Why Being Where Your Customers are Matters in Healthcare with Lucien Engelen, Director REshape Center at Radboudumc

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Why Being Where Your Customers Matters in Healthcare with Lucien Engelen, Director REshape Center at Radboudumc

Why Being Where Your Customers are Matters in Healthcare with Lucien Engelen, Director REshape Center at Radboudumc

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

Welcome back once again to the Outcomes Rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. Today I have Lucien Engelen he's a Director at Reshape center Radboudumc and Global Strategist Digital Health Deloitte Center for the Edge. He's working at the intersection of technology and patient empowerment. This is where he really hit his stride. He's a founding director at the Radboud University Medical Center's reshape center. He's a fellow at the Deloitte Center for the edge. Core Faculty at Exponential medicine that's the Singularity University group based out of Silicon Valley. His new book augmented healthcare is all about the end of the beginning. He thinks that we're at the end of the beginning of an era of creating awareness, highlights, proof of concept etc. in the digital transformation of healthcare. He's done a lot from hosting TedX conferences speaker at the TED conferences and he's delivered a lot of value through various different startups roles that he's fulfilled. So it's a pleasure to have Lucien on the podcast today and I want to open up the microphone to you Lucien to fill in any of the gaps of the introduction that I may have missed.

Well thank you very much, Saul. The only thing that we should add is that I'm proud dad four.

That's awesome

And a lovely wife of course making sure that we had besides all the fun thing that we can do in our work which actually is not work but more kind of a mission and a great joy to be in at this moment in time. Also trying to spend time with my family of course.

That's beautiful. That's a beautiful thing. So you've been in the health care space for a while, Lucien. What is it that made you decide to get into it to begin with?

Well first of all I'm from a business family. We were in automotive. We sold cars we had gas stations. We also had a few new undertaking services and also ambulance services which back in the days was pretty normal in the Netherlands you could see it were they were combination of activities that kind of fit in. You could not think of that any more. Now in the 2018s that that will be a common thing at least in the Netherlands. And that was more mostly involved at the funeral site of it and the ambulance services. And when we sold companies due to the fact that we thought there should be also some other things and also other meaning into it. I pursued in the ambulance sphere for over 35 years involved as a director and also create all kinds of mergers and acquisitions and building despite Centaurus for I think like 25 years in total and the last thing I did we merged a couple of ambulance services and a dish center in a foundation. And as the CEO of that foundation, after five years I thought well you know now somebody was coming up and watching the shop actually and I'm more like a builder. And that's when I joined Robert University Medical Center in 2008 trying to reshuffle the acute health care services over there. Also responsible for the trauma helicopter. We made sure that the thing also was able to fly in the dark with these night vision goggles which was also an interesting project that we can tell you and gradually also for my role as advisor to the the exclusive were stepped into healthcare innovation and at first for a couple of hours and one day and now it's like seven days 24/7. One of the biggest joys of my life apart from my family.

That is such a wonderful, wonderful story. Lucien and you know now you're spending this life's work and as you call that it's not work it's actually a mission. When you hit that point where were what you do every day becomes a mission you don't even feel it that's when you know you hit your sweet spot. It doesn't happen overnight folks. You know Lucien's been in this game for a while as you heard in his intro. And so I'm really excited to hear your thoughts. Lucien on what you think a hot topic that needs to be on every medical leaders agenda today. What is that topic and how are you and your companies approaching it?

Well that's a choice to make to be honest the only choices I could make would be patients which seems so obvious and each and everyone that stepped into healthcare from a nursing perspective or from a physician perspective or as an administrator everybody wants to serve patients as good as possible. What I sensed however when I joined is coming from a business family is the approach of patients and family and their informal care which is mostly from I know what this patient needs. And we've seen numerous reports and studies actually a couple of weeks ago again surfaced another study that mentions that the average physician interrupts their patients within 11 seconds when they start talking about what they need at least that they think what their patients need. So what we've done everything that we also created within a reshape center is that at first every project we start starts with the patient and their family right from the get go. So this is not something like So let's create a project and then somewhere down the middle or at the end let's call in some patients or family and let's have them reflect on it really starting it off from the first moment in time and you could call that human centered design or design thinking or server design or whatever name you want to call it. It is acting from the perspective of the ones who matters the most. Which sounds obvious again about the things we've seen is that with all good intentions in that medical process often the strong signals about mechanisms of disease, about symptoms and all kinds of other things get the most attention and the weak signals where patients share what their values are and what they like to most of them get tucked away for good reasons. at one end of which so try to do is to emphasize those bring that into play. And with that also created better adherence from B to treatments and the exercises or say the whole intervention's of it. So again also it sounds obvious. I still think that there a lot to do and I actually think that the let's say and I'm using this in my keynotes right now that the user interface that we have built in healthcare is broken. If you reflect on that from for instance what we see in our everyday life things are completely different. To give you an example if you were I would order something at 11 a.m. at Amazon Prime we would get grumpy if its not been delivered by tonight.

Right.

That's what we got used to. If we take our smartphone if that's an iPhone or an Android doesn't matter the user interface is as easy that you almost don't have to explain it.

Right.

And in healthcare the majority of the processes we have to explain to our patients and it's a bit like a joke. If you have to explain the joke it's not funny enough anymore. So. We need some social recalibration of the process of healthcare with everything else that's happening in society.

Lucien. Now you bring up a really great point. I mean we recently had a guest that walked us through his company trusty.care where he's helping seniors get access to Medicare because it's so confusing. So to your point the user interface is broken and it's a shame but it's also an opportunity right. So how do we start approaching this in your mind who fixes it. Who does this fall on and what can we do to make it better?

Well first of all I don't think this is a right or wrong kind of thing. It's more like over time we now have tools we got technology got experiences. Our society has moved on where the way we deliver health care. Like two centuries ago was great for them. And if we would have the same tools only today it still would be great but we've moved on. I something to reflect on it also from a distance like we did with banking. There was nothing wrong with banks and tellers and the buildings that you have to go into. At that point in time. But now nobody could imagine that you would have to go to a bank to do a transfer. And I think the same is true in healthcare. So to your question Who is going to fix it. I think the patients are going to fix it. What you see right now is that the combination of patients and given tools into their hands just to name one. Apple is launching in the U.S. right now their personal health records. In the operating system of the iPhones. This is the same commodity as your calculator, as your notepad, as your camera in your smartphone and within five years from now nobody even recognizes anymore that there was a moment in time where we did not have our medical records on our phone. And not only from that one hospital which is now the case with that portal and their app no one app that has all the holistic approach on that. So what I think that's happening and that's where healthcare. I think also needs a bit of help is that this is coming from outside in.

Yeah.

At first neglect these kind of things like the things that Amazon is doing right now in the healthcare space. We've all seen what happened with the acquisition of Whole Foods and the initiative with J.P. Morgan and Berkshire for their one point one million employees where they now start delivering health care and asking Atul Gawande of all people to join them who we did. And recently last week. So because Grove former CEO of the Cleveland Clinic George Google cloud. So at first we neglect these kind of things and then all of a sudden we start to realize this is getting serious. And that's where exactly the same will happen as we've seen happening in the travel industry, in music, in entertainment, in news. And recently also for instance in mobility like what happened with Uber where the former cab driver said no no these travelers just want to travel only with us as trusted parties and we know where that went. So I think helps need it. I think the help is now coming from a completely different angle than some of us have expected. It's coming from tech titans. It's coming from transformational firms also like Detroit that is stepping in and helping organizations to make that digital transformation. What also happened in retail and in banking and I think health care is next.

Now it's interesting and also I would add consumer focused companies such as Walmart. Yes. Right.

So I think Wal-Mart is trying to tip their toes in the water for a couple of years. And I do trust that at one point in time they will surely step into it if I now however look into what Amazon is doing and the pace and the investments and the steps that they're making within a very short period of time. From a new book I've created this graph where I pictured all the announcements of nontraditional healthcare players. Over the course of a year with announcements of them stepping into healthcare and that's getting pretty scary I can tell you that's really an exponential curve right now and I see a lot of companies in there about for instance not a company like Walmart.

Now it's interesting they're moving a lot slower but you know, folks, the other thing that I want to highlight for you is Lucien book. It's called Augmented Health(care)™: "the end of the beginning". If you haven't had a chance to check this out this is one that you definitely want to look into. You could find it on Amazon and pretty much anywhere you could get books. Is it available on audio yet?

Not yet I'm in the process of narrating it. I thought it made sense to do it myself but it takes a bit of time. So to the title Augmented Health and care and the smaller print because.

Yeah why did you do that?

You know we really have to make a shift from healthcare to health at least in the Netherlands 90 percent of the total annual budget goes into fixing stuff.

Yeah.

Well we know that from a preventive aspect. We can do a lot more and prevent things to occur and that has to change business models and that's not something that happens overnight of course. But I really do want to stress out that we really should strive for a better health in that and the augmented aspect of the title is that from all the data that is now getting collected on a much more high fidelity as ever before. We're now running from spot measurement where you will be called into a hospital into a continuously monitoring by your smartwatch or the based on the hip as somebody recently called it. So that brings in different approaches. You have to translate that data into information and maybe even visualisations. And then from three pillars one would be medicine create meaning for it. The other one will be from a care perspective your home delivered by care companies. And the third one will be lifestyle. And those three combines for me create an augmented layer surrounding the patients. And even before you become a patient to make better choices and better judgments of the things that are happening and it could prevent us from running into a life event for your friends.

It's a very interesting framework Lucien and folks will leave a link for Lucien's book and the podcast Schoenaerts. He definitely comes with a lot of different insights and experience that I think we can all pull a little something or a lot from. And so really appreciate your walking us through that Lucien. Can you give the listeners an example of a time that you created results or improved outcomes by doing things differently?

Sure. One of my favorite examples is however from a couple of years ago this was at the fairly at the early start of our REshape center where one of my colleagues who is a professor in medical oncology stepped up to me while she was busy creating an outpatient clinic for adolescent young adults with cancer. So these would be kids in the age of 18 to 35 suffering from whatever kind of cancer and they would have special needs. They would typically be too old for children's oncology and actually too young for grown oncology and not specific not only in treatment but also in the things that matter to them. This is an age that you start building relationships sexuality it's about your work. It's about your education, finance these kind of stuff so she thought it made sense to create this outpatient clinic specifically for them on a nationwide scale. And she stepped up to me she said I need something digital. These kids are completely digital. And this is what I think we need. We need a website and there should be side effects and there should be treatment options and there should be all kinds of things that she thought that were needed. And we said sure but so let's ask them what they need and then she said no that's not needed. I know what they want and we made a thing out of this shole we said there's no way we're going to build something first and then step up to them. We think it makes sense to first join them listen to them thoroughly what they need and then facilitate them in building the platform. Yes. And this was really an argument where she kind of bent over and said so I'm an oncologist for 25 years and you're saying I don't know what my patients need? And I said no that's not the case. But maybe there some of this what I now like to call weak signals that could help them and us to buy into that system.

Yes.

That we could jointly create a bigger adherents so in the end of the day we've pursued together with her and it's one of my big favorite friends ever since and we've built that network and the platform is now being enrolled nationwide is now going to the UK and also into the Nordics. So.

That's awesome.

As simple as this sounds it was hard. This went almost up to the board. I can tell you. So this is not something from process it's not about technology. It's also about culture. And I think culture is an animal in healthcare that is blocking a lot of things and I don't think that technology often is the barrier anymore and sure enough we need more evidence for some of the things that are happening right now and some of them will be copying, some of them won't work. But if you really look at that user interface and listen really listen what's needed. I think we could achieve big things for not a lot of money extractors.

Lucien and very insightful what a great story too and it's sort of that that area that we often run into you pinpointed that space where, look you have professionals in a space: physicians, nurses at No and in air quotes. What's wrong. And then you have the patient that has their story and they know their story and the way that they live their life. Let's listen to those weaker signals because they oftentimes are what we need to hit that tipping point to create something that will work. And I asked the question a lot Lucien and to our guys like tell me by the time you had a setback and what you learned from it and one of the things that comes up so often Lucien is this exact example that you gave except the opposite where they built it and nobody came.

Go figure

And they happened so often. So I've got to ask. You've been around the block several times. You know the game and the patients at the center of it oftentimes it's hard to collect feedback like what kind of advice would you give to the listeners and getting the feedback. I mean you do it digitally? Do you do it by picking up the phone, surveys like how do you do it? What's the best way?

So first of all I think there is no best way. The things in your Midwest might be completely different than for us in the Netherlands.

Yeah.

I think the generic answer should be: be where your patient and their family are. And if they are on Facebook, go on Facebook. If they are spending time in your waiting rooms or in the works be there. If they are in an age or in a situation that you know that they're heavily involved on the Internet, be there if you know that they are using apps. So my answer would be not typical one. It's more like be where they are. And one of the things we did actually was that ideally wanted to make sure that we got this right. So I appointed I think the for every first chief listening officer in health care back then which is in 2010 their names Corinne Jansa and she did a tremendous job in being able to just listen to her patients have to say and every project that we would ignite would start with her working on that. But from that start we figured out all kinds of other constraints that they have in all the other processes like in the on boarding for outpatient clinics or the pre-op or post op kind of things. So making sure that you have that listening part good is I think the most important one. And the interesting thing is if you ask patients to join you in such a process we've never been disappointed by the outcomes. We've never been disappointed due to the fact that we had too little or less patience for it. They really love to help us improve healthcare. So we're using all the tools that you just mentioned but completely different in some sectors sometimes from demographics something from location based, sometimes from disease based that it makes sense to do something different or use something different technology.

Lucien, so insightful. Be where they are folks. And there's no one size fits all. And you know this I recently had Corbin Petro's she's president and CEO at Benevera Health and she told a story when she was a youngster her dad was in government in Ohio and she remembers one summer attending 72 different county fairs in Ohio and she went and got to know the perspectives of the constituents of the state. And the insight was that everybody was so different and it takes me back to this political campaign you know in politics people go where they are and get those insights and such an insightful comment, Lucien. I really appreciate that and I think that listeners if you got what you should have gotten out of this you will find it very insightful. If you missed it maybe you've got the distracted that hit the rewind by and by 30 seconds and start again because this is really good. Lucien, how about on the other side. You want to share a setback that you had and what you learned from it?

Oh yeah. So again this is a choice to make because there are so many maybe the best thing is, it's not 2018. I think 2012 we've seen all kinds of new technology come up like the iPad for instance where we would be gimmicking and laughing and making fun out of the fact that I could video call you from the tablet and first playing fiddling around with it also said wait a minute what if we could use this technology for bringing in patients that don't have to be here physically all the time. And it really is an energy drowner for a lot of patients to come from their home to the hospital. We all know how that works. So to picture the historical setting that's called like that. Yeah. Those were the days where we had these polycom video conference systems in the boardroom that cost like 20k and you could do with it after you've called in an ideal specialist was to phone and call the different university medical hospital if you got things right. So that was the setting back then. So we said wait a minute if this technology is able to help why not try it. So we went on a stroll as in our day companies are already doing that and it was early days technology was crappy but also there was no reimbursement. As you can imagine for that legislation most counterproductive into it's no certification whatsoever. So it took us like four or five years to create a product together with some companies that was kind of stable enough to do it. We were able to convince the government and the healthcare insurance that they also had to put in a tariff to make sure that it doesn't matter anymore. If you come in real life or through a video conferencing because in our system if you will sit at our desk that will be reimbursed if you would call in through video it wouldn't. So we were able to even change that. We were able to create certification shims for it. And actually I think we've got all everything right and then we thought so now it's going to hit the road and it completely didn't. And actually it's now 2018 and it still doesn't. So if you look into it there is evidence enough there is no barrier anymore in terms of reimbursement. There is no problem at the patient side because they would say hey guys I'm having a video conference with my grandkids or family or colleagues twice or three times a week. Why can't I have the same with my doctor? And we've tried everything. We've built a room specifically for our professionals so they could sit in there, great audio great lighting everything top notch and still not using it. So the sad bad occurred from two different angles that we weren't aware of. First of all, there still is in it 40% administrative burden for our colleagues. So they're almost more in administrative tasks and seeing patients and they have the feeling that this is something also in that perspective. They have to do a lot, it's not when you just have your outpatient clinics it's one patient after the other. It's your being used for it. You've been trained for it. Everything fits. The second thing is that the culture of patients changing the schedule and also the pace of professionals was also something that we underestimated. They thought that now the patients are making and stealing my schedule and basically they're not because we have created a completely digital waiting room for that. So overall we had some training in that we really had to recognize that this will take a generation actually and this will take a generation even though each and every one of them has multiple video calls a week with their colleagues, friends, family what have you but still not with patients. So they are from say well my patients don't want it. And that's the interesting thing in the Netherlands 76 percent of the patients. Yeah sure. Do it. I'm fine with it. And now there are actually patients calling into health care insurance, patients who are self-employed that would say wait a minute this would cost me a 800 buck a day to take a day off to make sure that they can't get into the hospital for this 10 minute visit. Why not learn the conference. So now patients are really stepping up and demanding this at their insurance organizations. And also at physicians.

Very fascinating. And then you get to the thought process of OK so there's some there's some chokeholds from the provider perspective and the practitioner. What about practice innovation right? You've seen a big shift to direct primary care models. Is this an opportunity for them to say hey you know what. We're willing to do it.

Absolutely. But the same applies here as well. These guys and girls are trained for like 7 or 17 years to do with and in their particular way. Secondly they they have been used to mitigating risks. Of course they have to, they're physicians their professional their nurses. So this is not an easy thing of course that you know you're running into and this literally physical distance running through technology is something that just takes time and the same old to be in terms of shifting and business and process models and in terms of primary care. I could easily imagine that this is going to happen more and more. But I kind of lost the what it's not the confere, the idea that this is going to be a quick fix which is not, although it could be a big fix for a lot of things. Let's be honest.

Yeah. Now super fascinating and a great example of just when you think you had all of the factors figured out there could always be more. And always a great lesson. Now what would you say one of your proudest leadership experiences in medicine has been, Lucíen?

Well I think that was the one that I've shared earlier on with our adolescent and young adults. I think that that's one of the examples that that really stands out because it also sets the bar for us where we say. So if this is the case then the changes that we can and have to make are simple they're not easy but they're simple. We often tend to think that it's way more complex than it is in the end of the day. But the complexity of all the constrains as in reimbursements and different silos that we've created in health care. So being able to do that and taking that as our core modus operandi within our center to me still is one of the aha moments or epiphanies that it is possible to change health care from inside out. And also from outside in. Now with all the technology that I'm confident that we will fix the user interface in the end of the day and by fixing user interface for health care also creating the hox as I like to call it the health care user experience for a lot of people. And actually I often talk about my four Ds where healthcare is changing. The first D will be the localization of healthcare that we're now able with technology deliver healthcare from a different place and moment in time. The second will D about a democratic nation a citizen or patient. We'll have way more data and we have as a university medical center. We only have like 5 percent of the data of our patients. The rest is outsider. Patients are now gathering that themselves. So we will take a subscription on the data of patients as opposed. Now we give them access to a bit of our portal and no portion the 30 would be about digital and that's not only about the technology framework but also about the speed. Now in the early days we needed a missionary and a boat to get something from Europe to Africa and now we could youtube. So the adoption rate in the end of the day from citizens and patients is dramatically increasing. And the last one then as the would be about dollars. This is about big companies trying to get a foot between the door investing tens or even hundreds of millions of dollars to make sure that they become part of this journey that we call health.

Yeah, such a great insightful framework that you provided there. And it's super interesting to hear how you've created stages for each one of these successions in health. Getting close to the end here, Lucien, let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course on what it takes to be successful in the business of healthcare today it's the 101 of Lucien Engelen and so I've got four questions lightning round style followed by a book that you recommend to the listeners. You ready?

Hmm-mm

What's the best way to improve healthcare outcomes?

I think the best way is to create health care right from the get go - together with patients, family and informal care so the whole system in the room.

What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?

To assume that you know what patients need.

Love that. How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?

Be curious. Look over the defense make sure that you take your nose also into other industries so make sure that you have crossed over. Go and visit a conference that has nothing to do with health care. Go into a plumbers association really Saul that I'm very serious about this. We tend to go to conferences where we know what is going to happen.

Yeah.

We're not even close to being challenged anymore. Go to a conference of a completely different sector in terms of neuromarketing or God knows what. So have you done this recently, Lucine?

I'm doing that once or twice a year and I'm judging each and every one in my team to do exactly the same. The thing is that you will come back with insights that you would never have had if you just would stay in your Passi conferences.

That is so interesting.

Go out. Stick your nose in somebody else's business and be amazed what you can learn from them.

I love that as so out of box I love that the last question here as well is one area of focus should drive everything in a health care organization?

The experience. So healthcare is not Disney although I dearly love the work of Fred Lee who was also one of my speakers at one of my first that exist who wrote the book "What if Disney run a hospital", a hospital is not Disney World but we could learn tons of hospitality and we just. More and more are running that and we now see that we have onboarding processes that are very similar to our experience when we book a flight which we're used to already. So the experience that patient's family and also visitors have is one of the areas where we think that we really should be able to drive the change for.

That is wonderful folks. You could find all these questions and answers on the website, particularly Lucien's podcast's page is outcomesrocket.health/lucien and that's Lucien. What book would you recommend to the listeners?

Well that's an easy one. I think it should be a standard work for each and every one working in healthcare. Eric Topol's "The patient will see you now". I think that Eric is not only the godfather of digital medicine but also is able to guide us and has guided us for numerous years into the change that's coming up in healthcare. If you also take into account the things that he has seen also as a physician himself and the great stories that are also in the book that should be on your desk right away.

Amazing will definitely put that on the scene. For those of you that have not read it it's an amazing book. Of course apart from Mr. Lucien's book Augmented health. Lucien, we're here at the end I'd love if you could just leave us with a closing thought and then the best place for the listeners can follow your work.

Yeah we're at the end. So again the subtitle of my book is the end of the beginning. It's a tongue in cheek to Winston Churchill's statement of course. Be amazed about the change that's coming up. A lot of people think that we're in the midst of it or at the end of it were not the overhaul of health care from a traditional service being delivered as separate interventions from different silos. It is going to transform into what I like to call HASS, which is health as a service. This will not come overnight. We will underestimate the speed of it. As Roy Amaar always said we will overestimate the speed that it can but underestimate the impact of it. And I think that's something that we all really should take into account. I got like 13000 colleagues and I really would love to have them to have a relevant job in 10 years from now. But that won't come easy. We really have to make sure that we will recalibrate with society.

Great great thought there. And what would you say the best place for people to your work is?

So I blog as I linkedin influencer on LinkedIn so find me with Lucien Engelen on LinkedIn. It's over 750,000 followers or something like that already. Next to that I also write a lot on my own website www.lucienengelen.com. And my Twitter handle is @lucienengelen as you can imagine.

Outstanding folks if you haven't had a chance to read Lucien's blogs fascinating and thought provoking. I highly recommend them. Lucien, this has been a true pleasure my friend. So glad that you joined us today and we're very thankful for you.

Thank you for the opportunity and have a great day.

Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.

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Recommended Book:

The Patient Will See You Now: The Future of Medicine Is in Your Hands

Best Way to Contact Lucien:

Twitter: @lucienengelen

Linkedin: Lucien Engelen

Mentioned Link/s:

http://lucienengelen.com/

Lucien's book: Augmented Health(care)™: "the end of the beginning"

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