Designing Better Gene Therapies for Human Health with Liz Parrish, CEO at BioViva Sciences USA Inc.

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Designing Better Gene Therapies for Human Health with Liz Parrish, CEO at BioViva Sciences USA Inc.

Designing Better Gene Therapies for Human Health with Liz Parrish, CEO at BioViva Sciences USA Inc.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. Today I have Liz Parrish, the founder and CEO of BioViva Sciences USA. At BioViva, they're committed to extending healthy lifespans using gene therapy. Liz is a humanitarian entrepreneur, innovator and very dedicated to this space and it's a pleasure to have her on the podcast today. Liz, welcome.

Hey thanks. It's great to be here Saul. I'm really excited about this podcast.

Hey me too. And by the way thanks so much. I know you just got back from travel and so really appreciate you carving us into your busy schedule.

I'm sure well it's a pleasure. And if you can just bear with my slow moving mind my jetlag mind, we'll have a great conversation.

Hey well maybe it's a good opportunity for us to actually stay on pace with you because you definitely are a mover and shaker so did I miss anything in that intro that maybe you wanted to highlight for the listeners?

Oh no I think that that's fine. I think that I'm just the woman who wants to genetically engineer you and I guess you probably want to find out why.

We do. So folks we're going to be chatting about this topic - genetic engineering and so you're going to find this very very fascinating. Before we dig into those things, I did want to ask you Liz what got you into the medical sector to begin with?

Well you know from 2011 to 2013 I volunteered for a group that was trying to do education in the area of stem cells some stem cells had vastly lost their funding in the U.S. due to the Bush administration pulling funding because of embryonic stem cells. Then suddenly everyone thought that the work of stem cells was embryonic stem cells and didn't realize that most of the work as a stem cells meaning stem cells from your own body. And it gave me a great opportunity to see what was happening in this realm of regenerative medicine. You know the first real regenerative medicine that we could look at that was having some impact on human bodies in research in universities in the U.S. but also there were a lot of companies offshore the U.S. medical tourism type groups who are claiming to have really good effects. And so we were trying to sort out what would you need to actually build a database to show whether or not the offshore world was was working in humans. But in 2013 right when we were getting this project going I actually left the project because my son was diagnosed with Type 1 diabetes. And essentially our family became a client of the U.S. healthcare system and I was actually really disappointed with what I saw. I was happy with some things but I was really unhappy with other things and that was that things called experimental medicine were not used in humans that were dying. So I asked you know them if the healthcare workers and doctors at Children's Hospital if my son could have his pancreas biobank or if he could get stem cell injections and they said that's experimental medicine we don't do that. You should look around the hospital kids who are dying and your son has a manageable disease so be happy about that. Well I just couldn't be happy about that, I couldn't be happy that we let people die. When I was reading and research there was all this fantastic innovations. So I stepped out of the nonprofit and I stepped into business and trying to find cures for kids. I ran into what was headlong the direction I was going for anyway which was genetics and genetic cures and started looking at an aging population as a great testing zone for kids who were dying. Let's do this the most humane way we have over 100,000 people who die every day of aging diseases. Many of these diseases are similar to what's happening at the cellular level of childhood disease some of the childhood diseases. So why didn't we embark on the first big engineering program using terminally ill patients to step up and take advantage of a situation of experimental medicine and try to spearhead the future for humanity including themselves. And so that's kind of how it got started.

Yeah you know it's a great story and appreciate you sharing it Liz. Tough road to be faced with that a lot of Americans and a lot of people across the world are really faced with as well. So it's wonderful that you decided to take on the driver's seat of this. So it's taking you on a journey and you've you've made some progress. I'm really excited to jump into some of that progress through our discussion today. What would you say is a hot topic that you feel needs to be an every medical leaders agenda today and how are you and the BioViva team addressing it?

Well you know again it's genetics and gene therapy and I think that it what needs to be on the very forefront of everyone's mindset is translating this technology. In the 1970s you know we had some of our biggest advances in looking at genetics and since then of course we've taken that and we fine tuned it into drugs that actually work. So if you look at what's going on in gene therapy today one monogenic disease after a time has being knocked off the chart. A monogenic disease means there is one faulty gene and by just inserting a proper copy of that gene we have a healthy functioning people and for right now we think that these therapies might be a one treatment for a lifetime. We may find out different in 20 years but kids with boy in the bubble disease which is severe combined immunodeficiency sched are becoming cured today with one treatment can step out into the world and start to enjoy things. Haemophilia is becoming a disease of the past as well sickle cell anemia. There are several congenital blindness these are areas where we now are developing drugs that are one treatment maybe for a lifetime for patients so we need to look at the power of that technology and start to look at what's called complex disease so aging as a disease for instance. There's nine or 10 hallmarks of aging that happen as we age over time and if we can tackle those then we will die of the diseases like Alzheimer's, cancer and heart disease. That would be fantastic. Each one of those diseases is a trillion dollar sinks every year. So it's pretty important that we tackle those. We can also then tackle childhood disease in a very humane way with drugs that we know how they work by testing them and in other subjects and so I think that the translation of this medicine now that we know how powerful it is is the most important step forward at this point.

Yeah a really strong message and a clear pathway forward to get some of the solutions to patients. What would you say an example of what BioViva has done it to create better results better outcomes is?

We have now built a platform so it took us a couple of years. Sadly it was a winding road to realisation what we actually needed to do and what we needed to do is what the company was designed to do three years ago. So what we need to do is analyze patient data. What happens in patients when they take these therapeutics and actually do it in a wide panel not do the traditional regulatory route to approval type of data dynamics where you might hide a bunch of data and only seek for one endpoint does it affect this disease does it affect this disease. We need to look at multiple mortality rates and we need to look at a panel of biomarkers and data points and in genetics that actually points to whether these patients are getting healthier and where they're seeing improvements in their body and whether or not the company would like to of course build towards the ultimate combinatorial gene therapy. The multitude of genes that it will take to create a very homeostatic state for a human body where the body just stays in health for a long period of time and in order to do this we need to look at a multitude of genes. So what we've done is we've turned BioViva into a data analysis company where we just look at not as endpoints but we look at a bunch of data points of what happens when patients go offshore and take unregulated or regulated gene therapies. So we have a partner company it's called integrated health systems and they actually broker deals between patients and medical doctors who basically have no other choice. Maybe they are terminally ill and they've been sent home with no other option. And this gives them an opportunity to take part in studies that will expedite the use of therapeutics and how that's important is this isn't just a money endeavour. Actually everything is kept at the lowest cost possible. This is a multipronged approach you might think of it as a triangle. On one hand the patient the patient is an important part of the triangle it's one end of it. It gives them an option to try things when the medical system is given up and said we don't have anything else for you and you're going to hospice. The second area is the biotech company. We have a lot of really promising biotech companies out there that end up disappearing because they can't become profitable. There's no way to raise the amount of money they need and or they're bought out by big companies who may or may not choose to take their drug to the pivotal point of becoming a therapeutic. And the third area the last area is investors. If you look at drug discovery it's actually pretty surprising that anyone puts their money and investment into it any more it has a 94 percent failure rate and get through one of these regulatory areas could cost over a billion dollars. So when you're looking at an investor who wants to put in maybe a hundred million or half a million dollars. Their failure rate is massively designed against them. So if we can actually look at drugs before they hit the clinical trial path and we can show whether they work or not and where they work OK we could actually give investors the inside scoop on where to invest and what drugs to expedite for what case scenarios. So if I had a drug that looked really promising today and let's just say I went to the graveyard of where most drugs go to die which is Alzheimer's and I ran the drug I raised a billion dollars to run the drug and in patients their regulatory service but it failed because it only helped Alzheimer's patients mentally. What if it regenerated their kidneys. These are the kind of things that we need to know because we're looking at genes now that aren't just maybe supposed in certain disease states but that are actually running for regeneration in the human body. So that's one of the shifts in looking at diseases not just saying oh this gene is implicated. Well that's fine that gene is implicated there's a lot of genes implicated in disease but what genes actually drive regeneration and that's the paradigm shift that we're doing is we're looking at genes that prolong the life in animal models regenerate cells actually start to recoup the damage or actually maybe reverse the damage that's caused by aging and so when you start looking at that you're looking at drugs that have a multi-purpose down the road maybe will affect a multitude of multiple mortality sort of outcomes.

Yeah that's a really interesting perspective Liz. As these drugs fail billions of dollars out the window you said 93 percent failure rate. Why not take a look at the periphery of these intended results and see what regenerative traits can be found because there's a lot of things that could be potentially used to your point.

Yes. You know if you run a drug for one endpoint your likelihood of failing even if it's a really good drug becomes even more. So if we look at if we shift the paradigm to looking at genes.

Interesting

that actually concrete regeneration rather than maybe just beta amyloid plaques or some random downstream effect of a disease then you know our our likelihood of success is bigger. But then if we look at a bigger panel regeneration of the body then we start to roll into a bigger amount of success. And so it's just building from one success to another and getting better drugs through the regulatory service which they still need to go through. Regulations we're not trying to say that we shouldn't have regulated drugs we just patients who are in great need should have access to most anything that shows a benefit.

Yeah it's really great. Now you guys have you know you made a shift, you commented earlier that you shifted things over at the company to tap into the strengths and the core of what you guys were dedicated to. Can you share with the listeners a time when you had a setback and what you learned from that setback? I feel like in healthcare we all have them and we learn most from those setbacks. Can you share one of those?

Oh sure well I think that we've had a real winding road. We've had a multitude of setbacks and one of them is what created the paradigm shift that we did where we decided to look just at the data of patients rather than try to keep moving forward to talk to them. Government after government and try to figure out how to treat patients are self were a US company and we couldn't actually find a a promising legal route to treat patients ourselves and so there was a lot of time probably wasted in discussions and in trying to find loopholes to help patients which is seems absolutely absurd to even say that in really difficult to do that so our shift came when we realised that we actually needed partnerships that were not US companies that could help facilitate patients getting access to the technology and then us you know shifting gears to not directly treating patients but just analyzing the data and of course we hope to analyze the data of a multitude of offshore companies that are doing. We're basically focusing on our exclusive partners right now because when you're in business you have to look at where is the area of greatest need. I mean when you can just pick a company where you can just make a lot of money but I'm a humanitarian and I go for a really high risk high outcome projects you know project will affect the whole world. There are a lot harder to get to the end point. But if you're really blazing new territory and so in that blazing new territory you find that actually you have to do some traditional things and then you have to just shut off and stop listening to some of the areas some of the myths that we live by and those myths could be the things that people tell you that you can't do that be certain regulatory hurdles and things like that if you do things right I think that you can do a lot of things and when you do run into a wall like we did then you just have to be ready to pivot. You just can't give up. You've got to be ready to pivot and find your partnerships that can help you achieve what you need to do and I think that's what we did.

I think that's really great and courageous to the point of assumptions. Gosh you know one of my favorite sayings is "Assumptions - it's a s s you and me". It can make an ass out of you and me and it's so true right if we don't question these, we really won't be able to make those leaps that we're looking to make to improve outcomes.

Yeah and we really have to help society get over that. So what is a regulated drug. You know so if you look at the cocaine report and you look at the number of the treat the number the harm we actually have a lot of harmful drugs out there that people don't even question that they take that we have to kind of open the mindset and open the eyes to people not scare anybody but actually show them that there are other ways to develop therapeutics and get them to the regulatory system in an expedited route that will actually help millions of people much faster by using them sooner than some people would think that we should. And it's the whole mindset. It's the whole bioethics debate which is filled with unethical ideas that are drugs should be safe before it's used in humans and yet we have no safe drugs. We're all part of an experiment. People die every year taking their drugs as prescribed and we have to get over the mindset that we should just let people die rather than giving them access to experimental medicine. I mean it's such folly, it's such folly. And they're losing their biggest asset and we just should not let that happen. And so we have to be less risk adverse.

What would you say one of your proudest leadership moments in healthcare has been to date?

Oh I don't really celebrate that much I don't think we have that much to celebrate. I am a really much into the grinding of work sort of person but I guess if we had something that. If we had something that we did that I think had leadership that of course was bastardise in much of the media. It was that in 2015 we embarked on the first gene therapy against biological aging and complex disease. That was a big moment for us. I took I myself bleeding the company as the CEO thought it was the most ethical that I would take the combinatorial gene therapy and it was a telomerase inducer and myostatin inhibitor. So for the audience the telomerase inducer increases the length of the telomeres at the ends of the chromosomes which we think protecting the chromosome is one of our best bet of keeping people healthier longer. So as your cells divide as you get older those that telomeres are the ends of chromosomes get shorter and shorter and they get really damaged and we think that by keeping them long and keeps the cell youthful and that's been shown in research for over 10 years the other one was a myostatin inhibitor which pumps up your muscle mass. So it's considered a performance drug but it's actually a great therapeutic for an ageing population to increase their muscle mass and keep them active longer period of time running stairs keeping them from falling. And so we embarked on that in 2015 and I actually you know two days ago I'm proud to say I just got another telomere results back and my telomeres are a little bit longer. And that's great.

So you took it once?

Yeah you take it once we saw muscle increase in the muscles that were treated. We've seen telomere length increase, we've seen a reduction in C reactive proteins and for the basic listener those are a marker of inflammation and so might inflammation markers went way down my insulin sensitivity went way down which is great because that's something that gets worse as you age and makes it more likely that you'll get things like type 2 diabetes which we call metabolic disorder. So I think it was a time that we really took the lead and we said we want to be a company that gets behind the drugs that we want to have people take and we want to prove that they're safe and we're willing to take them ourselves. And that was great.

That sends a strong message.

Yeah. So we learned a lot from it. We had just enough money of investment at the time for to take one therapeutic and we did do preliminary blood work. We did do preliminary MRIs, we did do a preliminary telomere length testing that we didn't have the largest panel of biomarkers at the time because we were a very young company and we didn't really have the finances to do it but we followed it up and now we're we're hoping that now patients won't want to partake in those so we can actually get a better understanding how they work over a larger group of people.

Fascinating and very interesting to hear that even now telomeres are a little bit longer and muscle productions is happening. So tell us a little bit about an exciting project or focus that you guys are working on today?

Well the focus is is to to run the data of what happens with patients when they take off shore therapy. Our partners there are lucky because they're getting to actually design protocols and offer therapeutics to patients who are in need. Now and one of the exciting projects that they'll be offering and we can't wait to look at the data. It's a Lotos gene therapy. So keeping it in the safest parameters is possible but it creates a cost effective potential treatment for Alzheimer's. So as using the telomerase inducer and it is actually a therapy that's under 70000 which is that the area of gene therapy is a mass that's a massive deal. That's a really you know it's just a study and it's trying to get I think 10 patients through to do that. They're also looking at bringing in a gene therapy for chronic kidney disease. It also will be about in that price range which again compared to gene therapies that are coming through translation through the regulatory services is a market change and therapeutic cost. They are also offering of course the anti aging gene therapies but they're pretty cost prohibitive and they're similar to the one that I took. So there are relatively expensive but you know people who are..

How much are those?

Those are around a million dollars. There really a lot of gene therapy and most of the price honestly that this company offers to patients is just running the gene therapy so you can imagine if you're running a gene therapy for humans through a U.S. manufacturer that's going to be almost if you're you know you're looking at high doses of gene therapy almost all of that is the cost of building the gene therapy. Then our doctors take a little bit amount of money we take a little bit to run the data just to stay in business and that idea is to find the therapies that work. And you know just so people getting about this for the future. The more patients that you run through the cheaper the cost. So like you say well how we treat a whole world of speech therapy costs you know a million dollars just to make it for a large large dose therapy. When you make it for 1000 people it doesn't cost that much. Then you know the costs are in the tens of thousands and if you made it for a million people it's going to even go down from there as manufacturing capacity of these manufacturers actually up boost up eventually becomes as cheap as an immunisation and that's what we're hoping for the world is low cost therapeutics that have huge impact on health.

Well I'm of the belief that much like anything else whether it be goods and services health care is also a good and a service. And so when looking at options I mean you know I had I had a friend Liz that actually recently about a year ago passed away. He had cancer. Couldn't find a way to treat it. Went to the best medical care he could get. He even started considering out of country solutions. And I think when it comes to our health I think we have to keep an open mind and consider out of the box and out of the country solutions. So Liz, really appreciate just sort of setting the stage for that with these gene therapies.

Thank you. You know we have to really come to the mindset that this is pioneering new technology so now more people who will spend 100 - 200 thousand, three hundred thousand dollars to get an opportunity to fly up into space well you know being part of gene therapy and pioneering new technology it's an opportunity it's more than just taking a therapy to try to treat a disease you're pioneering the future of technology. You're actually making a better world for other people and you're having inexperience and right now the outcomes for how many people have taken gene therapy now we can't say it's 100 percent safe but it's looking actually really good. So we're hoping that people will want to be part of pioneering that technology and unfortunately it does cost to participate in it. But what an experience to be a part of.

Like you said especially if you're on the dark side of it terminal illnesses when you don't have any options and you're willing to consider more things and a pioneering thing is a great analogy Liz I've got this picture of the solar system on my wall here. I'm just going at it I'm like yeah.

Perspective.

It is perspective.

I love it when I try to lock up every night and give thanks for what this universe has brought. And I just it's so humbling. And we're lucky to be part of it. And so we really should create big human value. You know what what are we going to bring to other people I don't think it's enough to sit here and make carbon dioxide. I think that we should be part of a much bigger...

I totally agree. Better way to put it. Just you could do a little bit more than make carbon dioxide alright people. Getting into the end here Liz, let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course and what it takes to be successful in the business of medicine gene therapy. The ABCs of Liz Parrish. I've got four questions for you lightning round style, followed byyour book recommendation for the listeners. You ready?

Okay.

What's the best way to improve health care outcomes?

All I would say faster translation to the right patients. So you know we need to work on precision based medicine and disease typing for patient outcomes and tackling these things genomically whenever we can.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfalls to avoid?

Risk aversion. I think that that is the easiest thing to do. I think that probably that might come into one of my favorite books, The Doom fear is the mind killer and it will absolutely limit us as human species.

Love that. How do you stay relevant despite constant change?

Well I think we're on the tip of a change but I think keeping on top of research and digging for all research that showed relevance and making sure that that research doesn't go unfound.

What's an area of focus should drive everything in a healthcare organization?

Well I mean healthy people. So what should drive everything isn't money if you're if you're meeting and eating, you're creating healthier people money will come. So I think that making people healthy longer, focusing on aging and disease and the catastrophes they cause around us and actually trying to minimize that is probably the best thing.

Great one. Well you mentioned The dune any other books you'd like to recommenders from when you're sticking with.

I think that picking your favorite book is like picking your favorite color and I think I might be too old to do that. So going through my head all of these things because you you've said that now twice and and I've been like oh my gosh. And so I think that some of my favorite books recently. So my all time favorites for adventure is Lord of the Rings and Dune I think they're fantastic. For sci-fi, it's definitely anything Philip K. Dick but as far as relevant into the areas that were working and books that are good for anyone they're not too in-depth. I would say in the last few years probably Homo sapiens and homo deus by Yuval Noah Harari. And we're good. The Red Queen which is sex and evolution of human nature by Matt Ridley was really good. The Sports Gene don't pass this one up it's the Sports Gene Inside the Science of Extraordinary Athletic Performance and I'm trying to remember these off the top my head so I get them wrong. And that's why I think it's Ebstein that was really good. It shows you how certain people have an advantage and we all want to have that advantage. We need to look at gene therapy and then there was one called the gene by Siddartha can't remember his last name started with an M REALLY fantastic. Recently I read what is life by profs I think is the name of the author and it is a really neat look at how we define what life is and it might surprise you might a mania was a one from a woman named Catherine Price. And it shows you how we look at food how we look at the engineering of vitamins in our food and how we might actually be hurting people in other countries because we have overnutrition. We may be over using these vitamins which comes at a detriment and we might be limiting other cultures from getting their hands on them just because we're getting a negative output from the over use of them here so how our mindset affects people in a long distance and then for the academics. Anyone going into science how to read a paper it's from a woman named Trish. It's green something real I can't remember that I read a paper. It's like the basics of evidence based medicine and it will help even an average person get through how to read a paper or a research paper what things that you really should look at to make sure that what you're reading is accurate so that you have a better understanding of how successful it actually was. And I would say that that's really really important in the day and age where you know cancer has been cured a hundred times in mice but never you know not once in humans.

Fascinating. There you have it folks list from Liz Parrish.

Can go right on and on and on.

Wait do you like to read?

I love to read. I love listen to books because unfortunately my eyesight is not as good as it used to be and now I have to wear a trifle also. Yeah my gene therapy did not fix my eyes. There are a lot of gene therapies that are coming through the pipeline for congenital blindness, macular degeneration both wet and dry and things like that and I'm really looking forward to those because we will need those for the future of living long lives. Right now I've gotten to the point where I really love to listen to a book rather than where my trife goes and try to figure out what part of the glasses to look through to read the book.

Yeah I'm right there with you two audio books are definitely my favorite first choice and then print if it's not available. There's also a service called Blinkist, I've mentioned before before really fully committing to a book Blinkist sort of gives you their blinks. They call them blinks the little chap. Mini chapters on what it's about to give you the gist. Get your little resource there Liz this has been a blast. Folks by the way if you want to find the list of books that Liz shared with us as well as a transcript of our discussion today, go to outcomesrocket.health/bioviva. You'll find everything there and an opportunity to replay the episode. There you could do that on iTunes, google, any podcast platform really. Liz this has been a blast. I love if you could just share a closing thought before we conclude and then the best place for the listeners to get in touch and reach out with you.

Well. Oh we'll I would just like the listeners to be really excited about the future. I'd like them to be really open minded about the future. I'd like them to sort of lay down their fears and concepts of what the future might look like and realize that you know together we've proven over and over again that humans can create technology and really use it for the good of the world and that we can together create that and they should be excited about maybe the future of their own human body. And think about the things that the assets and the benefits and the performance that they would like to have their body have in the future whether be smarter, stronger, faster. And together we can actually make that a reality.

Outstanding. And what would you say the best place for the listeners can connect with you or your company is?

Probably the best way is to go through the website bioviva.science.com and there's a place to contact us there. You'll most likely get a hold of my assistant Catarina and you can chat with her and relay any messages through or ask any questions that you have. And I'm not very good at social media quite honestly and I'm sure I have a lot of opinions but I've never been a huge proponent to think that anyone's opinion is probably that important but so I'm sort of hit and miss on social media I'll come out and I'll put a few updates out or you can always look for bioviva on Facebook or Twitter. And then I have personally account Liz Parrish on on Facebook and I think I have an instagram and a Twitter but again I'm not at them very much but you bear with me. I do try to get to the messages.

So folks if you want to get in touch with Liz just go through the website be the best way and we'll leave that link on the show notes. Just go to outcomesrocket.com/bioviva. Liz, this has been a blast. You really have taken us down a path that is very forward looking and important to consider as we look to improve outcomes and health care. So just want to give you a huge thank you for spending time with us today.

Well thanks for having me on. It's been really fantastic. And any option and possibility that we have to get information out we just really appreciate it. It's really the most important thing that you can do is help a message spread.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Recommended Books:

Dune

The Sports Gene: Inside the Science of Extraordinary Athletic Performance

The Red Queen: Sex and the Evolution of Human Nature

Homo Deus: A Brief History of Tomorrow

The Gene: An Intimate History

What is Life?: With Mind and Matter and Autobiographical Sketches

How to Read a Paper: The Basics of Evidence-Based Medicine

Best Way to Contact Liz:

https://bioviva-science.com/

Check out this Link:

https://outcomesrocket.health/podcast

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