your hand. So we are collecting all these different physiological parameters from your breath, saliva, mucous membranes, blood vessels and the mucous membrane and also from your hand. So today we are measuring temperature, blood pressure, ECG, oxygen saturation, pulse rate, respiratory rate, respiratory pattern or breathing pattern Hatari variability hydration and parametric lung functions. These are all integral to managing a chronic condition like anything from COPD, heart failure to even certain forms of cancers where these are key parameters that a lot of people would love to have it but because they need to go to five or six different devices to get all these things. So no they are not doing it today we are presenting one device that is as simple to use as a electric toothbrush. Somebody told me or your devices idiot proof. I think that's kind of true because we want everyone from 9 to 90 plus to use it without any training or assistance or having accessories or a tablet to kind of play a Bluetooth. And most of the every data that we collecting from the device is sent via 4G using our universal IoT technology. So you don't even have to have a tablet if you don't have one. It's much easier you can use this device in any part of the world at any time. So we're actually it's like a check engine light for humans.

Love it. Great analogies here Sathya. So you guys have this fascinating pathway for health care organizations, providers, payers you name it decisions even you know local physicians to gather data from patients. Tell us a little bit about some of the results that you've had.

So at this point basically we rebuilt the first version of our device and we are ready to start a large scale pilot study at Hopkins. Our studies that we did before was with our first version of our device. In fact this device has been under development for almost 10 years because it has got so many information from that. I mean even just the other form factor was went through a lot of changes because it needs to be specific and it needs to be catered towards entire demographic. So today the data that we collected from our first version was really helpful in terms of understanding what the design and also what other things can be added to our device. And we also published a paper from that study at Hopkins. It's a randomized human study with more than 50 patients. It's called Mahd lab a tricorder concept optimized for rapid medical assessment so that tells you more about what we wanted to do and then the data is really accurate to the gold standard devices. Now we are moving in two words finalizing our technology device and taking it to the FDA.

Fascinating and Sathya appreciate you walking us through that as the listeners take this in and part of the thing that we do here on the outcomes rocket is you know we connect. We bring people together so as as folks are listening who out there can help you? How can you help them? What kind of collaboration going happen right now?

So one thing with our device it's it's a blessing as well as a challenge is it can apply to a wide variety of settings and a lot of different stakeholders are very interested in using this device because we are talking to these eight top health systems right now and you're working with seven of the top 10 pharma companies. The challenges not going to the peers yet they are the ones who are going to get most value out of our device and technology. So we'd love to connect with peers and also more importantly looking for working with advocacy groups. Right now we have great support from the COPD Foundation, as well as the American Heart Association. But what we're looking for is it's a device and technology not just for the patients but for the caregivers. So we would love to hear from caregivers and also from our perspective as I said it has a wide application and it's also a challenge. So we would love to connect with like minded people who wanted to really use our device to make an impact in whatever efforts they're doing in healthcare because we don't see anyone as a competitor. But we would love to work with even our competitors if it's going to help them to reach our customers or consumers early.

That's outstanding. So listeners they have it. If you fall into the category of those folks that Saati is looking for: a caregiver, payer, folks interested in the spot check devices - please reach out. At the end of the podcast Sathya will give you the best way to get in touch with him as well as check out his episode through the outcomes rocket website. There's always a way for you to get in touch with guests and in particular on this round, Shathya. So Sathya you guys are making some big progress here. Can you share a moment when you guys had a major setback and what did you learn from that setback?

Yeah certainly I think as being an entrepreneur there's more setbacks than successes. So basically I think the one incident where or in terms of even our device we developed it because we wanted a device that fits into my system or into my cofounder and how likely it is and how we enjoy using it or what is the impact that is creating. But we kind of forgot that the end user the consumer and the patients whether they can use it and can it be applied to a range of population who can use it and not just one set of people. So when we design we basically put in our mouth piece in such a way that we liked it and then the mobile interface was connected via Bluetooth where we felt like the bluetooth as a standard like everybody is using it. And let's put that in and then we expected that like somebody was a 70 plus I don't like my grandma still uses an iPhone so she could be able to use it. So.

Yeah.

That's what we thought about that. And then we put we started with all these basic things but what we learned from that process and with all 100 patient user feedback study and human factor engineering study that we did. We realized that we're going to lose patients after a few days or weeks if it's going to be complicated and if it's going to be uncomfortable. So we should of had patients before we actually designed it. But oftentimes that's not always possible. So that's where what we decided to have is let's have patients and caregivers throughout the care and then the product development journey. So today in addition to business and clinical advisory board we also have a patient and caregiver Advisory Board which is unheard of. So we have people who are patients caregivers and also like providers sitting there and telling us what we really need to do and how we need to design a solution that can improve adherence. Today as I told you it's simpler than brushing your teeth. And that's where what we have done is to pair one habit that another habit by providing this device right next to your brush. You get a you brush your teeth and then then you go pick up this device read into it for 30 seconds put it back and you're done. So you don't have to do anything more than that. And this change of putting in an IoT technology for 4G communication significantly improved the patient adherence because now patients don't have to bring in their smartphone or tablet to connect via Bluetooth.

There's no setup.

No there's no set up. All you have to do is they plug in a charger and then put it in an even a single charge can take up to 20 days of you can just use it for almost 20 days without a charge. So you can travel with it so it's easier. So anything that one additional step that is needed to use your product, people are going to use it. So that's what is a key lesson that we learned is to design something and have the users all as part of your decision making process.

Such a great lesson, Sathya. I feel like a lot of entrepreneurs fall into this trap of designing their dream product without having that feedback loop of their end user. I love that you institutionalize this lesson to your firm and now you have a Caregiver Advisory Board which is awesome man. Congrats on making that an institutional priority for you guys.

No certainly I would love to have every other company you have at least one or two person with a caregiver or a patient to be continuously part of even a weekly call. Just listen to it. There are people there who wanted to make a difference. And I was still part of the Corie patient centered outcomes research institute that has hundreds of thousands of patients and users and caregivers interested in helping in all these different initiatives bring them in have them part of your product development. It will make wonders for your company.

That's awesome. Now tell us about a great moment something that you're so proud of in your in your medical career to date.

There were a lot of moments especially the one where at Hopkins I was able to do like a large scale study where I was able to convince more than 150 top performing hospitals in the country to come together to disseminate their best practices. So I started off thinking about why one hospital is doing great. And then the hospital just 10 feet away from that house. I mean there are hospitals like a Texas medical center. Like you have like hospitals right next to each other. So why there is huge discrepancies when it comes to providing care and forget about the cost but even though the quality of care there's a huge difference I mean based on the headsets reading. So for me I really wanted to know will these people share the information. And oftentimes everyone disappointed like or discouraged me really to say nobody is going to share because it's proprietary. People wanted to stay up and then always on the top. Yes I was able to prove them wrong because I individually reached out to every single top performing hospitals based on three or four years of head scores under each domain of headscarves and pretty much 80 to 90 hospitals actually came for national conference at orphanages and almost 130 hospitals participated in the study. And we also published data or paper from that effort. So today I learned that people are willing to share. But we need the platform. We need a tool or technology to ensure that all the data that is presented are just translated to patient care and not just used for a consulting project.

Now well congratulations on that. It's definitely not easy to do. You picked up the phone and you got to it. And folks this is something that we all need to take a note of when everybody else is telling you now and you believe that there is a way to do it. What Sathya did pick up the phone. Get back to the basics and you'll find that it's amazing what you find on the other end of that line like Sathya did. Now is that paper available for anybody to read, Sathya?

Yeah absolutely. I mean I can put it in my linkin, I'm happy to share with anyone who can reach out to me my e-mail address is selumalai@multisensorydiagnostics.com. You can also find me on our Web page at multisensorydiagnostics.com.

Awesome. So folks they have it. We're going to be able to share that paper with you. Why not. Take a look at this amazing work that Sathya did to gather to these best minds, best outcomes together under one roof and produce a paper get access to that reach out to him. Sathya, getting close to the end of the podcast here. You're obviously working on some very outstanding projects here with multicenter diagnostics. Let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in medicine today. It's the 101 Sathya and so we're going to build a syllabus here. Four questio

ns lightning round style followed by a book that you recommend to the listeners. You ready?

Yes.

Awesome. What's the best way to improve health care outcomes?

Definitely engaging patients throughout the design and development of healthcare. It's not similar. Even here at multisensory not building a consumer gadget that is going to really use to help you to show your steps or something but more importantly it's going to engage the patients and the users so that they can be empowered. So I would say patient engagement is key.

Love it. What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

As I told you earlier like thinking that you know everything about what you're building and what you're providing to the consumers. I don't believe that swiping left or right on a phone app or just using a device and then sending that one data is going to improve adherence. But I think it's important that you need to say what is the real need of users and also bringing in the right technologies to support them.

How do you stay relevant despite constant change?

Talking to patients talking to users on again a lot of conferences and being part of the Koreas been a huge advantage to really seat there on huge stakeholders from patients providers and policymakers. So have been really integral to our part of it as well.

Fascinating. And what's one area that should drive everything in a health care organization?

I would say more importantly what the. Not just the what the end user ones. But as a customer you have the payers, providers the pharma. We also need to take into consideration that what is their needs are and always why, whe,n how. Those are key things that somebody needs to understand and put into practice.

What book would you recommend to the listeners, Sathya?

So since we had our candidates and more on patient centered care and patient focus care I would say there's one book by Susan Framton on putting patients first best practices and patient centered care which is a great book for somebody who is into health care into their entrepreneurship life. It is a great book to start with. There are other great ones on other topics but I love this one.

Outstanding Sathya, thank you for that. And folks if you want to get access to this syllabus that we just created for you the transcripts, show notes and links that we've discussed discuss the outcomesrocket.health/Sathya. You find that his LinkedIn profile will be there as well as a way to get that paper that that he discussed here on the podcast. So Sathya, this has been a blast. Before we conclude I love if you could just share a closing thought with the listeners and then the best place where they can get in touch with you.

Absolutely. Well thank you again. I mean the one thing that I really wanted to say is I want every entrepreneur or even healthcare organizations to create something that is not complicated for this vulnerable population. Create a solution that is very simple to use something that can integrate into the life flow of the users and try to see what other things that they can do to close the gap in healthcare look specifically patient gap and I really urge everyone to join us. So let's change the culture of care monitoring. Let's change the standard of care. It's not going to be tough. All we need is the right people to be at the right time to do the right thing. So our mission of the company is to change the culture of care monitoring. And I want each and every one of you who is listening to this podcast who believe in our technology who believe in bringing patient centered care to join us even if you're our competitor as I said and talked to us let us find a way to work together to help make a difference in health care. You can reach me at my email address selumalai@multisensorydiagnostics.com. Our website is a great resource. You can also follow us on Twitter at mouthlab and also reach me on LinkedIn. I would love to connect with you guys. Thank you again for the invitation. This has been a great conversation and you made everything what I said looks so awesome.

Hey Sathya. Thank you for making the time for us. You my friend are the awesome man and we're super super glad that you're able to join us so looking forward to staying in touch with you.

Great. Absolutely. Thank you.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Recommended Book:

Putting Patients First: Best Practices in Patient-Centered Care

Best Way to Contact Sathya:

LinkedIn: Sathya Elumalai

Mentioned Link:

https://www.multisensordiagnostics.com/

Sponsor Episode:

Why 3D Human Imaging Will Save Lives and Dollars in the New Healthcare Economy with Aaron Oliker, Cofounder, BioDigital Inc.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. As the time change we have to consider many different options to tackle the problems that we're faced with in health care and resources dwindle. We've got to look at other options that's why today I'm so excited to introduce our guest. His name is Aaron Oliker. He's a co-founder at Biodigital Inc.. Aaron is an entrepreneur, 3D animator, programmer and academic working in the field of medical visualization and 3D simulation. Aaron founded his first medical visualization company called Cyber fiber incorporated in 2000. He's got over a decade of experience close to two decades of experience in this area. And so I'm privileged to really highlight some of Aaron's work here with him. He's been a pioneer in a new paradigm in the field of medical and surgical education. His current focus is the advancement of new features and applications using the bio digital human platform. And it's a thrill to be able to welcome you to the podcast Aaron. Glad you could join us.

Thank you. It's a real pleasure and honor to be here. I can't believe it's been two decades in the field but things are evolving and I'm very happy to have this opportunity to speak with you.

It's a pleasure. And Aaron you know you are a pioneer. You've been in this before it was even a popular thing to do. And now companies are starting to look at 3-D visualization as a true option for doing more with less. What is it that's kept you in the game for so long?

I think the game is always evolving as you say things are getting cheaper. Technology keeps improving and I'm I'm such a techno nerd and an anatomy nerd and these are the things I really love. And I wake up I can do it whenever it's like a videogame game to me but it helps people so I just love the tech and I love the fact that we're doing something positive that improves a person's health. So that's just my motivating factor I guess for us to keep doing it it's just selfish enjoyment at the most basic level.

That's awesome. And listeners if there's a partner they want to work with somebody that is willing to do what they do for fun for their own reasons that just tend to dovetail into what you're doing. Biodigitals their team over there Aaron and his team have had the privilege of working with some of the largest organizations in health care including Boston Scientific, Novartis, GlaxoSmithKline just to name a few and so I always loved to understand the genesis of it all. Aaron I know you love this stuff but what is it that got you into health care to begin with?

I think the most basic level for me again is you know my sister was a physician and she actually got she had. And that's when she was about 27 years old. She is a resident. And I was a 3D animator at the time just starting out learning myself. I'm a little younger than her. And just to see her get sick and all these things and all these questions that came up in our minds. I said I wanted to do something in healthcare with my ability in 3D. And that's kind of what led me on this path. I got very lucky and I met a surgeon who wanted to do animations and it turned out that I was the first surgical animation that was ever done. We started our work at NYU in 1999 for a charity called Smile Train.

Amazing.

And that was the very beginning of my work in this industry.

Super cool man. And Aaron, you know I'm a firm believer that coincidence. I don't know if there's such a thing. You know when you're when you're properly aligned and focused. These things do tend to happen. Now you've been in this business for 20 years. What do you think a hot topic that needs to be on every medical leaders agenda today is and how are you guys approaching it at Biodigital?

So I think the real hot topic right now that's on people's agenda is what's going on with augmented reality and virtual reality and how that's affecting on medicine and for a special device companies, pharmaceutical companies, hospitals. I just came from a conference in Berlin a medical executive leadership conference for pharma and device and I did a presentation on what the direction of augmented reality is in medicine and it seems to be something that's very interesting to a lot of the big companies out there everybody including the institutions as well. A lot of people really want to understand where this is going. I feel like it's it's like the mobile technology of the early 2000s. And I think that's where it's going so I think that's the big hot topic right now. I think it's going to change a lot of things.

Now that's pretty interesting Aaron. And you know we've had several guests on the show come talk to us about augmented reality and virtual reality the applications being you know hey you know there's fellowship and resident training, there's company sales rep and clinical training, there's a lot of applications that that technology could be useful for can you take us down maybe what you think the top 2 or 3 areas that our listeners could apply this tool to?

Yeah definitely the education is number one. Education and communication. And that's basically what our product does. Just to take you back a couple that surprised the Biodigital human has is probably the biggest library of 3D interactive assets on the planet. We literally were building. We built out every nerve every vessel, every vein, every bone and what have you and we're building out every disease state and disease condition and you can interact with it in 3-D like we Guler to the human body. And what we're doing now with augmented reality is we're taking it into the real space like you use like a house like. Some people use it with like Pokemon and you're just overlaying something onto your field of view of a smartphone and you're just looking at something and there's like a filter there. But what we do is we use more advanced headset and you're able actually able to walk around and inspect and interact with the body at which is lifesize. So I think it's a game changer meaning where you can look at the body and go through a procedure and have a surgical view would have been impossible before unless you're in an OR or in a certain scenario. So I think it's great for education, for sales, I think it's it's also very powerful because it's something people haven't really seen done well before. And now you're able to see the body and look at it from any angle and look into it and it's like right in front of you like it would be if you were in an operating room or an exam table. So I think it is going to have a very powerful effect once it's in wide distribution with good equipment.

That's pretty awesome Erin. So as a customer whether it be institutional or even maybe an individual. Do you guys offer it to both just one or the other and how did they how do they access your platform.

Our platform is a cloud based platform. You can literally on any device you can go online. Just log in and have access to the entire human body and we've got pretty much any disease state or condition known to man and see it in 3D. And the same goes for mobile. So our platform is really device as an operating system agnostic. You should be able to access it from any device or any type of system you're using.

That's awesome and so as far as as users as institutional users only. And then in that you access it through your institution or can you get it as an individual too.

So my digital acumen is like I said before it's a cloud based platform so anyone can access it you can be a third grader and get on and explore the body.

Nice.

The really exciting thing about what we do is we integrate into other people's systems so we have an application programming interface and a software development kit. So if you're running a school or a student or something you can go on to Biodigital human and explore. Like you would like Google Maps.

Amazing.

And just like if you're like me and you're like an anatomy geek geek and you want to just just mess around and look you can look and look up everything you can see the beating heart and dissect the heart. I look up a bit. This is where you can hear in the way we work with device companies and clients is a lot of times they'll integrate our system into their website or they'll add their CAD files to our system and you can visualize how devices work inside the body. You can create a procedure for you so you can see a procedure step by step. You can see how the device affects the body. You can create air your pathways if you're a pharmaceutical client or a pharmaceutical, we go mechanism of action but it's interactive it's not just an animation and rotated. You can interact with it. You can test it you can test people on it and that's essentially how it's used where we use different types of configurations whether you're configuring for you know an MOD or you have a new device or you're doing training or something along those lines. We customize the system to whatever the client need is and they can disperse it internationally on all devices and in multiple languages for all the different users that target audience might be.

That's super powerful and super powerful. And to know that the base of the technology exists kind of like that like you said right the Google Earth for the human body. And then when companies or providers or anybody wants to make use of it they just go, reach out to you guys and then you guys find a way through API and SDKs or whatever get access to what you guys are doing to make it a playable to their particular needs?

Right. Very much so. And a lot of times what we want to do is make it cheaper and easier for people to get access. Like you said people have less resources and less time and things are always getting more demanding. So think of it like almost like a Lego set and you have all these different building blocks and so if you wanted to do something yourself you know you wanted the storyboard something or or just add a condition to a Web site. It's very easy just to come in and you know like a YouTube movie and you get embedded into a Web site or into a mobile application or you need something more complicated. We definitely do a lot of different complex projects for enterprise projects for the large institutions and organizations.

That is outstanding. Now you guys are doing a lot to improve outcomes in this way. Is there one particular thing that sticks out Aaron as something that has been just amazing that you guys have accomplished?

Yeah you know there were several great projects that we've worked on in a couple come to mind. One is the outcome health project. You know it's wallboards that people use that point of care for patient education and essentially what happens with these Walboards that in doctors offices and doctors to the patients. And right now that technology was embedded into 50000, 50000 doctors offices around the country. It's not just that one client but several different clients that yes you add to that in that capacity and you hear the testimonials and it's amazing. So better to think of it as a point of care application. A 3-D technology is very powerful because the better you can communicate with your patient population and they really truly understand what you're saying the more likely it is for them to take that advice and regimen to heart. So you're going to get better patients because they really understand why the why they should. They're not just talking at the patient they're talking to the patient in a way that the patient understands and that it's extremely powerful. So for a point of care we find this is one of the most powerful usages of our technology to really connect with the patient alleviate their anxiety, to really communicate them about what's happening inside their body in a way that's very quick and easy to understand really efficient and something that can affect their behavior which is probably the most important part.

Now at super critical and for those of you listening that are providers looking for ideas to take your practice and outcomes to the next level. Think this is a really great education and communication tool as as Aaron described it to help patients really understand and level set with providers at the point of care. Aaron how about on the other side of this. Have you had a setback in your journey. And what did you learn from that setback that you could share with the listeners?

Oh there's there's always a setback. Many setbacks. I think one of the biggest things that I can say is it's just before we had a platform we really did a lot of one off projects that were very expensive to create very expensive to maintain. And that's what led us to this. And I say it's a failure because it drove us to some difficult times because we we really needed was just so hard to maintain many different applications that were so. And we spread ourselves kind of thin as a result of that and what we did the positive thing as a result of this kind of failure to create a more consistent to have a system in at these one off projects is to create the digital platform was born out of that that failure to have a consistency where you're trying to reduce cut costs really and create something that that's very high quality for our clients and like easy to maintain. So the failure I guess was just not having that consistency in technology which is very difficult to do. It's a learning process I guess.

Yeah, so you guys went through the pain of having to figure this out going from individual projects that were expensive tough to maintain. And then you sort of hit this point in the road where you're like we've got to fix this and that's when the Biodigital platform was born. What is it that makes the Biodigital platform so I guess able to serve so many customers. Because you guys serve a ton of customers.

It's the technological evolution that made it possible. In about 2000 when we wanted this to happen. We knew kind of struggling with the way the system was and in 2011 when she came out web G.L. like the graphics card because the games the graphics started improving in the computers and mobile technology really started improving in about 2011 web G.L. came out where he didn't need a plug in because before you have that the reason you have to maintain all these different graphics cards and all these different things and the big companies like Apple like Google and Firefox got behind putting 3D in a browser. And so what that allows us to do was just focus focus on delivering 3D. Like you didn't have to download anything you didn't have to have certain dry resolves whatever crazy stuff that happened a decade before and now because of that it was just say OK let's just focus on making awesome content. Let's just focus on making one really great engine and that's what we did. The more focused the more you can kind of narrow how much how many technical things you have to do the better the outcome is.

That's so cool. And I appreciate you walking us through that air and you know it's been an evolution and folks like I was telling you before you know if you're looking to partner with somebody in 3-D Aaron and his team literally have been around the block and back several times and they've seen an entire shift in our ability to access technology as it sits today even in the actual browser. So take a look at what they have to offer. Their Web site is biodigital.com. They've got some pretty cool demos available there. Aaron this has been a blast to walk through. If you had to say right now and one of the most exciting focus areas in your company is today what is that?

Yeah I think like I mentioned before the augmented reality in our expanding library what we're doing right now is very exciting. It's something that I'm leading and I'm really enjoying every minute of it just because you're taking something from a flat screen just like put things in the browser. Now you're taking it out of the computer and putting it into like a real space. And I think that it's super exciting and it's a real experience so I'm very excited where everything is headed on that front.

Yeah and let's just take it a little glimpse at the med device piece of this. You know folks if you're looking to use augmented reality, you buy yourself a pair of those glasses. Let's just say on the high end they cost you five six hundred bucks and you are able to provide your sales force, your clinical people with training from home. And they don't have to fly. You don't have to get them hotels. All of this is going to save a bundle with technologies like the one Aaron is talking to us about. So if you're not excited about this I think it's time to learn a little bit more because it is truly an exciting time and we're turning around the corner of some excellent efficiencies. And would you add anything else to that?

Yeah you know and not just at home but just like conferences people eat it up. It's really great just to run the sales and one of our med device clients that uses it was telling me that you know they really once you have that one of these headsets on their people they're not going to you're not going to run away that easily. You really get a good conversation going. So it really does lead to some good great conversations with prospects and whatnot if you're doing the sales on that conferences. So that's another great way to use for sales.

So awesome yes. So so many great applications so if you haven't started thinking about this I would add this question to your arsenal of potential problem solving questions. How can I use 3D how can I use augmented reality as part of a solution to my problem. So Aaron Timeflies and you're having fun getting close to the end here. Let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful business and medicine. The 101 of Aaron Oliker and so we're going to we're going to build a syllabus here for questions lightning round style followed by a better that you recommend to the listeners are you ready.

Yeah.

Awesome. What's the best way to improve healthcare outcomes.?

It's a safe focus. I think to have the best communication possible with your patients. And that means that really great communication if you can communicate well with your patients, if you can communicate well with the surgeons that you're training with your clinical staff, you're going to have great outcomes.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Spreading yourself too thin trying to do too much in too many areas. If you end up doing nothing well jack of all trades and a master of none. So I say it's really important to stay focused and to really master one thing at a time at the very least.

Love that. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite all the constant change?

You work really hard. You really have to stay on top of technology. You really have to stay on top of what's going on and have a great team. I think the other thing is just love what you do. It's sounds that kind of a corny cheesy thing to say but to really stay on top but to really work hard you got it. You got to enjoy it. So that would be my answer.

Love that. What's one area of focus Sessa drive everything in a health care company?

Outstanding experience for the end-user. I think the more you focus on creating a really fantastic experience. Easy to understand just intuitive and natural. I think you're going to be successful.

Love that. And finally Aaron what book would you recommend to our listeners?

A great book that I like. It's more of a business book right. It's Dog by Phil Knight the Nike story.

Love that. Oh yeah, oh man, it's so good.

Yeah. And you just listen to the struggles he goes so it's an incredible book and fun to read. I got a lot out of the in a couple of times.

Folks.

I recommend that book.

Great recommendation my Aaron there shoe dog by Phil Knight the founder of Nike. Incredible story inspiring. Much like Aaron's story and the path that he has taken and now where where his technology and him and his team are taking this so if you have any questions about today's interview, you can go to outcomesrocket.health/biodigital, B I O digital and you're going to be able to find all of the show notes the transcript as well as links to the resources discussed here today. Aaron if you can just leave us with a closing thought and then the best place where the listeners can get in touch with you.

Yeah my closing thought would be that it's a really exciting time in medicine and technology. All these different technologies are converging to create better experiences for education, for physicians. And it's just it's really a lot of fun. And if anybody wants to check out what's going out the body is like our system is constantly evolving, please check out the site. It's free to just get on in and look at it. So I highly recommend just going on and taking a look at some of the stuff we have to offer. I really appreciate that.

Outstanding Aaron. Absolutely. So take that call to action folks go to a biodigital.com and check out the platform that they're offering here. And again Aaron just want to thank you for carving out some time for us to discuss this innovation and we're excited to stay in touch with you.

It's a real pleasure thank you. The honor and a pleasure. Thank you so much.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Recommended Book:

Shoe Dog

Best Way to Contact Aaron:

LinkedIn: Aaron Oliker

Mentioned Link:

BioDigital Inc.

Episode Sponsor: