Healthcare Insights From Asia
Episode 447

Gavin Teo, Partner at B Capital Group

Healthcare Insights From Asia

We are now in a global economy and healthcare has become global as well. Whatever the size of your organization is, your first priority is to focus on solving a problem that can help the community, then you can work on expanding your business into other regions.         

 

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Healthcare Insights From Asia

Episode 447

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Healthcare Insights From Asia with Gavin Teo, Partner at B Capital Group transcript powered by Sonix—the best audio to text transcription service

Healthcare Insights From Asia with Gavin Teo, Partner at B Capital Group was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the latest audio-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors. Sonix is the best way to convert your audio to text in 2019.

Saul Marquez:
Welcome back to the Outcomes Rocket, Saul Marquez here and it is such a privilege to have a guest here for the second time around. His name is Gavin Teo. He’s a healthcare V.C investor and has been for the last eight years. Partner at B Capital Group for the last four years, leading global healthcare practice and an investor at Comcast Ventures for five years beforehand focused on health care and frontier technologies. If you guys haven’t had a chance to listen to our first interview, which was about a year and a half ago, go back, go to outcomes rocket that health type in Gavin Teo. That’s t-e-o and you’ll hear the incredible interview. In fact, if you haven’t listened to it, I recommend that you listen to that one before you listen to this one. We talked about the health care economy and some extraordinary insights into Asia and the thing that he things that he’s working on. Recently, he relocated to Singapore, which is where he’s at right now. So big things for him for happen on a Saturday in the morning so shows his commitment to what he’s doing. He’s working on launching an early stage V.C fund focused on health and wellness, not ready to announce the name yet, but lots of good things to come. He serves as board director to SilverCloud Health, which you’ve heard of here, as well as Bright.md, you’ve heard of as well, CXA, a health benefits platform, Fish brain, Galen Growth Asia and also CO co-manages Big Cap Investments in my eye, it’s a cardiac care company, notable labs and the nation health and a motive. Its self-driving cars. OK, this is just the beginning. We’re going to dive into some good stuff. So with that, Gavin, I just want to give you a welcome to the podcast once again. So glad you could join us.

Gavin Teo:
Saul, thank you so much for the warm introduction and for having me back on. It’s absolute pleasure to be partnering with you on this.

Saul Marquez:
Absolutely. So So, Gavin, we, you know, the last time you were on, it was just like mind blowing. I learned a ton of stuff from you and so do, our so do and our listeners. The biggest takeaway was healthcare is is just an economy. You know, it’s not a vertical. And today I hope to learn more in that area. You know, globalization of healthcare, healthcare tech, what’s on your mind lately?

Gavin Teo:
So I I’ve been really focused about thinking about problems of global healthcare and what are investable areas where technology can come to bear to really improve the quality of care and drive outcomes. As we shared, I recently moved back to Singapore. Singapore is a small country in Southeast Asia with about 5 million people, but it sits in a sea of people that are all very rapidly entering middle class status. And with that comes the need for health care consumption and the need for more types of innovative care models that include technology to deliver supply against a lot of demand and questions of both access and payment need to be solved. And we’re far from solving those questions in the US and North America but I think there’s recognition of the need for different sectors of the economy to come together and help to build new solutions in many other parts of the world. It’s far earlier on that, Thank you. And so one of the things I’d love to chat about today are some of these global trends. I’m not just in Southeast Asia where I’m sitting, but also in Europe and North America, of course, where, you know, global healthcare has become part of the global economy and a really important part of it. And that’s something that excites me.

Saul Marquez:
Now, that’s for sure. And and so what is it that inspires you? Gavin? Mike? Well, what is that inspires you to be in this work?

Gavin Teo:
First and foremost, it is about working with fantastic entrepreneurs as well as intrapreneurs and executives who are doing great things at large healthcare organizations. My role as a venture investors to identify support and most importantly, you know, be part of a greater team that helps to bring new businesses that are disrupting and transforming new markets in healthcare to the global stage. So we supply capital, we try and support with expertise. But first and foremost, it’s about people. And what gets me really fired up every day is working with entrepreneurs, the CEOs, the founders and the management teams of some of the companies that you mentioned and others not in our portfolio that just inspire me to do my best work and help them achieve their goals as they as a bring totally new approaches to solving some really tough questions and delivering health care outcomes.

Saul Marquez:
I love it, Gavin. And you know the topic of globalisation’s big Right.. and I feel like a lot of companies, a lot larger ones have have really it’s cemented right.. They’re doing and it’s part of their strategy. And so what about the mid-size to smaller companies? What do you what do you say to them?

Gavin Teo:
Yeah, you’re absolutely right. I think there there are a lot of great companies globally in healthcare, particularly in life science, that are thinking about global markets in a fairly sophisticated way. I think the same is true in medtech as well. And I think it stems from the fact that these are businesses that bring in a products and technical services to market where the user base is, the healthcare industry is the value chain and ultimately the end reimbursable use case that sits globally. Right, so whether that’s some European companies that are selling in the U.S. or American companies selling globally. I think that if you if you look at the middle market or you look at startups that are a much earlier, they tend to and rightfully so, you know, focus on one problem and solving it well, you know, focus is absolutely the critical set of first steps in order to make a sustainable business to do something that’s unique and differentiated. And I think geographic considerations around how soon to go global is often a point of tension because it requires resources and it requires time and energy invested in understanding a new market that could be quite far away from home. And I think the message that I might have for startup entrepreneurs that are wrestling with those dynamics is to really recognize that healthcare is already a global industry. So to be thoughtful about how to go about expanding from your home market to new areas is something that you have to do. And I think being thoughtful and to plan ahead for for when to take that first step into a new geographic markets. It’s critical not not to do that without the adequate preparation, but to realize that it is and should be a very important part of one strategy. And to give you an example of that, you know, in part of the world where I spent a lot of time right now in Southeast Asia, there are about 750 million people across the region and so it’s a very diverse set of individual countries with their own healthcare rules, regulations and stages of development as it pertains to cost of care, availability of care, what’s considered accessible and an adequate supply, and what is still needing and requiring a lot more investments and a digital health, health, technology companies or even early stage research organizations that are thinking about new applications in drug development.These these businesses, I think have have a mindset of starting in one place, like, for example, Singapore, where you do have corporate structures and financing availability and kind of depth of technical and science talent that is is similar to the US, but on a smaller scale. And then they think about how to expand into adjacent markets like Indonesia, which is the fourth most populous country in the world with close to 300 million in population, almost the size of the U.S. alone. But where the challenges of entering that market due to the fragmentation of supply chains, the just geographic scale of the country, it’s an island chain with over a thousand individual islands so getting care distributed or getting any sort of sort of logistics requires a different mindset and scale to overcoming some of those challenges. But on top of that, it’s a country that’s just entering middle income status. So it’s you know, as we’ve as we sort of frame and think about GDP per capita and where healthcare fits on the hierarchy of needs in the presence of, you know, other areas where people spend the energy and time, but also where it’s actually required to focus on those things that, you know, just just like in the developed world, the prevalence of lifestyle diseases like diabetes significantly are on the rise. And so, you know, companies here in this region that maybe start in one market have to think and do think quite quickly about expanding to other markets that could look very very different even when they are small and mid-sized. And I think that’s a healthy healthy set of issues to weigh and to grapple and think about when to start to expand and how aggressively.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, that’s a great insight. Gavin, and what would you say is is one of the biggest challenges in making that move for a U.S. based company?

Gavin Teo:
So for U.S. based company, I think it is figuring out what is the unique product market fit for what you bring to the market that can solve something in a unique way that a local incumbent or perhaps existing way of doing things which may be inadequate consumption of healthcare and any by any measure needs to be overcome in order for your product or service to be successful. So maybe if I could break that down by some segment or some vertical within health care. I think in the case of a life science drug discovery, manufacturing distribution often is a question of price, right? and so a lot has been written around the strategy around marketing and pricing, the same compound under different trade names, under no generic classifications after some time has passed. And I think a lot of thought is already given to what’s the right level to localize product in different markets based on local propensity to reimburse and to pay. And I think that’s that’s important. I also think that in this day and age, when we look at compound therapeutics, personalized care, digital therapeutics where software is combined with traditional therapeutic and then drug that there are interesting new combinations that can be lower cost, highly efficacious and perhaps more directly applicable to a mobile first generation that, you know, is entering healthcare where the expectation of some kind of tela or virtual model of delivery through the mobile device is already kind of very well and trenched in sort of the local consumer psyche, right? versus and in the West, where, you know, the pharma pharmacy and TBM of axis of delivering, distributing, and paying for drugs, this is much more common and it’s off line outside of mobile and tech in many ways. And so, you know, combining different pricing models for, you know, a drug that required billions for Andy to bring to market. And so it’s absolutely maintaining the adequate and appropriate profit margins there, but combining it with different methods, different forms of tela models of distribution or or compliance or virtual care in the form of both traditional offline as well as online mechanisms, I think could be an interesting way to tailor product to market. I think the same could be said for four medtech and med device. Obviously more of A B to B versus B to B to C setting. But but I think, you know, those considerations are being well thought out. I think where its earlier days is outside of perhaps life science and device and diagnostics and it’s in areas like provider software or areas like health payment and health insurance and I think here, you know, the track record of American companies or perhaps the developed and Western based Western headquartered healthcare companies entering international markets that look quite foreign. Now here it’s been a little bit more tentative and I think it’s starting to pick up for sure. I mean one of the reasons why, you know, this is maybe a little bit slower than the life science world is, frankly, that if I break them up to kind of health provider services and software associated with that versus the payment of healthcare and the of insurance world. The former, I think tends to be quite local, right? I mean, health systems tend to be in many ways local monopolies in the US and there’s plenty of what to chop in those local markets. When we think about some of the changes around the ACA, the movement from fee for service fees for value, just that the pressure on profit margins of all of these businesses in the territories. But I think, you know, with healthcare consolidation, I think we’ve seen that play out there. There are already examples of many health systems that are crossing state lines and, you know, many ways regulations going from one state in the US don’t understand the US is is is already a akin to an international move with regards to this type of understanding of local licensure and payment mechanisms and local marketing and developing a brand and things like that, let alone the physical capital expenditure of putting a hospital on the ground and staffing around it. And I think, you know, increasingly we’ll start to see, you know, U.S. Canada, U.S. Mexico. And I think that the global nature of healthcare provider services is that people are more similar than they are different lifestyle diseases on the rise globally. I think it’s harder for U.S. health system to make the jump to Southeast Asia all at once. But certainly thinking about, you know, what are what are new adjacent markets, maybe starting in specialty care, medical tourism, you know, moving from that into, you know, kind of more common modalities of primary care using a combination of technology, yeah, these are ways that healthcare provider systems, larger and smaller, can think about global expansion at the right time. And then finally, to round out the comment on the health payer side, you know, I think we’re seeing U.S. companies that are, you know, the likes of United Healthcare, that the very largest payers and then maybe outside of health insurance, more kind of life insurance type businesses start to think globally. I think this has been the case in case in Europe for quite a while. So it’s the kind of meeting health insurers in Europe, like the bootless of the world that sit on top of national health systems and provide kind of insurance rider for private care. I mean, they are already global businesses and, you know, market aggressively in Southeast Asia as an example. Less so in the U.S, I think the U.S. has its has its leaders and are well-entrenched and well established and continue to innovate as well. But I think, you know, if we think about many parts of the world where health insurance is relatively new, the types of products that people are buying tend to resemble critical illness insurance or stop loss insurance than payment for healthcare services. And if I were to characterize the difference, it’s things like, you know, if you buy a life insurance product, should something negative healthwise or or non healthwise, unplanned for accident or emergency, be something that that person has to deal with. There is a lump sum payment or some amount of financial coverage tied to a policy. So it’s really triggered based on adverse events, whereas I think health insurance in the U.S. at least how we understand it is really more driven by volume and consumption. So the more you need to consume, the more you see the doctor, the more you see primary specialty tertiary care. Then that gets built to insurance company or to employer and it’s it’s, you know, on an ongoing basis with degrees and caps and co-pays and things like that. And I think the latter, as we understand in the North America, at least, this is still a fairly sophisticated and convoluted product to distribute globally, whereas life insurance, you know, where you’re getting paid for a single event is something that people understand and tying that to healthcare events, you know, like the loss of a job due to hospitalization and just a direct payment related to that. These are the sorts of intermediate products and product formulations that I think people in many other parts of the world are already used to buying. And so, you know, that kind of localization and tailoring are considerations for, you know, perhaps U.S. health insurance companies are thinking about going globally with their first kind of fate phase of products that they’re underwriting. So different answers depending on which sub vertical within health and we can go much deeper into any of them. But I think, you know, the most forward thinking entrepreneurs, they’re looking at transformed industries and compete with incumbents in these areas are already kind of thinking along these lines with regards to tailoring their product to be successful across borders.

Saul Marquez:
Some great commentary and, you know, thinking about the types of insurance that exist globally. Probably the reason why it’s mainly like critical illness and stop loss is because it’s mainly single payer, right? funded by the government?

Gavin Teo:
Yeah. I think that’s one of the key reasons as to why the market has evolved for health insurance in the way that we’ve just discussed. So you’re right. I think when you have a an incumbent government sponsored an extensive health system like, say, the National Health Service, the NHS in the UK. Then private insurance sitting on top of that, you know, it is often more of an afterthought or a nice to house. And so kind of simplifying that offering for critical illness like a payout schema. I think it’s something that right now is more of a natural extension. But, you know, I think many parts of the world don’t have what looked like the NHS. All right. I think the NHS is considered a very good example of integrated care provider, right? It’s true, I.D.ed in the sense of a Kaiser or Centro or I should say at Concordia in the US. And, you know, a flavor of that would be Health Canada, right? Where you have a single payer but multiple providers, private privatize provision but centralized payment. But in many parts of the world you have neither. It’s just the complete lack of, right? And so becomes entirely privatized and only made available to certain high personal pay customers and patients. And I think that’s the case for many parts of the developing world. They may on paper have a single payer system, but that single payer system is perhaps not fully functional to the level that can provide adequate care. And so even in these environments, when, you know you know, health systems do privatize and do offer parallel systems to to the government. I think you’re starting to see we are observing kind of early onset and introduction of some of these sort of types of insurance models that we that we described.

Saul Marquez:
You know, Gavin, I think it’s a great call out that you made because you think single payer, but you don’t automatically think single provider, you know, your comparison between the NHS in Canada and then taking us back to the Asian market. It’s it’s interesting and you have to think about that. I mean, so in Asia, is it. Is it single payer but multiple providers? or what’s the lay of the land or varies where you go?

Gavin Teo:
Yeah, I would say in most cases it is one dominant payer not necessarily single but it’s a government tax funded and multiple providers. So more like the Canada model than the UK model. And I think that in in Asia, which is a fragmented region and you know, it is not not not suppose you know what one one sort of arc type. But many, many different types, kind of depending on the market in which you operate. Many ways like Europe, right? more than like the US in terms of market structure. There are, if you might kind of simplified down to kind of two camps. So they are very, very large and developing economies that are emerging rapidly and bringing hundreds of millions of people into middle class status. And these are countries like Indonesia that has close to 200 million people or or Vietnam that has 100 million people, the Philippines that has a 100 million people as well that in combination you’ll make up the bulk of the population of Southeast Asia and actually a big, big contributor to overall population of Asia, including China. And these are markets where there is a real need for access to care. And so whether it’s government policy or private industry responding to that need, it’s about bringing more supply online to meet the demands of, you know, half a billion people in the healthcare consumption requirements. And I think there’s another part of Asia which looks a lot more like Singapore with 5 million people or Hong Kong with 7 million people, or markets like Taiwan, where these are developed economies that have a functioning, centralized, single payer and often, you know, government parallel single provider or dominant provider system that works not without its stresses and strains just like the NHS, but one where, you know, a basic provision of health care services is already at some level of adequacy. And I think here, the challenges are more around payments and accessibility as opposed to just purely the provision of care. How do you get different types of models to fit different types of needs? Know the I think that the level of population health in many of these markets measured by things like wait times or even infant mortality. I mean, they’re already at very much First-World levels. But the kind of the questions are how do you prevent conditions before they become major issues, whether it’s diabetes or kidney failure or other lifestyle diseases? and or how do you get best in class care, you know, within the four walls of the hospital and then post discharge for more complicated cases as people live longer and deal with more chronic illness. I think these are the sorts of questions that, you know, some of these more developed health care markets, much smaller ones, but more developed ones are grappling with in Southeast Asia as example. And I think here different, different models that sit at the intersection of technology enabled services. And then ultimately some of these more in a bit of payment models that are starting to make their way into these markets will be an important piece of the answer.

Saul Marquez:
Gavin, have you thought about writing a book about the healthcare in the Asian markets?

Gavin Teo:
You know, I would love to explore that with yourself. I think there’s lots that we can do when it comes to, you know, combining our perspectives from operating in different markets. Now, you’ve done a lot in Europe and all across the US as well. So I do think, you know, we’re in partnership and collaboration. There’s certainly opportunity to share ideas and use that as a sounding board and a rallying cry for other people to also chime in. And I think, you know, your podcast does that more than anyone else and kind of really the forefront of thinking in healthcare with regards to writing personally, to be honest, I’ve written a number of articles on kind of the continuum of care and the pathway of getting the right level of care, both from a personal standpoint and one of the if I may share reasons I moved back to Singapore and spending more time here is for family reasons that both my parents have gone through a lot and have been frequent flyers in the local healthcare system here in Singapore, which has been treated them very, very well but for very different reasons. And I think comparing contrasting that journey, that patient journey from diagnostic to treatment, to post-discharge, to payment and to ongoing recovery as part of a population of patients. I think there’s a lot of interesting learnings and I think the US does things fantastically well, but it does it in a very expensive way. And I think if you can afford it and you know how to advocate for yourself, and I think with the benefit of a lot of that and any types of technologies that can help to take the patient through different channels to get great care using online tools. We’re privileged in the US to have a lot of that available. I think in the rest of the world it’s still relatively early, right? And resources and availability of being able to throw more, more, more different types of of resources at the issue, whether there are financial or technology or others. These are relative luxuries. And so I think, you know, other ways to get back to first principles on how to change behavior, how to manage your population, but also kind of individualized here so that people feel that they are getting that level of treatment and that the right focus on their particular cases. It’s a delicate balance and I think some of these insights across markets can be helpful. Whether you are an entrepreneur or an executive sitting in the US, think about global considerations or whether you’re an individual and a counterpart or a patient seeking care in other parts of the world, like Southeast Asia, where I sit today.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah. No, I appreciate that, Gavin. And, you know, glad to hear that your folks are getting and taking care of well over there. And when you mentioned, you know, if you can afford it. I just saw a statistic and then if you can advocate for yourself, I just saw that statistic plummet even further than just thinking, oh, man, you know, it’s a challenge. It’s a big challenge. And when you mentioned earlier in our talk providers and and sort of, you know, that that medical tourism. It’s interesting. You know, I mean, I was we had a chat earlier. I was just in in Chile and, you know, in the airport. I had a connection in Panama. I had a big sign, Mayo Clinic. And you get down to Chile. I had had a couple visits at a few hospitals down there. They’re telling me about how United is Air now. It’s recent and they’re expanding in a big way. You know, there’s there’s healthcare is global and and you you say it requires global solutions. And I’m and I’m curious if you had to lay out kind of like a three step plan for for the people listening, you know? How do you how do you do it? What does that plan look like? And and maybe you could add a common pitfall in that in that idea.

Gavin Teo:
Yeah, absolutely and I’d love to get your thoughts as well based on what you’re seeing in Charlotte and other markets on how this question of go to market and setting a company up for success with a thought out strategy is starting to bear fruit, whether it’s united or other companies. But I think if I were to put a label on the three steps to being successful in new market entry, it is starting with innovation, then expanding into partnership, and then finally into an acquisition, whether that’s directly or through inorganic and M&A means. And maybe to highlight that with with an example in healthcare, one that I’m familiar with here in Asia, there’s a company called Tencent that you may be familiar with, major Chinese chat platform, often described as the Facebook of China. And in addition to being a broad based social network, they also have a health innovation venture or a division called Tencent we doctor and and we talked really a chat platform for patients to get their questions asked with real physicians with some degree of A.I. base intermediation that can help to essentially streamline and maybe even keep a set of questions on fairly set type of rails. So that in the course of that patient interview, the key selling facts and what would show up in a doctor’s sope note get transferred to the provider on the other end. And then whether it’s some consultation or advice or a drug script comes out. And and it’s seen a lot of success in China. There’ve been other competitors as well, not just from the tech and call it social world, social media technology, consumer technology world, but also from the insurance world. There’s a company called Ping An, which is the biggest health insurer in China, not not dissimilar to United in terms of market power and market share in the US.

Saul Marquez:
What’s the name of it? Ping an?

Gavin Teo:
Ping an, which literally means peace in Chinese. They started as as a multi, multi personal line insurer. So they do a lot of a lot of life insurance as well and then have have a big health care book, health insurance book. And so, you know, they have a they have a product as well, keeping on good doctor, which is really a sort of a freemium chat app that’s used for similar purposes for it for people who are their policyholders, right, as a way to kind of get them into into the healthcare system through digital means. Both of these products, whether it’s we doctor or Pian good doctor, we’re innovations kind of coming back to that three step process that started with mobile first as being a way to extend care beyond the four walls of the hospital, and they had consumers track them and approach them in the modality that they’re really familiar with. You know, after launching that in China, which is already a very, very large market with its own kind of unique kind of go to market considerations. Tencent and Ping An on maybe just focusing on Tencent it to kind of round up the example, I thought about how to expand that into the rest of the region. So, you know, since, you know, started to partner with local health services, often single payer or government endorsed government sponsored partnerships. And so here in Singapore, for example, you know, there’s been much talked about kind of what they could do in partnership with the Ministry of Health here. And there’ve been other companies like Babille on Health and grab the former being, you know, the U.K. based A.I. of diagnosis chat-bot based product, its power in kind of city of London, in-bound on the nurse call line on primary care considerations and then grab, which is a ridesharing service provider like Uber that I’ve also shared some news publicly about their willingness to partner around using the grand mobile app, conceivably as a way to onboard users into health care experience and where that experience since its mobile first would need to be powered by some degree of A.I. driven chat and so that that could be where Babylon comes in. So the details haven’t been announced except except the partnership itself. And so I think that, you know, that that approach, whether it’s 10-cent doing so with Singapore governments or with other governments in the region or the likes of, you know, a consumer Internet giant, like a grab partnering with a, you know, a global health tech startup, like a like a babble on. I think these are the sorts of cross-border partnerships after you’ve innovated around product that can be kind of very fruitful and entry markets. And then the third step to kind of round out the three steps, this acquisition or actually both organically and organically starting up a new division or new unit in the new country into which businesses expanded. So whether that’s United Healthcare in Chile or, you know, some of these examples where they acquire a business in another market after partnering them for a while, I think these are the sorts of natural next steps that come out of kind of a global strategy. We have a company in our portfolio that you mentioned at the start of our of our conversation today called Bright.md which is really a primary care automation platform currently serving Keizer in the US. Optum, it’s serving the prisma health system. And they are Portland based, but are doing work with the go visit, which is the largest telehealth provider in Canada. So it’s a little bit like the teladoc of of Canada and the deployment models will be different. I think that’s an example where, you know, a piece of software that was innovated within U.S. health systems is customers, partners with, you know, a leading player in a different market. And that, you know, it’s too early to talk about, you know what, where that goes nex but I think that evolution of innovation, the partnership acquisition, is not just confined to kind of the large companies like the United Healthcare of the World to do a great job of that already, but also smaller companies that are innovating every day that have limited resources. But, you know, see the opportunity of going cross-border and finding the right partners to do so. So, you know, we’re no strangers to that within our portfolio as well. And, you know, a definite encourage entrepreneurs as well as Mitton and mid-sized companies and their leadership teams to think about what is some of these thoughtful approaches so that, you know, by innovating, by partnering and acquiring you and kind of crawl, walk, and then run it at the right pace for your organization when you enter.

Saul Marquez:
Love it, Gavin. And there you have it, folks. There’s your strategy. If you were trying to figure it out from scratch, now you have a little framework innovation, partnership, acquisition, I mean, this is such a clear picture, obviously not easy, but a great pathway to to get there to the global global markets. And what would you say is one of the big, big pitfalls that people need to be careful about when they’re executing on this?

Gavin Teo:
You know, I would say that something to avoid is being determined because as a cognizant of is to kind of not not do the same thing repeatedly and expect a different outcome. All right, especially when it comes to, you know, leading people and building an organization. And I’ve seen companies try and solve problems by throwing more resources or more money against the same approach. And that can help in the very short run, because, you know, it’s sort of papers over broader issues. But the other day, you know, it sort of subsidizes inefficiency and doesn’t necessarily move things forward. And I think, you know, one way to combat that is, you know, when you enter a new market or starting a new a new initiative that that is sort of venturing to new territory is to set key success metrics early into and to communicate that and then hold people accountable individually. And I think when those goal posts are clear, Right., what what is success look like for an organization or in the case of what we just talked about? You know, what is what is success look like to get from, you know, stage 1 to stage 2 to stage 3? And I think being transparent about how to how to measure and to reach these goals is a critical piece of kind of avoiding, you know, some of some of these challenges of growth.

Saul Marquez:
Well, that’s a great call, Gavin. And man, what a what an incredible discussion. I always learn a ton when when we get together. Yes. You know, as folks think about the the global economy of healthcare and, you know, the requirements for global solutions. What would you what would you what would be the call to action for people listening from you today?

Gavin Teo:
I would say that healthcare is an economy and it’s a global economy. And I don’t think the opportunity is tremendous. The challenges are also large. But I’m really excited about how health care entrepreneurs and executives at large established businesses that are thinking about challenges and how to overcome them on a global basis. And I really applaud that and look forward to finding ways to contribute to that that myself.

Saul Marquez:
You know, I was just, I mean, just hearing about all the examples you provided. Gavin, I mean, super rich examples, so thank you for that. You know, 10-cent and We Doctor Chat and Ping An. And, you know, you talked about grabbin Babylon and how they’re doing things together. I just thought how cool would be if there is like like like a field trip, you know, that a lot of people from the states could take and see and hear and feel what is going on over there. Just because I feel like it would bring back so much to to our system and vice versa, right? While they’re over there interacting with the people in those markets, they too could get from some of the things that we’re doing out this way.

Gavin Teo:
You know, I think that the more we think about sharing learnings, what works, what doesn’t work so well, you know, tailoring approaches and and collaborating across borders, the better we will all be able to ultimately serve the patient and to drive the right healthcare outcomes. So I’m all for that. And I really appreciate that sentiment.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, and and for and for the folks listening. I guess, you know, my call to action would be I want to hear from you on this one if you would be interested in it in a virtual field trip to Asia. Send me a message. Send me a message. Just just write me an email saul@outcomesrocket.com, saul@outcomesrocket.com , say, “hey, I want to. I want a virtual field trip” and and Gavin, maybe maybe if I get enough people interested, if enough people are interested on this, maybe we get together and do like a little private fireside chat virtually on this.

Gavin Teo:
Sounds great, Saul. I’d love to be your partner on that journey and the partner of everyone else who responds and shares that that excitement and interest in doing so. And I’d like to say for the listeners out there that, you know, solit your library of content that, you know, spans now, you know, hundreds and thousands of fantastic insights from the U.S. and globally. I think this is extremely relevant right now for the global healthcare economy. And so I think you already do have the building blocks and more of a virtual tour of thought leadership around some really critical issues that have been asked on your show and that have, you know, some great insights for people that are also tackling those questions for the first time in different global markets. So I think it’s absolutely a two way street and I would love to explore that if there is that continued interest from us, from the listener base.

Saul Marquez:
I appreciate that, Gavin, really much. And so, folks, they got take the call. The action is email me if you’re interested in a virtual field trip. I mean, this is kind of fun. I’m kind of excited about it. I hope enough you enough of you reach out and if not, it’s all good, right? There’s the answer to saul@outcomesrocket.com. Gavin, I got to just say thanks again, I mean, every time we get together, we learn so much. The listeners learn so much. And I wish you the best in the ventures that you have going on there and really looking forward to doing a part 3 and another 6 to 7 months. Brother, I really appreciate you jumping on.

Thank you so much, Saul. It’s an absolute pleasure to do this with today.

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