Medical Applications of Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality
Episode 436

Walter Greenleaf, Medical Applications of VR/AR Expert – Stanford Virtual Human Interaction Lab

Medical Applications of Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality

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Medical Applications of Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality

Episode 436

Recommended Book:

Slaughterhouse-Five

Mentioned Links:

Mental Health Innovation Center

Virtual Human Interaction

Medical Applications of Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality with Walter Greenleaf, Medical Applications of VR/AR Expert – Stanford Virtual Human Interaction Lab transcript powered by Sonix—the best audio to text transcription service

Medical Applications of Virtual Reality and Augmented Reality with Walter Greenleaf, Medical Applications of VR/AR Expert – Stanford Virtual Human Interaction Lab was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the latest audio-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors. Sonix is the best way to convert your audio to text in 2019.

Saul Marquez:
Hey, Saul Marquez: everybody Saul Marquez here with the Outcomes Rocket. Are you going to HLTH? It’s the largest and most important conference for health innovation. HLTH pronounced health is one of a kind of ecosystem event for the health industry. And they’re on a mission to bring together 5000 plus senior leaders to solve the most pressing problems facing health care today and actualize the most promising opportunities to improve health. They bring together senior leaders from across payers, providers, employers, investors, fast growing startups, pharma, policymakers and innovation centers to ask one question: how do we create the future of health? I’ll be there. And I hope to see you there, too. If you use outcomesrocketpodcast150 as the promo code that’s outcomesrocketpodcast150, you’ll get $150 off your ticket. Looking forward to seeing you there. Go to hlth.com to sign up. That’s hlth.com. Use that promo code outcomesrocketpodcast150. And I am excited to see you there. I’ll even have a booth recording some podcast live at the event. The MGM in Las Vegas. So, so excited to see you there. Don’t be afraid to say hi and we’re gonna learn a lot there. So hlth.com.

Saul Marquez:
Today I have the privilege of hosting Dr. Walter Greenleaf. He specializes in the medical application of virtual reality and augmented reality. He’s currently at the Stanford Virtual Human Interaction Lab. Walter is a behavioral neuroscientist and medical technology developer working at Stanford University. With over three decades of research and development experience in the field of digital medicine and medical virtual reality technology, Walter is considered a leading authority in the field. Dr. Greenleaf has designed and developed numerous clinical systems over the last thirty three years, including products in the fields of surgical simulation, 3D, medical visualization, tella rehabilitation, clinical informatics, clinical decision support, point of care, clinical data and so on. With all the things that he has worked on, he’s brought forth a new wave. He’s been part of the wave from analog to digital medicine. And it’s a true privilege to have him here on the podcast today. He also serves as the Director of Technology and strategy at the National Mental Health Innovation Center. Chief Science Officer at Pear Therapeutics. And a Senior Vice President of strategic and corporate affairs at MindMaze. And with that, I want to open up the microphone to Walter to fill in any of the gaps of the introduction that we’ve already presented. Walter, thanks so much for joining us today.

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, thank you, Saul. I’m very happy to be here. And, gee, after that introduction, I feel both busy and sort of antique.

Saul Marquez:
You’re too funny. Well, you know what? It’s it’s incredible, you know, and I find that the people in our in our health system that find the time to do the valuable things that you’re doing are the ones that are the most dedicated. And so I love to hear from you. What is it that got you into the health sector to begin?

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, I guess what got me started was back when I was a teenager. I had some philosophical questions arise that whole nature versus nurture, freewill versus determined as a type of question. As you know, as our, I guess, libido starts being developed. I was really I was really perplexed by that whole thing of duality, of our cultural messages, of what our behavior should be and what my body was telling me. And that got me started. Very curious about the neuroscience and also the endocrinology behind neuroendocrinology, behind our behavior. And our bood led me to focusing on those topics when I was an undergraduate. I was fortunate enough to go to a college that gave us some time to do some some research studies. And that led me to my graduate work at Stanford University, where I had a focus on studying how hormones in people affected our mood and our behavior. And that got me started in the research. And from there, I transitioned into medical products.

Saul Marquez:
What an interesting path, Walter And so what was one of your most interesting insights when researching hormones?

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, I guess it’s hard to summarize that area of work, but I guess this I have is that, you know, despite the fact that we take a lot of it, such as hormones clinically, you know, for birth control purposes, etc.. There hasn’t been a large amount of work on their effect on our mood and are in our behavior. It’s still an evolving discipline. So despite the fact that we know very well that some of the hormones that we are taking to affect our levels of depression, for example, it hasn’t been as good as the study. This is the problem should be.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah. That’s a very interesting perspective. And, you know, it’s all interconnected. And today I feel like we’re definitely spending a lot more time thinking about the mind as well as the body. And so something to think about there for everybody listening, you know, what’s the effect of hormones and mood and behavior and the overall mental health of individuals and populations. So as we fast forward into your work today, Walter, what would you say is a hot topic that needs to be on leaders agendas today and how are you approaching it in the various various hats that you are?

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, I think one of the exciting things for me is that the comments are colliding. The technology companies like Microsoft, Apple, Google, Samsung, many others. Amazon even are getting involved in health care and they’re bringing the velocity in a certain set of tools in the health care. We know we can really benefit from and I’m really excited about what’s going on in precision medicine and the combination of wearables and machine learning technology to help us do better diagnostics and better feedback to individuals. And of course, in my arena, looking at how the very profound technologies of materiality and virtuality technology can be used in health care, I find that really exciting because we know have technologies that can provide On-Demand experiences and those can be used for better assessments, particularly in the physical medicine arena. And the mental health arena is sort of doing subjective assessments by observation or listening people’s self-report. We can measure things very precisely and standardize way and that can also be used to create some amazing interventions. And something is here with an aging population. I think that’s something we need to really focus on, how we can come up with a next generation technologies that will help support some of the problems that we have with a top heavy population of some of these seniors that are going to be struggling with mobility issues, with pain, with isolation, with depression, with anxiety and with neurodegenerative disease. So I’m excited about the evolution of digital health technologies and how they can apply to the medical arena. And I’m excited that we have some new tools.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, that’s for sure. And you know, we we had a chance to connect briefly before the interview, Walter. And you commented that, yeah, you know, VR and AR has been around for over 30 years and you’ve been involved in it since before.

Walter Greenleaf:
It was cool. It was cool back then, too. But it’s now portable and cool.

Saul Marquez:
And I guess that was right. Yeah.

Walter Greenleaf:
Actually, maybe it was too cool back then. I think we for many years, the term virtual reality was viewed as almost futuristic, very futuristic and very unreachable. But now for, you know, three or four hundred dollars went from virtual reality system. But the good news is also that my research group and many other research groups have been very active in pioneering how this technology can be used clinically. And even though the technology in the past was very expensive, very unwieldy, sometimes very uncomfortable, we were able to understand how it could be a lot. But I took clinical issues. And so now that the technology is much more affordable, much more accessible, much more comfortable, we can take the lessons that we’ve learned over the last 30 years and translate the help that technology escape for the research labs and get out into clinical care.

Saul Marquez:
Love that. And so why don’t we hone in on that for a little bit, Walter, what do you think an example of of the research you guys have done that could be applied at her has already been applied to improve outcomes and make things better?

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, there’s a couple areas where things are primed and ready to go. One area is a stroke rehabilitation, traumatic brain injury, rehabilitation. We already have a large number of clinics that are using the technology very effectively in that. So another area is in this in the zone of training, surgical skill training is just one example, but also training on how to handle a complex process or procedure to deal with an emergency that requires a team effort to respond to third area would be helping with addictions. We know that would be used for choke permits to teach people situational confidence and to learn refusal skills to help them with their rehabilitation and managing. Peer pressure, for example, I guess another would be in the zone of doing better assessments for my cognitive impairment index and cognitive decline. It’s really explained and screening for new etc. disease. We’ve come up some really amazing tools that can do a much more objective assessment there. And I’m also excited by what we can do in the zone of helping those on the autism spectrum. We can slow down the speed of the world. We can exaggerate facial expressions and other non-verbal communication signals and allow people to learn in the context of the virtual environment how to recognize this on purpose skills. So there’s a pretty long list. It be hard for me to see what I’m most excited about, but I am excited about the fact that we now have some new tools for both better assessment and better interventions.

Saul Marquez:
Fascinating list that that you provided there. And I’m just sitting here thinking, wow, you know, on these applications and it’s just the tip of the iceberg. Truly exciting to be alive in healthcare at this time. I’m curious what you would say has been maybe a setback and what you learned from that setback with the work that you’re doing, whether it be the researcher or any at any of the companies that you’re involved with?

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, one of the lessons I learned when I was translating some of the technology from the research lab out as a clinical product was to make sure that the pricing is appropriate. It sounds like a pretty mundane thing, but with one of my first medical products, the system that was on the old Macintosh, the computer was used for helping hand surgeons and had therapies to an impairment rating and generated a clinical report. We price the product very high and that was against my instincts and my impressions, but I was pretty inexperienced when it came to that part of medical product development. And by pressing it too high, I think we we missed the opportunity to get it out to more people and to really, truly reach more customers and get more momentum. It took us a while to to adjust our pricing. And I guess in conclusion, to me, it’s really important that I try and revise all the startups that I’ve worked with right now to really pay attention to not just the validation of your product and making sure that it matches customers needs in terms of function. But also understand it’s, you know, to do that really the business in generic behind a product to.

Saul Marquez:
Some great, great advice there, Walter. And you know, as many people get stuck in that trap of, you know, you built that and you’re trying to position it, making sure it aligns with incentives and then it’s price correctly. I think it’s a it’s a huge one to bring up something that you did.

Walter Greenleaf:
It’s often often many of the startups I’m working with today are emerging from the computer gaming arena or from the technology sector. And they they need to learn very fast about how to validate a product, how to position the product. And it’s often the the business model of our very complex medical ecosystem that is the most difficult part to figure out. I mean, the there’s a regulatory pathway, there’s a reimbursement pathway. I think those things are things that can be addressed and there’s a pathway to get through. But often understanding the workflow of a clinic and understanding some of the micro economics of a clinic, that’s often the hardest part. And coming up with the right product positioning and pricing is something that that there is a learning curve for for many of these companies that are entering the arena. But I guess the good news is that there’s now a lot of collaboration going on between these medical technology companies that are emerging. Again, some of them are coming from other sectors of business, like the computer gaming arena, but they’re starting to collaborate with the pharmaceutical companies, with medical device companies to come up with this new wave of digital health products. And those channels, those companies know the channels and the pricing correctly and can help also with validation. So I must see another wave of products emerge and they’re being done in collaboration with some of the existing participants in the medical community.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, that’s that’s really, really interesting. And I think important nowadays where the amount of risk for product innovation, especially for some of these larger pharma device companies, is is really high. And it seems to me that they’ve come to almost rely on smaller companies that are willing to put the sweat equity and, you know, initial investment to get it going. So definitely a great pathway for four startups listening today to find out ways to get that validation and positioning Right.. So what would you say is one of the proudest leadership experiences you’ve had to date, Walter?

Walter Greenleaf:
I guess I’ve had many proud moments, of course, because I’m in an area that is in health care. It’s it’s almost by definition what we do and creates leads us to feel proud about our work. But I think for me. Personally, there’s been times where customers have reached out to me. They found me through the products that they were using and they reached out to thank me. Back in 2008 and 2009, I was picked on a product to help children on the autism spectrum learn social skills. And several of the parents who had been using that product and had seen great success with their children took the trouble to write to me and keep me posted about how this had made a big difference in their sons and daughters lives. And that, of course, was very rewarding. And I’ve had that happen with a few of the other products that I’ve made, where it’s not just the pride that you get made, making a product that you feel makes a difference. But when you hear from the people that it has actually impacted directly, which often we don’t get here. As a scientist and as as engineers and technologies developers. But when the customers find you a thank you, that’s always a very rewarding.

Saul Marquez:
That’s amazing. You know, that these people looked for you and found you. And where were you when you got that message? Sitting in your living room?

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, you know that I think the first time it came through emails that the company that was representing the products that I had developed had forwarded to me. And the second time it was through, I guess it was a phone call. And it’s a wonderful thing. Often, I think as scientists, as engineers, as technologists, as the people behind the scenes making the products that eventually get out into the clinical zone. I think as a clinician, you often get direct feedback about the value of what you’re doing, but often the people behind the scenes don’t get that opportunity. So that was really wonderful for me.

Saul Marquez:
That is fantastic while tearing, you know, out there. I’ll tell you as well. Like, you know, it definitely whenever people reach out to me about an episode that we put out that really made a difference. It’s really a great feeling to know that your work is making an impact.

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, it’s all part of an ecosystem. And what you do is very important, especially with the focus on outcomes. That’s something that’s often an area that is really the index of how we design things correctly. And it’s it’s a sometimes inscrutable thing to measure. But we have to we need to know the value of what we’re doing and how it affects outcomes. And I’m sure you’ve had many rewarding moments, too, where you’ve seen how you’ve moved the needle by providing the information that you do so that we’re all part of that ecosystem trying to make things better.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, that’s a great way to look at it. We’re in this ecosystem and how how are you going to participate? You know, I see you listening to this podcast with Walter and myself. And, you know, you hearing about the awesome things that Walter’s done and and how technology’s advancing, how we’re going from analog to digital. Question is, what are you going to do? What are you going to do from this this time that you’ve spent with us today? Hopefully you contribute to the ecosystem and not just listen. What would you say yut of all the things that you’re doing, Walter is probably one of the most exciting things. What’s keeping you up at night? Why are you waking up early?

Walter Greenleaf:
I’m really excited about the evolution of an application of precision medicine, the way we can use some of the new assessments that we have to better personalize our approach. So it’s not a one size fits all approach. So there’s a program at the National Mental Health Innovation Center where we’ve working very closely with many of the technology startups to help them validate their their product ideas in the field of mental health. And a big part of that, I think, is helping them understand how they can apply their analytics to come up with personalized pathways to leverage the machine learning technologies that is out there, the better user interface technologies that we haveand the program at the National Mental Health Innovation Center is called the TIN Network. The Technology Innovation Network connects these technology companies. They’re developing medical products directly with community health care clinics, with the hospitals and the research departments, six veterans and gives them the test bed to actually validate their products. And I think that to me, that’s a very exciting thing, helping the next wave of digital health technology connect a little bit closer with the users of that technology and both the clinicians and the patients. And to me, that the process of what’s just good design. And I’m excited to be part of it.

Saul Marquez:
You know, and and Walter, as I think about the role of 10, it’s critical. I mean, a lot of money gets people talking about taking costs that on a system. And that’s true. We need to do it. But the other side of it is all the companies that fail, right., and that’s a lot of money that’s lost there, too. Now, what can we do to help these companies be more successful and I think the work that you’re doing there is critical.

Walter Greenleaf:
I have to agree and I’m excited that in a way there’s some different attitudes. When I first cut of off tobacco product development and made the transition from being a research scientist to being a involved in product development, it was almost like leaving the church that there was a feeling that there was a big separation between the zone of academic research and the zone of product development. I think the barriers are dropping on that now and that we are working with a more an ecosystem approach, but helping, especially now that there’s a new wave of sort of early stage startups that are jumping into digital health. We need to help them understand how to do validation, how to look at outcomes health, how to look at designing the products to match better, match the needs of both the clinicians who are going to be using it and also the patients who are going to be using it. If we can’t do that, if we have this feeling of we’re on one side of the ivory tower and you’re on the other side, it’s just needs to be broken down. And I think that is happening. We are breaking down those barriers.

Saul Marquez:
For sure. And and, you know, you also mentioned the this phase like a second area, third phase going from analog to digital medicine, where we’ve done an electronic medical records. We’ve done it in many different areas. But there’s still room to grow. You want to comment on that a little bit?

Walter Greenleaf:
I guess that what I’m seeing right now is that there’s a bit of an impedance mismatch between the larger pharmaceutical companies. The large medical device is the existing health care provider, networks and insurance carriers and the velocity of speed of some of the newly emerging digital health startups. And so we’ve done with a lot of effort and some pains we have. We’ve made that transition from a day where all medical records were handwritten. And I often when I was first selling medical products that were computer based. Many of the clinicians I would run across had never used a mouse or had never learned to type. And that transition now to where puter is are not inappropriate to have in the patient examination room as a metaphor. Often patients wonder what’s wrong if you’re not looking up things on the internet related to their specific condition. I think we’ve made a big see change in that then and now. Also with the introduction of combination therapy of pharmaceuticals combined with apps that’s opened up a whole other pathway to collect outcomes, data to do validation to dynamically adjust and personalized medicine. So I just feel like we’re the third wave of digital medicine. To be honest with you, I’m I’m looking forward. You don’t say digital medicine, that we don’t need a special term for it, that it’s part of health care. But and with the introduction of some very powerful technologies like augmented reality and virtual reality technology and spatial computing and machine learning, I think it’s just picking up philosophy. So, you know, we have to be careful because of this impedance mismatch of speed of velocity, an approach that the tech groups are bringing to the medical ecosystem. We have to make sure that we bring that momentum energy into the right way and channel it and make sure that we’re pretty careful about validation, very careful about understanding the pluses and minuses of the new approach. But but I think it’s it’s it’s very exciting. And I think our medical ecosystem is up to the challenge of embracing the changes that are coming

Saul Marquez:
Wonderful. Yeah. And I appreciate you sharing your thoughts there, because I was intrigued when you when you brought up that idea of this transition and ultimately your conclusion. Hey, let’s get to the point where we don’t even say digital medicine. Like when you say phone, everybody just assumes you have like a smartphone. Right. want to get to that point medicine and with the work that you’ve done, Walter, and organizations that you’re involved with. This was just the work that you do there at Stanford. It’s it’s gonna happen faster than if you weren’t working at it. So appreciate all the things that you guys do.

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, thank you.

Saul Marquez:
So getting to the end of our time here, Walter, we’ve got a lightning round, followed by a book that you recommend to the listeners. You ready?

Walter Greenleaf:
Sure. Go for it.

Saul Marquez:
What’s the best way to improve health care outcomes?

Walter Greenleaf:
I think incorporating the power of machine learning and statistical analysis and with wearable sensors and leveraging the push and pull of technology that we can use to better reach the patients and to better personalize a medical approach of it.

Saul Marquez:
What’s the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

Walter Greenleaf:
I think not that there’s a big tidal wave of change coming with the next generation of digital health interventions. And I think if people in the medical ecosystem don’t. Attention to that oncoming wave of machine learning wearables. Virtual reality, technology, analytics. And I think that you’ll be left in the dust. Things are changing very rapidly.

Saul Marquez:
A great learning. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Walter Greenleaf:
You have to stay ahead of the curve. If you want to stay relevant, you have to be part of that change. You have to participate to help out with the validation. Help out with the coming up with the new standards. Help me up with the new all of these new technologies. Bring with them concomitant privacy concerns and belet validation needs for better validation. And if you’re just standing by watching, you’re not going to be relevant. So it’s it’s more to roll up your sleeves and jump in.

Saul Marquez:
Some great advice there. Folks, it’s definitely not a spectator sport at a play. What’s one area of focus that drives everything in your work, Walter?

Walter Greenleaf:
I think the need for validation. I think it’s often very easy to quickly develop a new approach or a new method in clinical care with all these new emerging tools. But taking the time to do could design it to pay attention to the needs of the user and then to validate the efficacy, to make sure that, you know, what we’re so excited about is actually worth the time cost and its effectiveness is safe. That’s something that goes with the increased velocity of change that happens. We need to make sure we have that foundation of proper validation and good design.

Saul Marquez:
And these next two are a little more personal now, Walter, for the listeners to get to know you better. What’s your number one health habit?

Walter Greenleaf:
I do my best to try and get a good night’s sleep. I wish I was better at it, but that’s that’s by my aspiration.

Saul Marquez:
I love it. I’m definitely right there with you. And what would you say your number one success habit is?

Walter Greenleaf:
I think my number one success habit is that I I just keep moving. There’s a lot going on right now and in my zone. And I think that it’s a double edged sword for me. I’m very horizontal in my approach to a lot of work that work. I work with a large number of groups trying to help them address the opportunities that are coming through this revolution that we’ve been talking about. So for me, I think it’s I hope the success comes from connecting people, facilitating collaborations, making sure that we’re all in touch with each other and know what we’re up to and are all rowing in the same direction. So I hope that leads to success for all of us.

Saul Marquez:
I love that, Walter. And, you know, for the listeners, Walter is definitely doing some phenomenal work, as he said, horizontally as it relates to this digital revolution in health care, whether it be the machine learning, the sensors, the virtual reality, augmented reality, definitely somebody that you should be following and being in touch with. If you have a great idea and and are looking for guidance, definitely somebody that I’d recommend strongly that you connect with. What book would you recommend to the listeners?

Walter Greenleaf:
Oh, boy. That’s like asking who’s your favorite child to choose? But I’ll tell you what I’m thinking right now in response to your question, which is Kurt Vonnegut, Slaughterhouse-Five.

Saul Marquez:
Slaughterhouse-Five.

Walter Greenleaf:
It was a really a translational work in that it appeared to people who liked good literature, but it also appealed to people who liked science fiction. And it it really told an amazing story. That was an anti-war story. So for me, hitting those boxes of science fiction, anti-war and good destructive literature. It’s one of my favorite books.

Saul Marquez:
Great recommendation.

Walter Greenleaf:
Cat’s Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut. Slaughterhouse-Five.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah. Slaughterhouse-Five. Slaughterhouse-Five. Outstanding. Well, appreciate that recommendation. And wow.

Walter Greenleaf:
What’s your what’s your favorite book? Let me put you on the spot a second.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah. No, I love reading. And if I had to tell you my favorite one to date. I guess just like you Right.. It’s like. But which one’s your favorite child? I enjoyed The Innovator’s Dilemma by Kristiansen. And it just I loved it. Kind of like I am enjoying our conversation because of the his I’m a history guy, so I am at my my undergrad was in classical humanities and I appreciate and enjoy history because I feel like it teaches us so much about today and what’s going to happen. And Kristiansen did such a beautiful job of laying out the history of innovation, how how it’s happened and fast forwarded it to today. And so I really enjoyed that and the lessons that the Buddha taught, you know, whether you be an entrepreneur or or somebody involved with with a larger company and what we could do to to innovate.

Walter Greenleaf:
I love it. Check that out.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, it’s a good one.

Walter Greenleaf:
…but I’m not on the list.

Saul Marquez:
Hey, you’re the first one that’s done that I’ve done. I’ve done over 400 interviews. Walter, you’re the first one that’s turned it around. I like it.

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, next time, I’m gonna ask you what you’re most proud of. Be prepared.

Saul Marquez:
I will be. I will be. Walter, this has been a vice. What closing thought would you leave the listeners with? And where could they continue the conversation with you?

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, I guess my closing thought is that I spent some time as separate as a center on longevity. It’s what we call the center locked up because it crosses the spectrum, not just focusing on the distal end and talking about aging. And I I had the pleasure of four short while running the mind division of the Stanford Center on Longevity in one of the things I learned from that experience was to pay close attention to the fact that we do have a looming crisis in health care, in particular the fact with an aging boomer popution here in the US, it’s really a worldwide problem. It’s just a matter of math. And we know that in ten, fifteen years we’re going have a large number of seniors. Approximately two out of every seven of those in the 70s and 80s are going to have a different general disease. But there’s other problems that go along with the fact that we’re all living a lot longer and we need to leverage technology. Now we get to start to validation that the next wave of product development, if we’re going to be in time to address that looming economic and social crisis, that is just a matter of doing the arithmetic. We just don’t have enough youngsters to support that aging population, even if we’re just using informal caregivers, family sizes have gone down. So on a worldwide basis and on a U.S. basis, we know that there’s a problem. We can see it coming. We see the headlights in our roof every year. And we have to start focusing on coming up with some really amazing interventions that help with that. We have some time, but we have to move swiftly. So I guess that would be my closing thought. I’m optimistic that we can leverage some of the incredible technologies that are emerging right now. And I’m so glad that there’s a lot of collaboration going on between the technology developers and the everybody else in the medical ecosystem. But we do have to move collaboratively, swiftly.

Saul Marquez:
That’s a great call to action that you’ve left the all with Walter. And one that I’ll be thinking about, it is a challenge. And so folks, think about that challenge, you know, and look up the center of longevity at Stanford and learn a little bit more about what they’re up to over there. And let’s think about how we shape the future of how we care for the elderly, because we will we will all need that care. And so loved the call to action there. Walter, really appreciate the thoughts that you shared with us and definitely looking forward to staying in touch.

Walter Greenleaf:
Well, thank you, Saul. I’ve enjoyed those. I enjoyed the questions. And I’ll put it I mentioned for the National Mental Health Innovation Center at the University of Colorado, they’re doing some incredible work addressing some of these issues, in particular as they relate to behavioral health and mental health. And I think they’re a tremendous resource also.

Saul Marquez:
Outstanding. And folks, along with all the resources and things that we’ve discussed here with Walter will include a link to the National Mental Health Innovation Center and that he just mentioned the companies that Walter is involved with, as well as the center of longevity. For you to be able to access, just go to outcomesrocket.health and in the search bar type in. Walter, you’re going to find it there. So, again, Walter, I just want to give you a big banks, and I really appreciate your time.

Walter Greenleaf:
Thank you, Saul. I enjoyed it.

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