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Trusted, Trustless and Sovereign Data in Healthcare with Dele Atanda, Founder and CEO at metaMe was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the latest audio-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors. Sonix is the best way to convert your audio to text. Our automated transcription algorithms works with many of the popular audio file formats.
Welcome to the Outcomes Rocket podcast, where we inspire collaborative thinking, improved outcomes and business success with today’s most successful and inspiring health care leaders and influencers. And now your host, Saul Marquez.
Saul Marquez:
Welcome back to the Outcomes Racket, Saul Marquez here. And I’m really thankful you dialed in again today I have the privilege of hosting Dele Atanda. He is a serial entrepreneur and acclaimed digital visionary. He’s the CEO of metaME. The world’s first self sovereign AI and Universal Smart Data marketplace. That’s right. A founder of The Internet.Foundation, an NGO dedicated to advancing the ethical use of data in commerce while establishing digital rights as an extension of human rights. Atanda is a celebrated innovator, having led digital innovations for FTSE 10 and Fortune 100 companies that have become the gold standard for digital engagement within their sectors. Prior to Manami, he led IBMs automotive, aerospace,and defense sector as the Chief Digital Innovation Officer. We’re gonna be diving into some amazing thoughts around data ownership, sovereignty, privacy issues and what we could do in healthcare to leverage data to make the moves that are going to make health care better and improve business success. He’s been a pioneering voice on the emergence of Web 3.0 technologies, notably with his critically acclaimed book, The Digital HarIan Tsunami Web 3.0 and the Rise of the NGO Citizen, published in 2013. He’s an avid advocate of the potential of decentralized technologies to advance humanity where positively and dramatically transforming society. I’m excited about today Dele and I’m so glad that we made this work. Thanks for being here.
Dele Atanda:
Thank you for having me Saul very great, very excited to be here.
Saul Marquez:
So Dele, you got to tell me, man. I mean, you’re getting into AI data pretty deep and we’re gonna focus on healthcare today. But what inspires your work in healthcare?
Dele Atanda:
Yeah. So I guess the first thing is that the we’re essentially come to the realization that data has become currency and it’s a currency that’s become hugely valuable. No surprises, nothing new in that. But certainly we can see that’s a really interesting thing happening in health, particularly at the moment, is that you got this confluence of information technology and biotechnology. And it’s not insignificant that we’ve been sequencing the genome type for a few years now. And so we’re developing this really rich data base and information base around the very building blocks of life on the same side. By the same token, our information technologies in society as a whole are moving an exponential pace. So the coming together of these two areas of bioinformatics and the information technology creates a plateau, a platform for a transformation, a real sort of quantum leap in terms of health and medicine going forward.
Saul Marquez:
It really does. And you start seeing things like Google buying Fitbit and, you know, many others. And it makes you really take a second look at data and what that means in health care and what kind of plays will be made. How are you and your business adding value to the health care ecosystem?
Dele Atanda:
Yeah. So, I mean, great question. So I think when you look at the industry as a whole, data as an industry, in a sense, the most valuable types of data are generally financial and health data. In fact, health data is twice as likely to be hacked as any other form of data. So I think it’s really obvious why a lot of the data aggregators out there are really trying to pull a lot of data into to their operating model to be able to drive better predictive futures, which is essentially what the business is. Now for us, though, I think we approach data from a different perspective. So we come from this decentralized perspective around how can we enable sensitive health and wellbeing data to be shared between users and between different stakeholders and in a very confidential way, in a confidential in the privacy preserving way in a way that gives agency to the individual primarily. And that for us is really the fundamental piece. As we’ve grown over the years, we’ve started to look at things from multiple stakeholder perspectives. But fundamentally we start from the perspective of the data owner is the primary. And so if you give sovereignty and control to the data owner, then you can effectively start to have a data exchange value proposition that is. Much more fair and equitable on one hand, but also that leads to much better quality of data, which ultimately leads to much better outcomes. So we think that this is really the fundamental value proposition that we bring to the to the industry and to the ecosystem is this ability to bring a higher grade of quality of information into the ecosystem and a better framework for managing the sharing and utilization of that information.
Saul Marquez:
Now, very interesting. And you think about data quality and the cleanliness of data, that’s crucial right, to any any engine that that’s processing the data. If you had to share in an elevator who you help and how you help, what would you say that is?
Dele Atanda:
So really we really focus on three stakeholders in the health space. We focus on individual. So specifically actually we’re focused on employee well-being. So we focus on employees in organizations and then the organizations themselves by way of their H.R. departments. And then health care service providers. So these are the three sort of stakeholders that we focus on. And what we focus on is how we enable data to be shared between these three stakeholders in a way that can lead to better outcomes for employees. And I can talk specifically about the specific outcomes that we’re focused on, but also better outcomes for the employer and better outcomes for the service providers through management of data sharing effectively.
Saul Marquez:
Very interesting. Appreciate you honing in on that. So you’ve created a platform and I’d love to hear. What is it that that makes the the Manami platform different? And how is it improving outcomes and making business better?
Dele Atanda:
Yeah. So, I mean, what it really comes down to are three things. So, one, this idea of sovereignty, which is the principle that the data owner or that the person who the data is about effectively is the data owner. So data as a property is like the foundational principle. And whether that’s an enterprise in the context where the enterprise has their data and they own it or whether it’s an individual specifically in the case of a name. In this case, an employee, they own the data. So that’s the kind of first principle. But the second two principles are where gets really interested. So the interesting rather than the first is this idea of trusted data. So you spoke about clean data. And, you know, that’s something that the industry data industry has been looking at for a while now in terms of accuracy and duplication and that sort of thing. But there’s a new concept of clean data. And actually we’ve been a pioneer of this this framework. It’s often touted that data is the oil of the 21st century. And we coined the term clean data in the context of consensus data, in the context of if data is the oil of the 21st century, then we need a clean data ecosystem analogous to clean energy. And while on one hand, a lot of the data practices that have been happening in the past have been like oil, very extractive, very externalise, very much sort of highly exploitative. One would have to say in many regards Gates necessarily the data owners today who are the individuals who own these and this is the same whether it’s enterprises or individuals in that sense. And one of the big challenges with that is that the quality of the information that we’ve been able to get from the systems that we have from these digital systems particularly has not always been accurate or has not always been great. And one of the big challenges we have today with data is that the only real metric we have around data is based on size. But there are much more important things around veracity, sensitivity, identify ability within data sets that as we move to a more 5G and broadband digital reality, then those factors become more important in size. So that’s that’s the ability to be able to have data that we can rely on signal integrity that is that we can make that we can be confident about when we’re making our computations is a is a really important factor. And that’s the first factor that we introduce. And then the third factor is this idea of trust less data sharing and this really.
Saul Marquez:
Works trust less.
Dele Atanda:
Yes, exactly. It’s a bit of a confusing term in the sense, but one that’s popular in the blockchain industry and usually it’s used in the blockchain industry to talk about not needing to have an intermediary between when transactions are being done, where things are being exchanged. And that’s relevant, but less relevant in I think in the health industry. What’s more important is the issues around privacy and confidentiality of information. So what are trusted this data model enables us to do is it enables us as data owners, whether that’s an enterprise and enterprise or an individual, to be able to share data in a way that we don’t have to trust the party that we’re sharing the data with, because we’re able to encode our information with rules that are enforced on our behalf by the information itself.
Saul Marquez:
Systems, I mean, and it just built in transparency.
Dele Atanda:
It is transparency. That’s one factor. So there’s there are policies that are that I’m very clear upfront in terms of who can do what with the information. But it goes beyond that. It also is enforced. It’s so immutably enforced rules because the blockchain network enables us to effectively make meet, you know, executable programs, programs that can’t be stopped effectively. That means that we can actually encode this these policies with rules that cannot be circumvented from happening. So it goes beyond transparency to actual implementation and enforcement of rules.
Saul Marquez:
Very cool. Very cool. Now, I appreciate you walking us through that. And it would be really interesting to hear some some cases, you know, like some applications are there. You have some that you can share and you like to share.
Dele Atanda:
Yeah, absolutely. So we’re working on a specific pilot now with IBM whereby we ran some workshops and we got a group of employees, H.R. personnel and service providers, to look at the issues associated with all of them. But essentially what we’re doing is we’re enabling employees to share data, which is emails over a period of three to six months or social media posts. And we then run these this data through an analytics engine that we use to do a couple of things. The first thing we do is identify a personality archetype for each employee. And from that archetype, we then do a benchmark in terms of assessing the employee’s mood over a period of time against other archetypes that are similar. So effectively, we start to be able to assess mood levels and stress levels effectively based on archetype and emails and posts that have been made. And then the third part then is that if an employee is then indexing high in terms of having high levels of stress, then we can then make recommendations on stress management interventions that they can take up to reduce that stress or to manage that stress in a more healthy manner. The most important thing here is confidentiality, because what we found when we ran this workshop in when we first started the process it and started designing the pilot, what we found was that data was key to optimizing the performance of all three stakeholder groups. When we looked at the most important stakeholder, though, in terms of getting data in and process was the employee. And when we looked at what employees were most wanted and were most concerned about. On one hand, they were most concerned about confidentiality and privacy and sharing data about their well-being with the employer. And they were more comfortable with sharing information with a service provider than with their employer, which was seemed a bit strange, really, but it’s understandable. But the other thing that they were really wanted was to be able to curate all the tech to have some sort of like white glove concierge type service that could make specific recommendations to them based on what they needed rather than having to show their way through complex benefits programs that, you know, had different sort of things that they didn’t really understand. So but the barrier to that, obviously, was this privacy and confidentiality. So. Being able to manage what our system does and what our application and protocol does ensures that the employee is able to share this information with a service provider should they wish, with full control, consent and agency around that. But even when they’re showing that they can share it either in a semi-anonymous manner or in an identifiable manner or even in an anonymous manner, depending on the nature of the engagement they’re having. But most importantly, the enterprise only gets visibility of the macro, so aggregated anonymized data sets that they can use to then assess the the met, the performance of a particular service providers or to take up those particular services accordingly.
Saul Marquez:
Fascinating. And as an employer listening to this prior thinking. Huh? This is interesting. I got a company. I have that several thousand employees. I paid for their insurance. This is kind of interesting. And so for the people thinking that thinking, wow, this might be a good way for me to empower my employees. But hey, know and take care of them better at the same time. A great way to identify things before they happen or cause. What are your thoughts around somebody thinking that?
Dele Atanda:
That’s exactly the issue. I mean, it’s the end. We see with mental health issues particularly, they become more expensive to deal with. The more developed they are and the much more the preventative measures or intervening early stages where early indicators surface can results in dramatic turnarounds and improvements in people’s general mental health status. So that is exactly the opportunity, the ability to be able to intervene earlier and get better outcomes to people who need it. But that also being able to match well-being programs with employees needs, because that’s one of the crises that employers face as well, is that they go to a lot of trouble to develop these health programs based on problems that are either identified in the population or that are generally statistically evident across multiple organizations. So it make the most organizations will have employees who have health mental health issues, for example, and they’ll bring these programs on board, but they don’t get the uptake of these programs that they estimate or that they project. And that’s a frustration for them, which ultimately results in less productivity for the organization, but less well-being and less happiness and less all around contentment, both for the employees and for the H.R. personnel as well. So I think this is exactly the opportunity that we’re seeking to address with this. And of course, that can be played out across broader issues than mental health to a complete portfolio of health and well-being services.
Saul Marquez:
Yeah, it’s me. And one of the things that’s hard is that the environment is noisy. How do you cut through that noise?
Dele Atanda:
Yeah, I think, you know, this is a really interesting question. You know, one of the things I think the way to cut through the noise is we have this idea of we call it kinetic data sharing. And this is the idea that you first of all, from a security and privacy perspective, we design our processes so that the minimum information needed to achieve a task is what is shared at the time. So that kind of private by design, it’s this principle of data minimization. But the thing that also comes along with that is that you can have a very progressive user experience model whereby you’re just surfacing the information that people need when they need it at the point where they need it. And whether that’s the state of straight, you know, indexing high in terms of stress levels. And maybe now would be a good time to do something about that. Or if it’s something even much more complicated than that in terms of, for example, selecting their insurance cover plan, for example, whereby there’s more information that they need to go through, etc. But I think this whole idea of giving them information, collecting the information that’s needed, the minimum information that’s needed when it’s asked needs to be done and then providing the right type of insights or feedback or result from that information in the moment is really how you kind of you start to cut through the noise by being very honed and very precise in terms of the insight that you’re giving the employees, which can lead to much more dramatic impacts. We see.
Saul Marquez:
Yeah, that’s very interesting. Aren’t you elaborating there and Dele, so these conversations, so I am envisioning, you know, e-mail exchange, text exchange, that becomes the source of the data. Is that is that correct?
Dele Atanda:
Yeah. So, I mean, we make it very simple within our framework, essentially as a person signs up to the servers. They all basically connect their email service, whether that’s G-mail. And again, it could be external emails or internal emails. That depends on the organization and what their policies are around that sort of thing. And then social media, again, that could be that would be external or even it could be internal Internets and the like as well. So those are basically connected through API into the service and then all works in the background. Really, we want to the objective is not to put a heavy cognitive load on people, but just to give them something that is relatively light and low touch in terms of them being able to understand and get those insights back. So, you know, they get a personality insight back, which is a fun thing to understand, you know, what kind of, you know. Are you an adventure, you a researcher, etc. That kind of insight is helpful. And then we start to just basically go a little bit deeper. Bit by bit in terms of insights around that. But the collection process is very straightforward. It’s basically like it’s like connecting using Facebook Connect or Google Connect to Connect, as you would do, signing in. Using those as social side in services..
Saul Marquez:
A simple integration.
Dele Atanda:
Very simple.
Saul Marquez:
Very cool. And then as the user just kind of trying to capture the user experience, I’m sure some listeners are probably thinking about this, too. So then where do you receive the insights? Do you get emails? Is it a dashboard?
Dele Atanda:
Yes, it’s it’s an app which is like a dash toward effectively. So it’s a micro app effectively. So, yeah, you’ll get this. And that’s one of the things we’re working through now. What’s the best way to surface these insights? And again, you can get hyper personalized about this because some types of interfaces will work better for some people than others. So, again, we can customize all of that. But in the short term, we’re looking at what are the kind of general ways to present these insights. For example, if we look at stress, so we’ll provide a graph which matches the individual users stress levels against the archetype where they can see a benchmark. But then you might we might be able we might surface things like, oh, you had X number of meetings this week or you have X number of emails or responded to. So you can start to make some correlations between the stress levels or whatever, you know, and the activities that the user was doing over the time period.
Saul Marquez:
Very cool. Now, I appreciate you going deeper with me because I really wanted to get a sense of how the technology worked and you did a nice job. So I appreciate it. You’re welcome to do it. What are you most proud of in the work that you’ve done, whether it be, you know, at Madani or are in the other amazing things you’ve done in your career?
Dele Atanda:
So I think actually something quite recent with the Internet Foundation, we started with these two mandates, as you very, very kindly introduced me with. One was this universal declaration that this crisis, the extension of human rights. One second was this ethical data standard working around crafting a framework for how companies should use data in a responsible, sustainable manner. And we’ve been working as part of a small team with the British Standard Institute for the last almost two years, now a year and a half, almost two years on creating a big data standard for data intensive organizations, which is includes an ethical data standard as part of that. And actually we it went into a public consultation on the 1st of August and we completed that on the very first of October. And we just had our law, our final review meeting as a team, reviewing the public feedback from that. So this will be published as a stand that the beginning of next year, which is really a framework which will evolve. The next it’s the first step of becoming an ISO standard, which gives us a real benchmark around what does good behavior look like in terms of ethical data practices on one hand. So that’s really I mean, we were parts of the groups that petitioned and drove for GDP are in Europe, which was obviously a massive success for the industry as a whole. But this goes even beyond that in terms of data ownership and data value realization and having it codified in the standard is a huge achievement upon which we can then start to build technology around those principles and standards. So I think that’s perhaps one of the things I’m most proud of in terms of achievements.
Saul Marquez:
Congratulations. That’s no easy task.
Dele Atanda:
At this I have to agree with you. It wasn’t easy. But, you know, it’s of course, the first major hurdle with that now.
Saul Marquez:
That’s brilliant. What would you say is one of the biggest setbacks you’ve had daily? And now what? What was the key learning?
Dele Atanda:
So, you know, I’ve been obsessed with data for like over a decade now. And I looked at it from both a regulatory perspective, from an ethical perspective, from an economic perspective and from a technical perspective. And we developed this very comprehensive framework, which I’m pretty confident in saying is probably the most, you know, most secure, most advanced, most comprehensive framework for managing data, particularly proprietary or personal data in the world, but being able to communicate that and and get traction around that and distill that complex and abstract subject into something that’s very consumable, who’s been really difficult and represents a sea change in the way that data is used. And, you know, the public sentiment is definitely catching up and moving up towards it. But I think distilling that complexity down into something that people could understand, both from an investor perspective but also from an end user perspective, has been one of the biggest challenges and setbacks for me in this space.
Saul Marquez:
And so what what would you say is the key learning out of that?
Dele Atanda:
I think there’s there’s what I’ve learned and very recently, I dare say, is that got to separate the technology from the business. And on one hand.
Saul Marquez:
That was well said, by the way.
Dele Atanda:
Thank you. Thank you. It’s a real idea, sir. It’s something that’s been learned for many years of strife and pay. True. True insight. But, yeah, you know, I think technologists, we’re get very excited about the technology. And technology is when you look at technology as well, I think that the horizon for change is very different from when you look at business and applications. And I think that’s one of the great things that I’ve learned about it. That technology, if you’re trying to commercialize or get adoption for technology, you know, they say the famous adages that, you know, progress is really slow in technology until it isn’t. And so it’s a real uphill struggle. But I think if you can separate and simplify the technology into a use case, into something that people can understand and that solves a real problem in need and isolate that, then that becomes a much more easy sell. On one hand, but it also is it becomes less about the technology, then it becomes more about the business and the business opportunity. So you actually have a much more clearer perspective on how to go about commercializing that.
Saul Marquez:
Love it. If you could have lunch with anyone. Who would it be?
Dele Atanda:
Yeah, I thought about this for a while, I think I’d have to say it would probably be Satoshi Nakamoto, the mysterious inventor or Pourquoi and blockchain, but essentially blockchain and bitcoin and yeah, that would be who you know, it’s it’s allegri an interesting lunch. Yeah, right.
Saul Marquez:
Hey man, if you square that, let me know. I love to call.
Dele Atanda:
I can imagine I could sell tickets were pretty highly.
Saul Marquez:
Hey, you’ve probably already had lunch with them. You realize that.
Dele Atanda:
It’s the most sports.
Saul Marquez:
That’s very interesting. Love that. What are you most excited about today?
Dele Atanda:
You know, I mean, having been in this space for a decade, I’m really excited about the new data revolution, the new data economy that’s dawning. There’s such a prolific rise in awareness and in an intelligent conversation around data as a resource type now both with patience, consumers, enterprises and regulators really across the board. I said to people I say to people quite often, if you’d asked me at the beginning of this year, if I thought by mid-year it would be possible that you’d have three of the largest tech companies in the world competing on privacy. Facebook, Apple and Google all competing on the least in terms of the narrative, in terms of who’s most private. I would have said not possible. That’s probably three to five years away. But I think that it’s changing rapidly. And, you know, we’re hearing different regulators called out. I think California Privacy Protection Act is is really interesting, even like Senator, just how called yesterday for, you know, transparency and ownership of the data dividend bills that are coming around, all of these regulatory bills coming across the houses to really change the data economy. And the data paradigm is phenomenally exciting because I think, you know, this is the thing we need to get Right. in order to really unlock the potential and value of the Internet as the amid and the digital economy. That’s really starting that’s still in somewhat nascent form, but really starting to lead the world.
Saul Marquez:
Fascinating. And what what would you say is the best advice you’ve ever received?
Dele Atanda:
So I think that I suppose the advice, the best advice I’ve received, which is advice that I struggle with a lot of the same, I have to say, is this simplification. Simplify everything. Get down to try and simplify yourself into a single single strand. It’s it’s a work in progress for me because, you know, I have a lot of things going on. But I go through this rigorous exercise of constantly trying to simplify my message, simplify what I’m doing, simplify the interface, simplify the engagement around what you do. That’s probably.
Saul Marquez:
Great advice. You’re like the data some way.
Dele Atanda:
I like that. That’s a great term. I agree.
Saul Marquez:
So you’re a Samiah as hired, right? Like you say. Do you know the tannins, you know the notes, you know the region. But sometimes you just gotta tell people it’s a cabernet.
Dele Atanda:
Exactly. Exactly. Fruity and it tastes great with fish.
Saul Marquez:
Man, I love it. Now, that’s. That’s a great that’s a great take away and something that all of us need to be thinking about, because when it comes down to our expertise, our area of expertise on a scale of one to ten were pretty high up there. Let’s call us a 10 whatever it may be. Yeah, customers are not there. And and Della’s point here is a really good one to keep in mind if we’re gonna be successful. What’s your number one health habit?
Dele Atanda:
Meditation. I’d say I try and meditate every day at least half an hour a day. And I find that just gives me a clarity of mind and clarity of perspective enables me to manage my day much more effectively. So I’d say that’s my number one health habit.
Saul Marquez:
That’s great Dele. Thanks for the reminder. I kind of fell off the bandwagon.
Dele Atanda:
It’s easy to do, right? It’s easy to do, you know, but it kind of just, you know, be gentle with yourself, kind’s yourself and just come back every time you do it. It’s easier and you know it’s not. I think I learned to be a little bit, you know, not to beat myself up too much if I do miss it, because, you know, life gets in the way sometimes. But, you know, if you build up the stock and you build up a reserve more, you meditate so you can kind of build up your bank accordingly.
Saul Marquez:
Now, that’s great. It’s a great habit and a great reminder for all of us. Dele the work you’re doing is as impressive, really. I have enjoyed taking this journey with you. And how you add value to the ecosystem, the platform you’ve developed to help empower individuals and their data, but also employers and and caregivers to maximize outcomes. Leave us with the closing thought and the best place for the listeners could continue the conversation with you.
Dele Atanda:
Absolutely. So in terms of best place you can either conversation wise telegram we use is probably most active channel for ongoing engagement. My use LinkedIn quite a lot as well. So I can be found there or you can just go to metaME.com and we have contacts or info to metaME.com as well as a way to reach us directly in terms of closing thoughts. Yeah, I think that data and health data particularly is becoming one of the most valuable resources known to man. We talk about health is wealth and the correlation of health data and wealth in that space is becoming increasingly tangible and material. And I think that we’re on the cusp of a new era. And, you know, you mentioned my book earlier about the digital parents NAMI, which was really looking at the drought, how the Internet is changing the world. And, you know, I’m a firm believer that we’re on the cusp of this new post industrial revolution. This digital revolution is going to be a significant, perhaps more significant than the digital revolution, perhaps as significant as the cognitive revolution where we became conscious beings. But we’re at a crossroad. And I think that we spoke earlier to consumers, you know, where savants or sage or expert level in terms of our understanding of it. And most consumers are not. So that means that enterprises and organizations and regulators are going to have to take the lead in terms of how we shape this new kind of me and making sure that we shape it from an ethical perspective in a way that leads us to this better future as opposed to a potentially dystopic future, which, you know, we’ve all heard about. That’s lots of headlines around there. So I think that’s you know, my closing thought is that, you know, particularly to the enterprises service providers and the pay is out there. Let’s work towards creating a data economy that favors all that can lead to better innovation, better well, health and well-being outcomes and a much more value orientated ecosystem than we have today.
Saul Marquez:
What a great call to action. Lots to think about here. Hit the rewind button, the CBD podcast. You could read. Listen to this. Dele, I just want to say thank you so much. You’ve given me a lot to think about and I really appreciate all the things that you’ve shared. And again, folks, I want to remind you that you could visit Della’s company, find out more about them. metaME.com and all the show notes at outcomesrocket.health just type in at Dele, D E L E You’ll find out there. Dele, thanks for being with us today.
Dele Atanda:
Thank you very much Saul, it was a great pleasure.
Thanks for listening to the Outcomes Rocket podcast. Be sure to visit us on the web at www.outcomesrocket.com for the show notes, resources, inspiration and so much more.
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