How to Leverage Mobile Health Data with David Haddad, CEO at Overlap

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: Welcome back to the outcomes rocket podcast we reach out with today’s most successful and inspiring healthy leaders. I just want to introduce an amazing guest for you today. I’ve been getting prepared to head over to the TEDMED event that’s in Desert Springs, California this year and it’s going to be pre happen. But I was doing some research on this amazing amazing healthcare contributor. He’s the CEO at Overlap. Now couple of things. He was from California. Eldest child with two siblings. A really cool background right. David Haddad OK he studied chemistry got a B.A. in public health then he went for some more. Got some more schooling in economics at the London School of Economics. But then he proceeded to have some pretty amazing experiences across different organizations in healthcare the USDA, the Pan American Health Organization where he reached tuberculosis transmission in pediatric population and research that there the World Bank the U.N. Foundation where he designed development and strategy for health unbound dot org.

He’s done so much and now his current role is as the CEO of Overlap and they’re doing some pretty amazing things that Overlap health. So they’re using really working across the realm of healthcare organizations and researchers working with mobile health data. They’re doing it through APIs, data visualization libraries and mobile SDKs which are built on top of the open m-health data standard. Pretty amazing gentleman and him and his team are doing some outstanding things, but what I wanna do is just open up the microphone to David to fill on any of the gaps of that intro and just give you a warm welcome, David thanks for joining us.

: Thank you. Thanks for having me Saul.

: Hey so anything that I missed there in your intro?

: It’s pretty good. Yeah, there’s definitely some clarification over there but, yeah it’s it’s been a journey.

: So tell me you’ve been in health care for some time now. Why did you decide to get in?

: Well that’s a very good question. Healthcare, to me has always been a way, I feel like I’ve always been for.. Since childhood I’ve always wanted to work with helping the people who need it the most. So I always felt the health care was just a great profession to be in specifically to help people who are need in a lot of ways advocating for the poor. And you know like when I was a kid I really want to in high school or become a doctor. And when I was at Berkeley, I always want to be a doctor. I went on a path and did the premed stuff, all the requirements apply it and did whatever. You know I was I was always clashed with the idea of public health and medicine and so I think I really wanted to sort of a little bit more on public health as a way to help lots of people at the same time. And yes, it’s just founded as a as a great way to to do social justice and to help with getting people who need healthcare the most. I mean there are other ways you can do that, you can do education work and other other sort of social services and it was just, I really trying to help them. And a lot of medical folks in the background. In my childhood, my uncle is a doctor and my mom is an extra type. My great aunt was a nurse. Bunch of cousins on medicines.. professions. It’s just been a big part of my life and it’s something I really enjoy doing.

: That’s pretty cool. David now thanks for sharing that. And really ultimately you were drawn by the population level type of impact and you could have as it relates to access and just kind of helping the underdog. Is it true you had the rap group in high school called symphonic thugs?

: I did. I did. I did have a rap group in high school. This is like thugs yeah I know everyone..

: That’s awesome. That’s so cool.

: People’s MC Beats. And work so to do comparity. Kind of Beastie Boys our rap and I was I bit nerd and so we are bunch of the guys from band with we created this RAP album. We perform.

: Oh you had an album huh?

: Yeah we had an album like we had we made money and we sold it. And I think most musicians today. I still debate whether or not I want to listen to the world about what we did to be kind of fun just reminisce on the past. Yeah yeah, I had a very strong music background.

: Super cool man and I always love that our guests have this such unique experiences that oftentimes we ignore but they’re the very juice that helps us be creative and helps us do what we got to do to make healthcare better.

: Yeah I think it’s I think it’s, I love this quote from Thom Yorke from Radiohead. He says I don’t they were asking him like now how to do X Y Z. You know I do this music and he says I don’t know what I’m doing. I think that that was so profound for him to say I don’t know what I’m doing and I think that’s my motto is there’s nothing music has been a big music in sciences even though in arts and sciencesyou think that they’re kind of opposed in a lot of ways of how rigid or sort of just how people think about it but in a lot of ways that’s been my experience like I’m always approaching a problem as late as I don’t know what I’m doing but as a musician you grow up knowing like OK I don’t know how to play this music. And you start, you know saving it first. Oh god, this is crap. Do we swear on the show. I don’t know.

: Yeah you’re good.

: It’s really shit when you first played the song and then you say OK I’m going to figure out what is the score? maybe match this for that quarter. And it’s the same thing with science and engineering and you’re like OK there’s a problem. I don’t really get it. And he never should come into it knowing anything. Now that being able to look at stuff with as much as you can with fresh eyes is what allows a lot of beautiful things to emerge.

: David That’s that’s pretty insightful man.

: Thank you. So I’ve operated a hide to look at things with fresh eyes as much as I can.

: Yeah and I think it’s a good message right. I mean and also to be able to say that, to admit that you’re a leader in a health organization listening to this hey it’s OK to admit that you don’t know because that really opens up the opportunity for true idea generation collaboration and you’d be surprised what it will do for the culture of your organization.

: I totally agree. It’s a hard skill to have. You have to sort of challenge your ego and check and whether or not. Like why are you hearing this. Where were you thinking in a certain way as your ego and ego kind of allows you to not be so open to sometimes easily be so open to change. And I think to be.. is death and a lot of ways of seeing that healthcare day by day with every everyone who stays is still in object and motions isn’t motion objects to rest is a rest you move. So they want to move, everyone wants to move in a positive direction. But if you’re thinking, if you’re not willing to unlock that kind of inertia and how you think, and ego plays a big role in that and just being more open to not knowing and being curious about what’s what can happen. That’s how you get to go forward.

: As such a strong message. David appreciate your diving into that very revealing of your leadership philosophy and probably the reason one of the reasons you’ve had success in this space. Before we dive into hot topics and all that jazz. I love if you could just level set the listeners on what your company does and what your focus is.

: So I mean so Overlap, we help healthcare organizations, get patients generating data into the clinical workflow. And we’re the most robust and powerful and flexible solution in the market today that allows that to happen and built on years and years of the work that I’ve been doing for them health open standards from mobile health data. Yes that’s what we do. We help.

: Hey David, What’s the problem that I have that you can solve?

: Well let’s say you have a whole host of diabetics in your patient population or you have a whole bunch of hypertensive population and want to be able to say look you know I want these little visits that this patient does every few months or what couple of times a year is going enough to know to be able to manage the disease and especially with you know if any CEO or if I’m shifting towards previous care or whatever, I really need to contain my costs. So what I want to do is I use Overlap to basically prescribe a plan or program for a specific patient, geolocation, track you know set some goals set some suggestions of like you know something to be alerted if a blood pressure reading is out of bounds. You know mostly certainly it start from multiple measurements. They do that, they set it up once and then patient would basically get an app and connect it to whatever wearable that it’s associated with that specific measurement so it’s blood pressure, of blood pressure cost it. We like whitelisted it in our system and then they just are tracking and they start entering your information and taking surveys and communicating with the provider and if something happens it opens up an opportunity for provider to be able to triage and work that patients into behavior so they don’t have to keep coming into the doctor every time. So some stuff happens if something happens or something doesn’t happen, it’s just a waste of time.

: That’s true, right yeah. So listeners here you go if you’re frustrated about not getting enough data. You know your patients are not coming in as often as you’d like. You don’t have the information you need, David is the guy to call and uhm definitely many years of success doing it. What do you think David out of all the things you work in health care. What’s a hot topic that needs to be on our listeners agenda today. And how are the folks at overlap taking care of it?

: This is a really interesting topic I don’t think a lot of people discuss too often but I think it’s something that we’re trying to do is we’re building trust. I think this is a topic that is kind of this and this trust that that’s being broken and I think starting from that position trust. I know this is not a serious technical is like talking about delaying and did that.

: No, but it’s good it’s real. So is it trust like between what parties?

: Well think about it from the perspective of what’s affecting a lot of health care organizations is that patients are sick and tired of the treatment that they’re getting there gains shuffled through visits they’re not really getting the health care that they need. Not to mention your clinicians are burning the hell out. For every hour that they’re spending with the patient which is why they were going into medicine in the first place. They spent two hours on administrative care. So you have, this is the state of the world. Yes you have that’s going on. And then you have patients who are frustrated. And then what is going patients are now going to all like new alternative therapies type of thing like the.. People spend Billions of dollars in yoga and I’ve heard people especially in California. I mean I hear people in you know social settings, yoga is like can help with cancer. I’m like What the hell are you talking about? That’s how people are.. what’s going on because it is so sick and tired of it. And so there’s a lack of trust that’s been broken between the two parties and what happens, the trust is that you have to make a promise to someone that you’re going to do something and you do it and setting the expectation and meeting those expectations builds trust. But when when a lot of patients are kind of going in and clinicians are sort of everyone’s pissed off at each other. I think starting from a place o stop playing as a healthcare organization about how much money you’re going to make or how much, trying to scale them over with patients or trying to increase dollar and just like all these cutting costs. So figure out how. I know it’s not as if we were rethinking the metrics as how do we scale trust in our system. And I think it’s not being discussed because I think there’s so much focus on like these other issues like, I had to I like make money to survive. But if you think about it from the way survive is if you if people trust you and it’s going to keep coming back. And so I think it’s it’s a hot topic and in our organization we talk about trust and empathy so much and how we’re trying to deliver services how we care so much about what the organizations are dealing with and suffering with that. And there are the immediate things at the top of my hand stuff that they really, the deeper stuff is it’s really important so we try to do that like a trustworthy service to our clients but understanding the apathetic to where where they’re coming from is critical. I think that everyone spend a little bit time of that build with that assistance.

: I think that’s great David. And how do you scale trust. So we’re working with our organizations I think there’s the internal trust with our colleagues and there’s the trust that we have. Like David mentioned with patients. And it’s a fascinating topic. David maybe you could give the listeners any example of how you’ve seen this done maybe something you guys have done on something one of your clients has done. I’d be interested to hear more about that?

: I think a lot of ways people are, if meeting people whey are at and you see some organizations are trying to this by investing a little bit more technology. We have, we basically have patients and I can click a button. This little magic button in a car comes and picks me up where it takes me wherever I want to go. It’s like you’ve always like.. services. I trust the service so much because it’s so, it meets the promises that it’s going to come pick me up in a certain amount of time and I’m just going it. And it does it takes me safely where you wanna go and comfortably. And so when certain organizations are trying to do that, they’re trying to do things like investing in.. like with mobile apps and getting data from wearables.. They’re trying to do things better booking they’re trying to make it easier for you to book online and of have a call 15 times over the phone making an appointment. So some organizations are doing it but they’re still not meeting the patients in the lives that they’re living and trying to make it easier for them in a way so that they can manage their care better. So it’s. I mean we still got a long way to go. There’s little things that are happening. I’m noticing also like some clinicians and just from hearing from family members or some clinicians after an appointment or leveraging just like little, nice little follow up systems dot com.. call my aunt after surgery of months afterward just asking what she’s doing. It’s just that caring attention, but attention to detail is this really goes so so long in terms of a relationship that you build with the patient because the alternative is they’re not going to come back to you and they’re going to go to CBS or Walgreens or Wal-Mart to go get the primary care whatever they need. If you really want to. Yeah that’s that’s I don’t know how you scale it. I mean that’s that’s the scaling comes from operationalizing then making them part of the bones of the organization not trying to start patients off within 1 2 minutes even can get to the next one. A friend of mine works at a county hospital in California. And they’ve been doing physician assistance meaning his clinic has been basically resisting in the organ system. The accounting system saying no we’re not going to stand eight minutes with a patient that it has a lot of health issues or take as much as we want. So what’s happening is patients love it actually going back to the service get really good care getting healthier. And the crazy thing is that they’re the highest billing unit within within the hospital. They’re billing more they’re making patients healthier and patients keep coming back. So I don’t know it’s just those types of little things I think we could do so much more and there’s little things that people are doing.

: No, that’s pretty cool. Yeah absolutely David. And it’s health care. That’s not health machine and I just kind of feel like we’ve been very focused and rain busy on the revenue, on the metrics and and think it’s valuable to take a step back and think about what you can do to show that care and it be something as small as an email or phone call to a patient and finding a way to David’s point operationalizing. Right Start small get auto pilot going but scale it. Get ready to scale it. Because this is how you’re going to be able to make an impact and be able to take your facility to the next level. Now give us an example of maybe something that you guys are doing to help these types of programs at Overlap.

: Yes so where we’re working with uhm, let see so we are doing some stuff. We work at a large healthcare organization in California doing remote patient monitoring so we got deep inside of AHR and to the epic system and clinicians were beign able to order diabetes program or we don’t really were agnostic. They call it programs where agnostic to the disease you know it doesn’t matter to us. But whatever the diseases we went to get these patients in diabetes program and so they had. They’re dealing with like out of control diabetics, these are the people who are who have like an A1C, H1C of A tumor which is you know they’r drastic they just can’t manage their diabetes. And you know we know this, we know all the facts and figures and these are the people who are causing the most cost of the system as well as a lot of the health issues is from there. These very severe chronic diseases and so they’ve been using a system to get to patients to control you know get this data information and they’re starting to see A1Cs are going down. The same is true that the time that was wasted with nurses and doctors fussing around the data have been reduced dramatically from like double digit minutes to less than a minute basically looking at data. So massive cost efficiency so they can actually visit the time on the changing behavior which is what the whole point of what we’re trying to do is help guide you towards healthy behavior and lifestyle like diabetes lessons. That’s been a pretty phenomenonal we’ve been helping with that we’re working with the V.A. about to go live within an appand that is going to help understand what are the thing depending on if there’s changes in mood. What are the little things that we share with you that little micro interventions or insights that we could to provide to individuals who are maybe suffering.. that can better help them in those moments between clinical visits. So things like that working once in physician medicines with UCSF with this. Now there’s a whole host of kinds of what we’re working that are doing lots of things to be able to either understand how to better improve trust or more importantly just helping to improve care in general.

: Now some really great examples David and you know interesting to just think through this. I mean if you expect to get what you need from these isolated office visits, forget about it, you’re not doing what it takes to provide that care to that patient or the population that you’re taking care of. And so it’s cool to think through some of the opportunities that exist for organizations to take on programs through patient reported data. Now the impact that you can have could be so much bigger and so much better.

: Yeah you’re looking at the difference between I mean we don’t need to get into all the nitty gritty of of new revenue opportunities that are available but there are new revenue opportunities available for CNS that you can build for this . There’s a really a quick return of investment but more importantly you’re going from a one off a one aux sort of visit to a lifetime relationship. And I think this is a shift that has triggered that present by doing things like remote patient monitorin. It presents a new opportunity to have a long term relationship with the patient not just like they come in for their weekly visit to their either month once a year as you know.

: Right.

: And I think it’s it allows it allows. So it’s different. It’is different because you’re starting to think about patients but that relationship and how do you keep your cost down as well as your revenue and for long term basis versus which will eventually make you win money from that patient then you would be just selling just these one off sort of like come in.. The way the system is there’re just getting those. This is try to ensure if we know if the patient comes in to get. We know that they’re going we’re going to get paid for it but it’s a new way of thinking and in this ways is starting to pick up a little bit of steam so far but you know we think it’s kind of magical it’s not it’s pretty straightforward, it’s very easy. We help organizations you know what kind of demystifying how all of the things that it takes to do this it’s not that difficult to do. And it’s actually it has a huge impact on just that relationship I think. When I talked earlier about the trust between patients and clinicians think one of the things that we and some of our earlier research in this is why patients who loves doing this might even know that you know it’s overwhelming. There’s you know there’s new technology that always everyone keeps one and there’s ways to kind of with proper training and good technology good design to make a difference in that. But despite that both clinicians and patients especially patients love the fact that they have the doctor on the other end of the line and that someone on that on care team is looking at their data and they just feel so much easier and happy and more comfortable that there’s someone else you know someone there watching them or helping them throughout to process in their journey. sort of just thing like I’m going to do my doctor tells me to do this. I go home I get a little piece of paper and then somehow I have no interaction with my doctor for months if not.

: Yeah months. Yeah. It’s such your choice. I mean it’s your choice listener saying you want to be transactional or do you want to be relational. And the best businesses in the world deliver the best value. But they also know the lifetime value of their customers. So to David’s point are you going to just take this patient and treat them as they come in. Or do you know that if this patient stayed with you through their wellness and sickness by the end of their lifetime, they’re going to be able to generate X dollars and you’re going to be able to help them stay healthier. You know those numbers like McDonald’s knows wht’s you are worth $50,000 through your life. So they’re gonna keep you happy. Maybe not healthy.

: Yeah. It’s changing. Yeah I know..

: Right. Admit it.

: They’re getting and they’re getting as a result of their you know like listening I mean you don’t they’re not as responsive as other companies but they’re listening is helping you. I mean they’re are training customers long healthier productions and in the thousand we’re shifting towards that and it’s changing which is good. And I think that’s the thing is like listening to your patients, listen to what they want, yes they don’t always know what they want but it’s really like. I mean we talk about health care. I don’t know maybe it’s a selection bias of the people surround me that are that talk about health care but I don’t think they’ve had experiences in non-healthcare settings just people just normal people talk about healthcare and experiences either. Like you hear the stories about like which providers but they just rant and rave about how awesome you are and most conversations are not great. Most people don’t. They’re struggling these conversations are being had every day at the dinner across the world or at least in America for sure. So there’s opportunities to fix it. Yeah look at Amazon, Amazon as you know they know if you’re going to buy they know that is going to buy a lot of stuff for years. They’re going to make investors.. Say look we have like sort of a long term people relationship. We’re talking an organization is comprised of people. It’s people transacting or you know working with other people like we’re still humans at the end of the day and make it human exactly.

: And I’m right there with you. I think it’s a great message. So can you share time David when maybe you were trying something that didn’t mark out a setback and what you learned from that?

: In terms of running the organization or just in general?

: Whatever comes to mind. It could be the organization it can be a solution whatever you want to share.

: I think one setback for us sas it was a pro and con like we worked with a very large organization in the beginning of our existence.. and which was that I felt like it was a.. you got in terms of out of.. like a postdoctoral fellowship on like how to deal with a large health care enterprise, You know I am we had dabbled, I dabbled before with.. and done like some small projects with like organizations now and the nonprofit Open impulse but it was never at this level. And I think you know starting out that was great because it was great for cashflow but it was really really bad, not bad it was it was wonderful experience. I had to say but intentionally because they’re so big it didn’t leave a lot of chance for us to work on our product. So I wish we had worked a little bit sooner on this product but and it worked it out well so far so and everyone was happy and then it just it was a lesson I think someone had told me about this show you want to work with them and so they like some large. They’re going to eat, they’re gonna just take up all your time. And you know there’s a lesson we learn from it we’re ready to do it again.

: So it was basically a very time consuming endeavor that took you away from other things. Focus areas of the company but finally you got them situated and you’re able to keep working on those. Is there any pearls that you say man one thing. If I go down this road or when I go down this road again this is what I would do differently.

: Not really related to that but I think that in general I think this is focused to people who really want to do this,really want to do the monitoring and trying to convince people who don’t know anything about it or don’t, haven’t heard about it or not interested in it. It’s difficult it’s a lot of you know we’re a small company and many of my friends who also in companies and state they are also small. They don’t have multibillion dollar, million dollar marketing budgets to convince the culture that this is especially healthcare culture, this is the right thing to do. So I think just thing I’m just trying to really focused on is working for organizations really want to do this and I think that’s a really great solution of doing it. Others that do other things wrong we do certain things wrong well and there’s good companies to choose from. But we’ve been doing it longer and better than others. Yeah, just focusing on that’s and focusing on that trying to work with the partners and understand that shared his vision of where we’re going culturally I think that’s another.

: And I think that’s powerful and it’s powerful and you know a lot of a lot of entrepreneurs can make the mistake of hey you know I’m going to go after the whole market. The reality is you have an ideal customer. Know that ideal customer and focus all of your efforts and resources on them.

: Yeah it’s just been trying to make their lives better. They get sick and have to live in them. That’s it should be possible. But It’s not really. We’re trying to do the best for the people who really want to do this. Yes a waste of time. And the great thing I think we because we’re we haven’t taken the venture dollars so we’ve been making money from day one we .. ideas I guess that’s how I grew up. I grew up with a lots of business. And we ask people for money and they pay for your services if your services isn’t good enough and..

: You shouldn’t get paid.

: So I think that answers as a result of not having like it is sharing a lot with us that you shouldn’t take money, you should look to the future and so there’s a time and a place for it I think and just. And also this is the opportunity because we aren’t free from. We don’t have a gun to our head to make like 10x return in a year and a half on whatever money we get to like work with the people that want to work with and that fit our culture and we fit their culture and where they’re the gun. I think that’s really exciting. It’s hard to do far that.

: It’s awesome man. Not so great. Tell us about one of the most exciting or proudest leadership moments that you’ve had to date?

: Proudest leadership moments from you’re like or just.

: Yeah about the thinking across like the the wide experience you’ve had in healthcare David. Likeone thing that sticks out as Dang this was awesome.

: So as of late I think it’s been working with the V.A. I think that’s been really really incredible. I think just people are always kind of able to work with these people the V.A. that they want to do solutions in the work kind of cutting edge innovative work and they just really got it. Yeah I really didn’t think that they were going to get it because people see the eggs. So that’s been really exciting, getting to work with them and they’re really excited about what we’re doing and what they’re doing and that’s the kind of role too to see that kind of that that relationship began and starting to grow. I think other big thing is you know the work they had done at open and house building an open standard and open community and that’s just you know I was I’m still executive director I don’t want Harry and sometime and few hours a week on it. But when I started, when we started in 2011 you know talking to people like hospitals and people about health and inoperability standards and everyone’s like what the hell is in it operability is. You know now we’re it’s crazy. It’s crazy. Now we’re at a point now like I looked at the numbers. What the hell we bought some tools and we got some you know we built some tools using the open standard that we had designed with people from the industry and it isn’t like 6000 downloads it’s 4000. I’m like wow. Mean this is a worldwide. People are using software. I think that’s in the first place and .. what we could what we could do. And then we just recently part of because of that work and the leadership that I’ve done along with people that I worked with there were now part of a working group within naturally which is helping legitimize that as an open standard for the world. So I think that that’s I don’t know if you answered really awesome just like shoot that’s I wasn’t expecting this to happen and it’s like getting on the international stage and it’s just really awesome. Yeah I love it.

: That’s pretty great man. And you know yeah I mean to think about that project you were working on is now becoming a standard. People are adapting it like it’s like. Whoah, this is unexpected but also all those hours and effort that you spent working on that was actually worth it. David tell us about a project that you’re focused on today that you’re excited about?

: I think the newest one is that where he really stalked about is the well actually of them. One is like I said the V.A. project is called The Ware. That’s where it’s going to be out on iOS and Android in a few weeks. We go to our webstudy.org. You can you can sign up to learn more where we go to go live. And that’s pretty exciting. And then we just we’re about to go live this week or next week the approvals at Harvard that nurses health study. So we’re powering there and enough to listeners you know that the Nurses Health Study but it’s one of the largest longest running our health studies of our time. This has been in use since the 70s. The study was out of Harvard but it’s been things that you see like you know that’s. It’s helped to contribute so much to our understanding of the cardio.. and hypertension and lots of different kinds of behavioral types of diseases and conditions and so we’re getting the power of that and that’s going to be awesome. So our partners that the nurse’s study.. health study, three will be doing you know recruitment for that. So we’re really excited about that. And it’s cool because it can help to contribute your understanding of health.

: Now David is this study Nurse’s Health? Are this is nurses documenting it or I guess I don’t know what the name really refers to.

: So the Nurses Health Study, it’s a captive audience of nurses. They have over a hundred thousand nurses that are participating in study. So they will be tracking various measurements like their geolocation. Got track for their steps using their Fitbit, their steps in sleep and heart rate and wasting precious stuff with their Fitbit and they’ll be doing that a few times a year. So my goal is to just attract another condition and so that gets used to publish or perish reports. So you know and it extends extends. I mean obviously we can do this for the entire country. We want to focus more on nurses. They have a really big sample size that it must either. Most other studies in this space don’t really have that kinda samples size.

: Well. There’s no doubt. David you’re doing some pretty amazing things. The time flies man so we’re going to find another time to get you back on for a part two. This has been very enjoyable. If you had to recommend a book to the listeners what would you recommend?

: Yes, a one book that I read recently it just kind of like. It’s really fun to read and this was quite informative as the book called Win Bigly by Scott Adams. It’s just kind of funny to say science is one of the creators of Dilbert that he is the creator of Dilbert. .. It’s a lot about kind of understanding how the mind works and all the ways and how just being able to relate to other people. It’s been very helpful in terms of like with that empathy aspect that I was talking about earlier I think it’s just it’s really interesting to know how where people are having the cognitive dissonance where they’re having sort of these where they’re finding confirmation and trying to navigate within them. Because humans are humans and that’s how we operate. And so it’s a really good book and it’s kind of a fun read. It’s a little bit a lot of his predictions on the 2016 election but he uses that as kind of the case study to talk about these other issues the hugging of science.

: Interesting. When big leaves so don’t worry about writing that down listeners just go to outcomesrocket.health/overlap and you’ll be able to find all the show notes links to the book as well as a transcript of our discussion today. It’s been a tough one David if you can just leave us with some closing thoughts. And then the best place for the listeners to get in touch with you.

: For some closing thoughts. Well I think, definitely check at overlap for overlaphealth.com. But the thing I think I would just tell your listeners is just to really try to focus on empathy, trying to focus on trust, try to focus on rebuilding that relationship that’s been broken starting from that perspective I think we can figure out how to and listening to people from why I’d broken for them. I think will present itself with so much opportunity to change the open to change. Don’t have any ego. Just do what’s right for people and money and opportunities will present itself and always does follow .. and people who really focus on having a big vision and trying to meet people when they’re at so that’s how I close.

: That’s a great message David. And where were the listeners reach you or follow you?

: They can follow me on my blog that’s davidhhaddad.com. I’m not really big on social media. So you know you can also find me on Twitter but really you know.

: No worries.

: I have been killing off those social media inone o these days so. Yeah that’s from there go to overlaphealth.com I don’t know. Send me an email david@overlaphealth.com. Just say hi, I will always respond on my emails that’s for your to reach me.

: Hey this has been a ton of fun. Really appreciate this refocused that you did with us today. You know focusing on relationships over transactions and scaling trust so appreciate your words of wisdom brother and super excited to stay in touch.

: Thank You.

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