OR – Earl Hutz: Video automatically transcribed by Sonix

OR – Earl Hutz: this mp4 video file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.

Saul Marquez:
Hey, everybody! Saul Marquez with the Outcomes Rocket. I want to welcome you back to another podcast on the Rocket. Today, I have the privilege of actually having Earl Hutz back on the podcast today. Earl, welcome back. It’s so great to be back with you.

Earl Hutz:
Thanks for having me again, Saul.

Saul Marquez:
Of course.

Earl Hutz:
Glad to be back again.

Saul Marquez:
Oh, man, it’s so great to see you. Three and a half years, lots of updates. Folks, let me give you a quick intro on Earl before we kick things off. He is the Chief Operating Officer at ThoroughCare. He’s an accomplished operations and services leader in the healthcare IT industry, specializing in enterprise software development, consulting, and deployment, with significant experience leading professional and service technical operations teams. As the Chief Operating Officer at ThoroughCare, he provides leadership and oversight across numerous business functions, including product strategy and development, contracting strategic partnerships, making the wheels turn there. I’m so excited to have him back. We’re going to be covering a lot of great topics around value-based care and things you should know. Earl, welcome.

Earl Hutz:
Thanks again, Saul. Thank you for that great introduction.

Saul Marquez:
Absolutely. And look…

Earl Hutz:
Great to be here.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, man, It’s great to have you back. For those of you that haven’t had a chance to meet Earl, I’m going to link up the previous podcast we did in the show notes, so you have access to that. But for folks listening now, Earl, for their benefit, tell us about your background in healthtech.

Earl Hutz:
Yeah, 25 years in healthcare IT. I started as a programmer back in the, and I’ll date myself here, back in the late 90s, so I’ll let everyone do the math and try to project my age. But I started as a programmer, and I worked for a really great company named Medecision out of the Philadelphia, Pennsylvania area. It was kind of my introduction to care management, working, and providing platform services to the payer community. Through that company, I had the luxury of working with a lot of great people and having the opportunity to advance my career, and I made a couple of stops after my 15-year tour of Medecision; I worked for a couple of other great companies in the space. A good friend and colleague, Dan Godlove, founded ThoroughCare back in the early 20 tens, and as he was looking to find a way to ramp up this business, you know, I was looking for other opportunities, and we found that intersection, and he brought me on board to help run his operations division. And that was back in 2017 when I joined. So I’ve been here a little over six and a half years now, and we’re really making our mark in the industry and supporting providers and providing them with platform services that are, you know, efficient, easy to use, and really help with providers adjustments to a value-based care world.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah. No, that’s a great history there, Earl. And a lot has changed since we last talked, COVID, and I mean, there’s a lot of change happening now. How has technology shepherded change in healthcare delivery models over the 25 years you’ve been in the business?

Earl Hutz:
Right, yeah, it’s a great question. You know, there’s certainly been just I’ll stick to the obvious. I think, you know, data access, you know, and persistence. I think we’ve, the advancement of technology over the past 25 years has really, you know, expanded our ability to track data, and it’s as simple as that. The more data we have at our disposal, the better we can identify, you know, the real challenges within our patient populations and figure out who’s the riskiest of the risky, so to speak, and be able to leverage that data to drive improvements in outcomes. Certainly, advancements in the patient engagement side through telehealth, through remote patient monitoring. You know, these are things that services that we just simply didn’t have even ten years ago to the levels that we have today. I don’t know that we had them as much as we, you know, even three years ago when we first met, Saul. So a lot of advancement, and you see a shift, a lot of ways, in the model and moving toward one that is less on-premises and more about engaging people in their homes. So the health-at-home concept is really certainly starting to gain a lot of momentum, and that’s definitely supported through technological advancements, particularly in the area of telehealth. Patient education access has expanded through technology. So there’s a lot of great platform vendors that are helping educate our patients, and certainly, that wouldn’t be as, you know, as opportunistic as it is without the advancements in tech. And lastly, cloud technologies make it a lot easier for a lot of providers to be able to procure systems. You know, there’s a lot of movement and requirements in the EHR, you know, with EHR mandates and requirements, so to speak, or less opportunities yesterday than there are today for a lot of providers to find low-cost solutions that provide a lot of value, and they can be done through the cloud. So you don’t have that internal infrastructure costs. That was a significant footprint and burden in the past.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, these are all significant changes, and with that is a wave, at least an attempted wave of fee-for-value versus fee-for-volume. What driving factors do you think, you know, has led to the industry to recognize that that’s needed?

Earl Hutz:
Yeah, it’s as simple as, you know, we’re spending a lot of money on our patients, and they’re still relatively unwell, right? Just to throw some statistics out, I think the healthcare spend in 2021 was 18% of GDP. It was about $4.3 trillion. You know, we have an aging population, so there’s 65 million Americans enrolled in Medicare today. And that’s a combination of the elderly and people who are physical disabilities; probably about 93% of that number of that population number is attributed to the elderly. Obviously, you know, it’s harder to manage your health conditions as you get older, so obviously it’s going to increase the spend. But people are relatively unwell, and they’re frustrated about it, right? So we have to get more value out of our care that we’re providing and try to tamp down the overutilization of services that really aren’t driving improvements in the health community.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, yeah, and so, you know, value-based care could have varied interpretations. Let’s sort of, before we continue the conversation on that, Earl, let’s, why don’t we center ourselves on how you would define it in your own words?

Earl Hutz:
Okay, so I’ll try to keep it as generic as possible. I won’t get too textbook-ish with the definition of value-based care. For me, it’s about, you know, better utilizing our spend to get more value out of it, right? So as I just mentioned, we’re spending a lot of money, people are still experiencing a lack in health improvement and outcome improvement, and quality of life. I’d like to focus a lot on prevention being proactive versus reactive or preventative in a sense. So in the software development community, we always, we would seem to refer from time to time when we have a bug in our software, and we would have a lot of people react to the defects in our software, and it would be applauded for their great efforts in reacting to fixing a problem and resolving an issue and getting things back up to speed, right? There seems to be a lot of flash in that. And it’s, there’s not a lot of flash in prevention, right? And certainly akin to fire prevention versus firefighting, right? We fight the fire, everybody applauds the firefighting. Preventing the fires are boring, right? So to speak. So, you know, to be proactive, to be preventative, to try to find ourselves in a position where we understand that people aren’t very well, and that may be due to a number of reasons, certainly, but there’s a way that you can kind of maintain some of those challenges more appropriately with our patient population and just find ways to improve on their quality of life rather than having to react to an acute or critical care situation that will ultimately or hopefully resolve, but it doesn’t mean you’re doing anything to prevent that situation from occurring again and again. We have to find better ways.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, that’s clear. That’s clear, right? And thank you for doing that. I just wanted to level set because when we talk about value-based care, there’s a lot of assumptions. Kind of like when you talk about remote patient monitoring, that also is a very loaded term.

Earl Hutz:
Certainly.

Saul Marquez:
So definitely wanted to anchor us there. Because the next question is, you know, organizations struggle with this. So how do they best transition to value-based care, and what are your recommendations?

Earl Hutz:
Yeah, so let’s talk about fee-for-service for a quick second, Saul. I think people conflate fee-for-service with, you know, a point-of-care delivery, right? So a fee-for-service where you would end up at your doctor’s office, you don’t feel well, they run a multitude of tests on you. They may send you to the specialist, and so on and so forth. I think too many people don’t realize that there are a lot of value-based care opportunities under a fee-for-service umbrella. So we think there are a lot of organizations out there that assume, well, if I’m going to move into a value-based care contracting model that it’s attributed based, right, we will pay you based on your riskiest patients, we’ll give you a set fee for that patient, and then you map the managed within your means to ensure that you’re not overspending on that patient, right? And there’s a lot of people that are challenged by such a sharp transition from a more traditional, we get paid for the services that we render, right? Versus, you know, just being paid at a fixed price point per patient. They don’t have an easy time making that transition because they don’t have the operational wherewithal to really support that type of transition so easily because they’re just used to working in an old model. There are numerous fee-for-service programs out there that support a value-based care model. The Chronic Care Management Program, talk about remote patient monitoring programs, there are numerous, you know, wellness preventative programs, starting with your annual wellness visits. You can support care transitions through fee-for-service. You can support behavioral health through fee-for-service. There’s a lot out there to be had under a more traditional fee-for-service structure that you’re getting paid for the service that you’re rendering; while at the same time, you can start to evaluate yourself or against your peers as to how well your patients are moving the needle and demonstrating improved health outcomes, right? So as you’re, so there’s an opportunity to support a transition to a more, you know, risk sharing based payment model that supports more, you know, of an attributed payment per patient model than a fee-for-service did. And then get yourself more familiar with value-based care concepts and operations under fee-for-service before you make that transition. I think people feel like they’re falling off a pretty steep cliff if they have to move into value-based care world, and it really doesn’t have to operate that way.

Saul Marquez:
That’s great, Earl, and it sounds like there’s a lot of hidden gems in fee-for-service to really start exercising those value-based care muscles so you get it to a certain capacity and, you know, specialty to actually do something about it that’s bigger in scale. You know, there’s the patient side, there’s the physician side, there’s the insurance side, right? And all these things are things that we have to think about. What are the critical elements that need to be achieved for successful value-based care delivery?

Earl Hutz:
So I’ll start just talking generally about, primary care. I don’t know if you’re aware of this. There’s 75 million Americans that don’t have a primary care physician today. So I guess that’s out of 300, 350 million people in our country. That’s a pretty significant number, and it’s really hard to identify opportunities within that population if they’re not part of a primary care program or working consistently with the specialist that almost operates as that patient’s primary care physician. So there are some of them, some of that happening where a patient may not have a primary care physician to find that they are working through a specialist that may lessen that 75 million number, so to speak, by a very small amount. But it starts with having people enrolled in primary care programs. We have to find a way to identify people who are not seeking primary care today. We have a shortage in our community to a primary care provider, so we really have to operate to find an increase in the number of people that want to work in that field, but it certainly starts with getting people associated with a primary care program. We need consumers who are also committed. We don’t talk about enough about patient accountability in this process. I don’t know that patients are fully educated, and I’m not talking necessarily about, there’s an accountability on a patient. They should realize that if you eat candy bars and cheeseburgers and drink 64-ounce Cokes every day, that you’re probably not on the right path to wellness. But when we talk about the availability of these programs for patients, patients treat healthcare like they were in a car accident, right? So their insurance is, well, if I get in a car accident, they’ll help me pay for the outcome of that accident. Healthcare, in the minds of many people, operates in a very similar way. When it doesn’t have to be all about reaction again, coming back to the proactive versus reactive points from earlier. So we have to educate people and let them know that, look, there’s these great programs out there. You can get an annual wellness visit for free every year. There are numerous other wellness programs that support, you know, smoking cessation, obesity, depression, nutritional management. These are all free services for patients. People don’t know about them, and when we don’t know about them, it’s hard to really get them moving forward in that capacity, right? So we have to do a better job educating. Now, I’m going to flip sides quickly and get more into from a program standpoint, we talk about what’s critical for value-based care. It’s not simply identifying a person’s clinical status and reacting or working to support the clinical piece of this, right? There’s behavioral components that affect how we provide care to patients, they’re social determinant issues, right? There’s a lot of things that go into having a successful value-based care program. Identify, identifying your patients who are the most risky. There’s a lot of great tools out there that help shepherd that process to figuring out, okay, is do I need to engage Saul sooner than Earl or vice versa? Because they have a number of underlying issues that really need to be addressed sooner rather than later, right? So it’s not just all about the clinical health, I guess is what I want to get at here too. It’s really about looking at the whole spectrum of health, the whole person, person, patient-centered care that expands out to figuring out all the issues that encompass a patient, and really helping drive to the right interventions that can move them down the path to better care. And then it’s, you know, it’s all about providing that care too, right? It’s all about engaging your patients, working with good technologies that don’t bog down the clinicians and get them frustrated in a bad, kind of getting them in a bad way in advance of that engagement so. I spit a lot out.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, no, it’s great. And a lot of critical elements. And, you know, the one thing that I did want to ask you, Earl, I appreciate the conversation here is, you know, I didn’t know that 75 million Americans don’t have primary care. That’s shocking. I knew the number was high, but I didn’t know it was 75 million. And, you know, the challenge, and I’m sure a lot of people are asking this question is, so to get these folks care, you got to pay for it somehow. How do you pay for it? Or does the health system eventually end up paying for it in the emergency room, and society pay for it?

Earl Hutz:
Well, they are today, and that’s a high. The significant number amount and the number that we’re spending on healthcare is certainly directly correlated to that. We’re not, if we’re spending $4.3 trillion a year on healthcare, how much of that is due to the fact that we’re just not engaging our patients sooner? We’re not education, our education, I’m sorry, educating our patients on the things that they really need to be educated on again, beyond just here’s how you manage your diabetes. There’s a lot that goes in into the payment and certainly at the end of the day. Especially in the Medicare space, it’s going to boil down to the government being the payer for that. It’s going to translate ultimately in the coming out of our tax dollars, Saul, so.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, look, that’s fair and.

Earl Hutz:
… The easiest way to.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, but, but.

Earl Hutz:
The other side of that is on the commercial side, we’re just going to keep increasing premiums, right? I mean, if you go out to the marketplace today and you look at healthcare premiums for a family of four that isn’t covered through maybe a work-supplemented plan, and they’re just out on their own, I mean, for a basic plan that provides, you know, it’s mostly one that follows a critical care model, even the ones that are just, you know, getting some basic wellness care and you’re getting, you know, limited specialty care, but if you end up in a hospital, we’ll cover that. The premiums for a family of four, even at that capacity, are outrageous. So somebody’s going to pay for it at the end of the day, for the people that aren’t managed most effectively.

Saul Marquez:
That’s fair. Look, I ask it because I know people are asking it right. And so I got you guys covered. You’re thinking about it, we’re asking it. We’re having a great conversation here with Earl from ThoroughCare. We’re being thorough with this care. And so, look, the next step here is care coordination, right? So, like, talk to us about that, Earl. How does care coordination play a role in addressing these critical elements?

Earl Hutz:
Yeah, generally speaking, it, care coordination on the whole just involves organizing the activities associated with the patient’s care amongst a number of the constituents within that patient’s care team, whether it be specialists, whether it be your primary care, your primary care is usually your hub for that, or your caregivers or your care team that’s associated with your friends and family. For the most part, none of that can be efficiently managed without great technology, right? Without technology that can find a way to identify or support personalized health experiences that integrate with third-party systems or support interoperability through partnerships with third-party systems and providing the ability to identify the right actions at any moment in the person’s care journey, right? So you try to think about the management of all these moving parts amongst a number of different stakeholders in the care team, and it becomes a pretty complex process. But at the end of the day too, as I mentioned previously, it comes down to the care provider. So you coordinate, you know, all the care that you’d like to if you’re not providing the right care, right? Then what are you, you could be coordinating the wrong care, right? So that’s why we’re really working hard as a company to really promote the identification of a lot of challenges that don’t simply come to the surface in the form of a CPT code or a healthcare claim, right? We’re really helping our clinicians, you know, unwind a lot of the challenges. Like, for instance, social determinants is a hot topic today, all right? You know, people need food, water, shelter, transportation needs. Are we really diving in deep enough to figure out why they need those things there? I read a great article. There’s a publication from a, doctor’s name is Jeffrey Benner, and he got really deep into how he implemented a number of care coordination models over time. There was really no correlation between, you know, the things that the people, the services that people needed, especially on the social and behavioral side, and why they need them to begin with. And you come to find out most of these people had an early life issue, child abuse, sexual abuse. Are we really going that far back and tracking and trying to identify these types of issues that patients are experiencing? I’m not sure that a lot of organizations are, and we really need to because we need to get to the underlying whys in terms of, you know, why these people need the level of care that they do, and then moving forward with the right care planning and the right care coordination to really effectively move the needle.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, thank you, Earl. And as far as ThoroughCare goes, you know, we’d love to hear maybe an example of how you guys are doing some of this for some of your customers.

Earl Hutz:
Yeah, so we’re, our play, quite frankly, Saul, is to be as comprehensive as we can be. So we’re very strongly rooted in our ability to, you know, assess our patients. We have strong clinical content that we, that our clients can leverage to help them figure out. All the challenges that a patient may be experiencing, we can automate the development of a care plan. We’re starting to move the needle forward, and introducing some workflow automation and helping reduce some of the challenges. I mean, we’re, not lost on us is the fact that primary care isn’t necessarily set up to support all the things we’re talking about in terms of interoperability and coordination. So we’re just trying to set up the platform. We work with a number of great third-party partners. We’re smart enough to know that we, that other people have built things that complement us very well, that trying to build those things on our own would just be somewhat of an effort in redundancy or even futility. So there’s a number of partners that, you know, for educational content, we partner with Healthwise. So, a few shout-outs. Healthwise is a great partner. We partner with a company named Zeus Health, which was founded by Jonathan Bush, who was formerly of Athena before he started Zeus. Zeus is a data aggregator, so they partner with a number of different provider entities and payers, and they try to build a master data lake that we can reference so that outside of the walls of our practices, we can find more information on a person that may not have been at our constituents disposal, right? So partnerships like those, you know, are great and are really helping us, you know, take this platform onward and upward.

Saul Marquez:
That’s great. Now, appreciate you sharing that. And the ideal the ideal client for you, is it a large provider organization? Is it a smaller physician office? Like who is it?

Earl Hutz:
Yeah, so we cut our teeth, so to speak, in the smaller independent doc practice area, you know, space, and mostly in rural areas of the country that really were limited in their ability to provide care coordination and care management, wellness, types of services. They just didn’t have, you know, lightweight platforms like ours to be able to supplement that type of operation and help them ramp up the programs all the same. So we started there, but, you know, Saul, we’re moving well beyond just the small independent practice community. We’re working into pharmacy, into pharmacy spaces, you know, pharmacies really engaged in care coordination and wellness, and mostly because they realize that they have a relationship with patients that many don’t even have, even those that are associated with a primary care provider, they feel like they have a more close-knit relationship with their pharmacist. So pharmacies are realizing this, and they’re starting to take advantage of that, and, you know, we’re working our way into that space as well and supporting them and their onboarding of care coordination programs. Payers are certainly not out of the purview for us either, so we’re gonna start to work in the payer space as well. But large health systems, ACOs, there are a lot of great clinical groups that provide clinical care services as an extension to a provider and a consulting capacity, so they’ll white label our product and bring it along with them and their implementation of these types of programs. So it’s a pretty, we’re starting to paint it with our prospective client base with a pretty broad brush.

Saul Marquez:
Thank you. I just want to make sure that, you know, the listeners take away how you guys could help them. So I really appreciate that. Yeah, I got to ask the question. AI, you know, it’s like if don’t ask it, then I’m leaving something out. Is AI playing? Is it playing a prominent role in care management implementation?

Earl Hutz:
Yeah, it will. But I want to be abundantly clear, it will not replace the care manager. So we have to introduce opportunities, right? So there’s, you know, to enhance the relationships between, you know, between care managers and their patients because patients are just never going to trust a computer, and they’ll realize very quickly they’re not engaged if they’re engaging with a bot and they’re not engaging with an actual human, especially as we get older as a population and we’re more aligned with how technology works, right? So people can see through some of those types of things, but we need to be able to, you know, provide better types of services that enhance engagement, right? So we’re starting to take on more, I mentioned workflow automation, maybe leverage some AI concepts to look at, you know, all the data that we’re aggregating in our platform and defining personas around certain, you know, in certain, you know, segments of the patient population find out, you know, try to build a cohort around types of challenges of the patient group may be suffering through, figure out what types of interventions are working for those patients and driving to improve the outcomes and what aren’t, and be able to share that information across our client base. So we’ll be leveraging some AI for that. Transcription is another big deal. So, we’re doing, we’re going to start doing a lot of voice-to-text, but we’re also going to be pulling out the juicy parts of those conversations and really heighten the things that make the most sense to be drawn out in front of a care manager to focus more on as they continue to engage with those patients. We’re actually partnering with a couple, we’re about to partner with another group. I’ll keep their name out of it for now until we have the contract in place, but they have the ability within 30 seconds of a conversation between a patient and a caregiver, a care manager, to identify if that patient is dealing with issues like depression or anxiety and just not telling you about it. You can tell based on, you know, guess voice, by tone of voice or something, right? There’s biometrics that they’re able to figure out very quickly, and it can pop up on your screen that, hey, this person isn’t diagnosed as depressed. They may very well be and we need to get in front of that here. So there’s a lot of cool components in AI, but it won’t be a replacement for people.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, no, I love that. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much for highlighting that, Earl. And really, you know, the thing that we need to take away from this conversation with Earl, guys and gals, is the power of collaboration, right? You know, collaboration is the new currency if we’re going to succeed in value-based care or in healthcare in general. You know, Earl, you and your company are a great example of being able to partner across the aisle and bring, you know, comprehensive solutions to the customers, the providers that need them most. Speaking of healthtech trends, you got an eye for these things, Earl, is there anything that we might be missing in terms of furthering value-based care?

Earl Hutz:
Yeah, so I mentioned there’s probably too many programs to list. I’d just give a couple of examples so quickly. One that stands out, I had a conversation with Carol Helton, who’s our chief revenue officer, we were talking about end-of-life planning as, maybe a couple of weeks ago, just sidebar conversation about expanding our advanced care planning programs through our platform. We probably spend there’s probably about 800, some odd $900 million spent on Medicare every year somewhere. I read the other day, somewhere between 15 and 25% of that is end-of-life care associated, the last year of a patient or even the last weeks of a patient’s life. How many times have we run into a situation, Saul, where a patient ends up in a hospital, you know, they’re on a, you know, a breathing apparatus or being kept alive, they don’t have any living wills, they don’t have an advanced care plan? So people can’t make decisions. There may be their … living will, they may have had a DNR, right? So we’re paying for a week, two weeks hospital stay, right, in a scenario where the patient or family, whomever, may not have wanted that. They want end-of-life to happen a lot more peacefully, and we’re spending a lot of money on those types of services. So how much of that, so if we’re at $900 million, a quarter of that, $225 million is attributed to end-of-life care, how much of that $225 million are we spending, right, on watching people in their final days, sitting in a hospital bed or laying in a coma in a hospital bed, right? There’s got to be ways that we can address that. Readmissions amounted to somewhere around $26 billion a year, people who are readmitted to the hospital within 30 days. Why is that not being managed better, right? There’s programs to manage things, advance care, planning, transitional care. They’re out there, they’re published by CMS, and especially in the Medicare space. We’re not taking advantage of these things. Part of the problem, to be quite frank, Saul, is the payment. We don’t pay. We pay an exorbitant amount of money for healthcare, and we don’t pay enough to our providers to provide value-based care. So there are, the provider community is inherently jaded over wanting to make a transition, simply over feeling like they’re going to have screws turned on them in terms of the money they should make out of it. We should be paying more for value-based care services than we should be paying for the other types of reactive and frivolous services that we provide every day in healthcare. I would say simply, simply put, it comes down to the dollars and cents of it, and we should just be paying more there.

Saul Marquez:
I completely agree with you. And some great callouts for areas that we could be focused on. Look, we’re here at the, at time. Where can people get ahold of you and your team to learn more about what you guys offer?

Earl Hutz:
Yeah. So, easiest direction to find us is probably just through our website, Saul, www.ThoroughCare.net. We have a lot of great content. We’ve worked pretty hard over the past couple of years since you and I last spoke on putting out a lot of great videos and a lot of great, you know, blogs and educational content on our site. So we worked really hard to increase our marketing here at ThoroughCare. So feel free to go out and check out all the great things we have out on our website. If I could just close with one more note coming back to the last point, Saul, just another statistic for you. The yearly spend per patient per capita in America, we spent about $925 on administration. So enrolling patients, marketing big billboards for joining health plans or, you know, billing. We spend $924 a year on long-term care, of which care coordination is probably the primary part, right? So just, it’s absurd, to say the least, how we could spend more time on administration and actually addressing the long-term care needs of our patient population.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, really.

Earl Hutz:
I do appreciate you giving me the opportunity today to talk about these things.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, for sure.

Earl Hutz:
Near and dear to our heart and …

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, for sure. Look, fantastic, and folks, take advantage of engaging with Earl and his team. Check out ThoroughCare. We’re going to leave the link to their company in the show notes. Earl, really grateful that you made the time for today as well. Keep doing what you do well.

Earl Hutz:
Yeah, I’m thankful for the time as well, Saul. I’m really appreciative of you giving me the opportunity to come and speak my piece on your podcast.

Saul Marquez:
Anytime, my friend. Open door for you. Anytime. Talk to you soon.

Earl Hutz:
I’ll take you up on that for sure.

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