CrisMarie Campbell & Susan Clarke of Thrive

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Intro:
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Saul Marquez:
Welcome back to the Outcomes Rocket. Saul Marquez is here, and today I have the privilege of hosting Crismarie Campbell and Susan Clarke. They’re the co-founders of Thrive Inc. Well, let me tell you a little bit about them. Chris Marie Campbell is an Olympic rower and Susan Clarke is a former marriage therapist and EQUUS coach. And they’re the authors of The Beauty of Conflict Harnessing Your Team’s Competitive Advantage and the Beauty of Conflict for Couples. They also have a podcast with the same name, The Beauty of conflict for dealing with conflict that work and at home. And they’re here to talk to us about how we deal with the conflict in the C Suite, how we deal with conflict with our stakeholders across health care organizations and companies alike. It’s going to be an exciting podcast because these ladies know what they’re doing. So, number one, they’ve helped a lot of companies, Fortune 100 companies like Johnson and Johnson, Microsoft, AT&T, Gates Foundation. The list is long. They’ve been on the Today Show and NBC. But the thing that you should walk away with today is that they’re going to be able to help you walk away with some great options and how to deal with that conflict that most likely you’re dealing with today more effectively. So you get the results you’re looking fo for yourself, your patients improve outcomes and business success. So I’m super privileged to have them here today. I want to give both of you a warm welcome. Thanks so much.

Crismarie and Susan:
We’re glad to be here. Thank you.

Saul Marquez:
And so, you know, I love the dynamic that both of you bring to conflict management. I mean, with a name like The Beauty of Conflict, it tells you something about how you both approach conflict. So before we jump into your methodology and what exactly you guys are doing in health care, I love to learn more about what inspires the work.

Crismarie Campbell:
You have to know. Saul. This is Crismarie. We did not call it the joy of conflict, the fun, the ease of conflict. We we call it beauty because we think when people can learn to hold through the tension, that innovative solutions emerge. And I did not, you know, grow up thinking I wanted to deal with conflicts in my professional career. I was a. My dad was an Army colonel. And so every night at dinner, he was pretty angry about something. And so I learned to be a professional conflict avoider. So I would diffuse the conflict. I changed the subject. I’d rephrase. My older sister seemed to like to push his buttons, so I’d always rephrase what she was saying. And it definitely set the tone for me working in corporate boardrooms, you know, around executive teams, because it’s like sitting around the dinner table. And so I became a pleaser and achiever, which took me to the Olympic Games. I was a Boeing flight test engineer, one woman out of 80 men. And then I went on to work at Arthur Andersen. I got my MBA and I realized while I was an achiever and a pleaser and that worked, my wanting to keep everything smooth really became a career limiting move. I was leading a project at a software company in the Pacific Northwest and I had a team of six. And this was going to be like a six month project. And we were setting up the strategy and my manager came in and he said he’s a senior manager. And he came in and said, no, you’re not going to do that. You need to do this other whole other strategy. And I thought that’s not going to solve the client’s problem. But, you know, I didn’t say that because I’m a conflict avoider. So I asked a question like, do you think that’s gonna solve the client’s problem? And he said, yes, get to work. And I was catapulted back to the colonel’s dinner table. And I followed, you know, like a good soldier. Did the strategy he wanted at the end of the project. We did not solve the client’s problem. We wanted to garner more work, though, at this client. So all the partners at Arthur Andersen came in. We invited the clients. All our project managers were sitting around the edges of the room and we asked, you know, the partners asked, so how are we doing? This executive vice president pointed to me and he said, well, you know, that project Crismarie led, that was a disaster, a complete disaster. Oh, I melted in shame. My manager was in the room. Did he say anything, no. And I deemed Right. then I’ve got to figure out how to deal with conflict because I don’t want this to happen to me again. And I met Susan Clarke here. You’ll hear from her a minute. And I saw her deal with a group in conflict in a really powerful way. And I thought it was real. They got to real results. And it wasn’t necessarily neat and tidy, but it was powerful. And I thought, I want to learn how to do what she does. And that was over 20 years ago when we’ve been working together pretty much ever since.

Saul Marquez:
I love it. That’s not a great story, you know.

Susan Clarke:
And she really I mean, I’d still say you don’t love conflict, but you’re much more willing to kind of recognize and get into it.

Crismarie Campbell:
Yes. I see the value in it. Yes.

Saul Marquez:
How about ynon-Hodgkin’s,ou, Susan?

Susan Clarke:
Well, I you know, for me, really, where I became passion about conflict was in my early 20s. I was diagnosed with an advanced cancer process and non Hodgkin’s lymphoma. And. It was they diagnosed it late and my medical team had I went off to do a very advanced advanced protocol, that they were like, OK, this is this is the one shot we have. And nine months into that treatment, I came back after doing some testing to hear how it was going. And my doctor looked at me and said, look, you know, it’s not working. And honestly, as a medical team, we don’t have any other solutions. And likely the best cases. You probably have three to six months to live. And I remember I was just blown away. And I remember walking out of there and thinking, I don’t know I don’t know how to deal with this. But I also realized I’ve got nothing to lose. And so I started exploring all sorts of alternative health care, psychology, spirituality and nutrition. Now, it was interesting because what I learned pretty quickly is that none of these practitioners, the experts I was going to particularly like talking to each other. It’s a matter of fact, they were categorically vehement that I was making bad decisions. My medical team didn’t like what I was doing with alternative. My alternative didn’t like the medical team. And I had this experience of like, well, you’re now on project, Susan. You either talk to each other or else. I mean, I’m kind of grateful that I was kind of young and had nothing to lose because I really, you know, my project, Susan, and and, you know, some of it in some situations, I really did get that. You know, it was pretty conflictual. It was hard to get them to talk to each other. And yet I do believe that eventuall that is what led to. Yeah. Went to for three other cancers. I kind of went to a variety of different medical institutes across the country and did all sorts of alternative things. And what I learned was how to have these tough conversations. And and I became passionate about it, that really smart people don’t particularly like to talk to each other because they’re very smart people. And do you think they’re right? But if someone like myself can get them to do it, really amazing things happen if they will come together and it’s outside of anyone’s expertise. And that was really powerful for me to experience. So I became passionate about getting other people to realize that that’s something that can change the world.

Saul Marquez:
That’s awesome. Well, congratulations on getting through that and getting from that. It’s certainly not an easy road and made it out and stronger.

Susan Clarke:
Yes, I am very grateful for that.

Saul Marquez:
So great. And so here both of you are with these amazing stories. You guys have banded together and you’re doing some pretty awesome stuff. So I’d love to park there for a second and hear about the work that you’re doing to add value to the health care ecosystem. Can you guys share a little bit about that, please?

Crismarie Campbell:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, it’s interesting in this current phase that we’re in, because there’s so much stress and emotional energy with COVID 19 and even the more recent, you know, the murder, the protests, the riots, all sorts of things. And so a lot of what’s more, short term, what we’ve been doing is helping people deal with the stress that’s come up. And what we recognized is that’s what we do when we’re helping people deal with conflict, because when conflict happens in a boardroom or an around executive table, what that plunges into is uncertainty because all of a sudden I’m disagreeing with you. And wow, I feel really uncomfortable that tension inside of me and between you and I. And I just want us to get to the right answer. And I think I’ve got the right answer. And so people short circuit that situation. And so we have so many tools that we use and teach people how to actually hold for that stressful moment to be interested in another, to actually speak up and be curious. So be vulnerable, be willing to reveal what you actually think, feeling well, and then also be interested in the other person. And typically how this shows up when prior to Cauvin when we were doing is typically two-day off sites where we’d work with the leadership team. We’d help them develop some trust, teach them a communication model. And if we spent any time, we always focus on the smart side and the healthy side. So we do a little what we call healthy work, which is all the things that involve human dynamics. They’re the things that decrease politics, confusion, turnover, but increase morale and productivity. The smart stuff is all the things that we’ve gone to school with or, you know, finance, technology, operations, medicine. And so typically what we do is build a foundation of trust so people learn more about each other’s styles and then they don’t take what’s happening over there with the other person. So personally, it can often be attributed to a style difference. And then we start talking about their strategy. And it’s amazing how new and innovative solutions occur with just a little bit of work on the healthy side upfront. And we started doing this virtually now in Half-Day segments to do the same work remotely.

Susan Clarke:
I’d also say that one of the. Things that happens in health care in particular. There’s the administrative side of things, the business aspect of things. And then there’s also the providers and people who are passionate about the more the relational side of things. And there is usually a great deal of tension between relational work and results work, you know, business solutions and how to stay relational and compassionate in that. And so that’s where w,e find that people who are really bright and smart helping them understand that whatever strategy you have come to is simply your strategy. It’s not a truth. It’s something that’s worth bringing to the table. So that’s where we say you need to be vulnerable and say what you think, feel and want. But you also have to realize that no matter how smart you are or how good you are at your strategy, you’re not going to get to new and different possibilities until you can be curious and interested in someone else’s.

Crismarie Campbell:
I mean, I think that’s true. Even with your doctor, Susan, your radiologist said radiology, your surgeon, you know.

Susan Clarke:
That was often they would come in as experts, which is what they’re you know, that’s just it. We’re paid to be experts in high business because you’re paid to be an expert. The real sign of an expert is someone who recognizes that there other experts in the room. And there is not just one way to go about solving the problem, but unless you can tolerate that uncertainty, that’s going to be hard to get to.

Saul Marquez:
There’s some great stuff here. And, you know, the style differences, just different approaches. Add some certainty to the uncertainty and probably makes the people you empower, you know, even better at what they do.

Crismarie Campbell:
Yeah, I think having a structure that we’ve used in hundreds and hundreds of teams and predictable results of going through, you know, this can bridge a gap when we know people style. So it gives people something to hold on to. And also a model. We have a model where we encourage people to check out their story and recognize we’re always telling ourselves a story. We think that’s what Susan was referring to. We think it’s fact. But even based on a lot of data, it’s still just a story. And can you be interested then in how this other person across the room put their world together and got to their story? Because that’s when you start to it’s just like in the brain. Creativity happens when we can hold two paradoxical ideas. Our brain fires, new neural connections. The same thing happens with humans sitting around a table if we can hold for this cash. I don’t know how you got to the opinion. New ideas emerge in the space.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, it’s awesome. It’s fantastic. And it is all about new ideas and what’s going to work in the new environment presented to us by, you know, Covidelectronic and the challenges that we’ve had. So maybe let’s talk a little bit about how you’ve improved business results for some of the companies and leaders that you’ve worked with.

Susan Clarke:
Well, I mean, one example, you know, we are often brought in when there’s something new coming in, like a new technology. You know, one of the first clients we ever had, it was electronical, patient records, patient.

Crismarie Campbell:
Long time ago. And great idea, very conflictual between one of this particular hospital that was taking it on between those I.T. experts, the health care providers themselves, the administrators that were putting in a lot of money. And it just wasn’t happening very fast. And we were brought in primarily to help resolve the tension that was happening between that I the I.T. experts and the medical providers. And it was, you know, helping them understand you guys. You need to have a higher purpose here. You need to get to mutual purpose and you need to go back to it because you’re you’re trying to do something that’s new. But you each have very strong opinions about who it’s going to help. So our job was to help them begin to see how they could resolve and get to a mutual purpose each time they got into conflict that was bogging down the entire system all the way. Take that to where now? A lot of times we’ve been brought in when there’s a new a young upstart technology and or a new system like we worked with in danger with the devices devices. It was a new device that was just a young it was a young company that had a brilliant idea and a really big older company, I’ll say more mature company that it sold things forever. And the tension between that sales force, that sales and marketing group and this, you know, innovative grew because they had bought the company and it was merging together. And they really needed to be able to have they needed those skill sets for that to be a success with, you know, going out into the broader we’re hot into the world.

Crismarie Campbell:
So we really had to work with their cultural shift and combining these two innovative companies, scrappy, kind of making things happen to this old system that was that worked. And so and how a lot of people get their nose burned at a joint when you try to merge and people are saying, no, that’s wrong. That’s wrong. And so how to actually help each of them value the other and create this new company moving forward?

Saul Marquez:
Well, it’s certainly important to get something like that happen. It happens all the time, you know, where you. Were you recently acquired? Yes, yes. Is this a problem? Some thing to consider? Is there an opportunity for you to do better with, say, a negotiation? Because those things get out of hand, too. Right. I mean, yeah, consider both internally. If you’re competing for resources or even externally working with partners and organizations, that I guess the model that you guys use. Tell us a little bit about it. And, you know, we’d love to learn more about how it works and what makes it different and eventually even more productive than what’s out there.

Crismarie Campbell:
Sure. So this is Crismarie. You know, we create teams. And typically, if the team is having kind of mediocre results or there’s politics or factions, you know, that there’s more horsepower than you’re getting out of it. It reminds me, actually, I was a rower and when I was on the national team, we weren’t expected to medal. But we are the team that we had. We trusted each other. We had each other’s backs and we went to the world championships. This is a little tangent, but it will make sense. We went to the world championships and the Russians had been dominant for years, over fifteen years, and they were in lane one, which is smooth water, which is an asset when you’re a rower. And we were all the way over on lane six, choppy water and the race we started, the Russians took off and, you know, we were pulling along. Then halfway through the race, the coxswain said, we’re moving on. The Russians and our boat picked up. And when we got to the end, Romania won gold. We won silver. But we were also happy that we beat the Russians. We went to dock in. This Romanian woman picked me up in her arms and another U.S. rover and said, have we beat the mighty Russia? And now that the next year was an Olympic year, Seoul, Korea, and we had that year, I was injured. So I was last to get in the boat. We were but the boat was different. We had factions. We had egos. I was injured. We made a month before the games. We made a last minute decision, bad strategic decision, because we weren’t actually having the right conversations about using an experimental boat. And we came in a heartbreaking we made it the final boat came in last in that key, in that final. And that was just such a loud A team. You can have two teams, same caliber of people. We didn’t have better people, you know, higher. It was how we worked together. And that’s so true in business, no matter what group you’re you’re dealing with.

Saul Marquez:
What a great call-out. And so as we take this example and apply it to the model, tell us a little bit about that.

Crismarie Campbell:
I was like, what was the original question?

Saul Marquez:
You know, and it’s a great and it’s a it’s a great it’s a great example. Right. and of this. And I mean, I’ve I’ve read a couple of examples of this, too, like in the Navy SEAL training Right. and all high caliber people, but it’s about how they work together.

Susan Clarke:
So I would say, you know, people believe that when you get together around your vision that you’re passionate about and you get smart people together and they’re passionate and they care that it’s gonna be it’s gonna be great. You’re going to change that what we’re going to do. But the reality of it is we’re talking smart people who usually have been hired for their subject matter expertise. And you’re talking about passionate people and there’s high stakes. And what happens is they get into Right. wrong right away. And pretty soon there’s tension that builds up and we do not handle that tension well. And honestly, most of us have learned how to manage or defuse the tension when we first put out our book. One of the biggest lines in Harvard Business Review was learn how to manage conflict. And we were like, no, no, no, no. Do not manage conflict. Get right smack dab into it.

Crismarie Campbell:
That’s where conflict is potential energy, potential creative energy that we’re too quick to kind of get rid of.

Susan Clarke:
And too often people want to hire people to teach people how to know the rules and what to say and how to say it right. And the reality of it is you’re not probably going to get to those creative resolutions if you try to put too much containment on it. What you really have to learn how to do is create a space where people can speak up and maybe it’s going to get messy. But there are things you can do in that to keep moving through it. And we talk about what happens is people opt out generally and their three styles in business that come up. There’s the superstar who say, like, OK, my team is not doing what they need to. I’m just going to take care of the business myself. And they’re gonna thank me later and they go off and do their own thing. And then you have somebody who’s an accommodator like Crismarie, who, you know,

Crismarie Campbell:
I was more worried about harmony and relationships. So I go one on one like, oh, Saul, you know, I see that you’re upset. Oh. And then I go to Susan. Oh, I see that you’re upset that you two are at odds. You know, I’m working all the back channels because I want to smooth things over, but I don’t bring my own opinion into it. Commentators often don’t.

Susan Clarke:
Unless it’s a question and then later end up, you know, regretting that you get blamed, you know. And then. Separators, you usually are like. I’ve got other business that’s really important right now. You guys are fighting about this. So, you know, I’m going to go off and take care of this other area that is important. Like each of these styles can be great for an individual contributor. However, when you’re sitting around a table, you really don’t want that to happen. You want you want those people to get together and kind of get into that discomfort and let it’s almost paradoxical because it’s almost a paradox because you don’t want to just get to a solution too quickly because you need to be in that discomfort to get to something new. And we are so driven to get to let’s just take care of business. Like, how many executive teams have I set with where it’s like, really we don’t have time to have this conversation and we’re like, you don’t have time not to because it’s going to be better if you get more information out before, you know,

Crismarie Campbell:
There’s three areas of thinking about going opting in. And that’s the ME. And that’s where we talk about personal styles. Are you showing up vulnerably in real saying what you really think or are you having the meeting outside the meeting because that’s not healthy. Right. And then there’s the we we call it the me, the we, the we as the relationships. How are you? Are you checking out your stories? Are you interested and curious? Are you listening because listening is such an under rated powerful tool to you,

Susan Clarke:
Especially in boardrooms. Yes. Sorry, I don’t mean to insult anyone, but ask yourself the question I have to ask myself. Was I actually listening in that meeting or not?

Crismarie Campbell:
Because most time we want to people are chiming in for the next smart thing to say. They’re not saying, hey, wait a minute, I didn’t actually understand that. Or is this what you’re saying? Blah, blah, blah. And reflecting it back, we don’t slow it down. And when you slow it down there, there is a lot of power that can come, new ideas that can come. And then the last is the business, which is those are the when we talk about these are high level questions like what’s our core purpose? What are our values all the way down to what’s most important right now, roles and responsibilities. How do we meet? And so taking care of all three of those is important to me. The we and the business too often like what Susan was saying, people want to Right. run Right. to the business and solve that problem. But if you take any time upfront on what we call the healthy side, the ME and the we, you’re going to get much better business results, exponentially increased business results. It’s been our experience.

Saul Marquez:
That’s fantastic. Yeah. You know, and we’ve got to be thinking about that with the right tools and the right frameworks and the right guidance. It’s possible. And so I’m glad we’re having this discussion with you both today. What was is one of the biggest setbacks you’ve experienced? I feel like there’s more in the setbacks. Like you mentioned, conflict is potential energy. And so are those setbacks. So tell us a little bit about a setback you’ve experienced and how that’s made you guys even better.

Susan Clarke:
Well, it’s time to think, you know, I’m going to use an example of a setback. That was we were working with the team and we thought it was a leadership team. And the leader was like, hey, we went in and worked with them. And they they had a lot of conflict around getting to their key clarity pieces. And and they kind of got there. But we wanted to we said to him, we said, look, you need to finish this conversation before we roll it out to the rest of your organization. And he said, OK, we we we’re gonna do that. We got that. And two weeks later, he was like, we need to roll this out now to the organization. We need to make this move. We can’t just. It’s time. And we said, well, did you guys finish having those discussions? We want to come in and make sure you’re really clear before we do that. And he said, nope, we don’t have time for that. Let’s just do this. And was one of those times where we both looked at each other like, OK, this is. But we’re not. This may not be what it’s going to be. And we he brought in his whole organization who was doing this big rollout. And we were he was putting the strategy out and the people he said. So I really want to hear from people and about whether you agree or disagree. And the first person that stood up was totally disagreed and happened to be on that executive team. And it really was a moment where you could just see how this is a complete disaster. Like the leader had no idea that was coming. We were like, OK, this is exactly why we didn’t want you to do this. And we had this quite vulnerable real conversation right in front of the room, like, OK, now you’re going to see that how this goes, because these guys are going to have to come up here and talk a little bit. And so they had. So we had to kind of organize this on the spot. Not very pretty conversation amongst them about how they hadn’t really listened to each other and hadn’t finished it. It ended up being incredibly powerful, thanks to the vulnerability really of the main leader, because he said, I did not listen and I should have and I should have come back to this. But now we’re doing it here. I feel much more raw and vulnerable. But you’re all seeing it real time and that actually transformed that whole organization. But at the time, it was one of the most awkward Half-Day events we’ve ever done.

Crismarie Campbell:
And if they change the team, they really knew because we talk about this idea of disagree and commit. Like when you finish a discussion, you want to make sure even if you initially disagreed. You know, as adults, we don’t need to get our way, but we do need to feel heard and considered. And so we work with leadership teams to really make sure not consensus, but people are heard. And then when you walk out that door, your words and actions align with the decision, meaning you don’t say, well, they’re making us do this. You actually back it up. So because otherwise, if you if you say, hey, the boss is making us do this, you undermine the trust and the leadership of that team. So we really work to create that sense of alignment and commitment. When you finish a discussion and you’re all aligned. Mm hmm.

Saul Marquez:
Man, I just kind of I was there in the room with you guys in spirit and mine on this story. And I’m just thinking, man, that was probably rough.

Crismarie and Susan:
It was you know, those are the experiences, like you said, that are really the most powerful. Yeah, they are assertive. Yeah. Especially if someone is willing to be vulnerable in that case like he was. And every actually everyone on that leadership team, because they all were put on the spot during that time period, but they hung in and they were real.

Saul Marquez:
Because that could have gone bad.

Crismarie Campbell:
Oh. Oh. Really bad. Yeah. And that’s often even in our leadership development, we’ve really worked with leaders to be able to handle those moments because that they don’t happen. They happen like one percent, maybe five percent of the time. But if you can actually show up as a real person, you gain authority and connection and loyalty rather than trying to look good. That undermines your connection and credibility.

Saul Marquez:
Totally. Totally. Wow.

Susan Clarke:
I was going to tell you one other story that’s probably a little more about us, I guess, is we because we were all we were speaking in a large crowd, you know, but I’m not I mean, I was a few hundred people, I guess a couple hundred people. And we were talking about our model. And I can get, this is Susan. I’ll just own that this is me. It was I get very passionate about people getting how critical it is to understand that this model is transformative. If you you can’t really believe your own story, you need to make room for other people. And I was and this guy in the back of the room questioned it and was. He was like, this is this is really we like tap people real time, ask questions. Sometimes I think that’s a mistake. He stood up and he was very argumentative. I don’t like this model. I don’t understand why you’re pushing on me. You feel really defensive. And I’m like, I’m not defensive. This is really I was very defensive, but at the time I was. And all of a sudden Christmas said stop, you know. And she looked at me and she said, no, I’m I’m not talking him. I’m talking to you. Stop it. Like, what are you doing? And this is what.

Crismarie Campbell:
We’re onstage.

Susan Clarke:
I had this moment where it was just like I felt so embarrassed and I thought talking, you know, like, how are you doing this to me? Don’t you think the keys to the problem. What then? Had I had one of those moments where it’s like, no, this is all about you. And I remember I started I got kind of teary. I was upset and I looked at him and I said, you know, you’re you’re right. I am being very righteous about my self. You know, this is very self-righteous about my righteous position, about how you should communicate. And I got to own I am way off base here. And I remember I was, like, teary and vulnerable. And it was.

Crismarie Campbell:
You did also share the reason I’m so passionate because it’s changed my life.

Susan Clarke:
It was it was the thing that I tributed to. Mostly what you know was that my turnaround and my own health. And I said later on, I Right. say yes. Yeah. And I. But I said, that’s no reason for me to be as defensive as I have been in the last few minutes with you. And so I want to back up and own that. And, you know, we went on with our talk, but it wasn’t until later that, you know, he came up to me and he said nothing you could have ever said would have had the impact on me other than what you did. And it really did remind me of so often that is the case. If we can just drop the guard armor and, you know, how do I do this right. To how do I do this real? And that is very hard to get to in the business world.

Crismarie Campbell:
Yeah. When we’re paid for having the right and there, you know, even school taught us that.

Susan Clarke:
So, yeah, I still don’t want to relive that moment. But if I had to.

Saul Marquez:
I love that. No. You know, and folks, as you reflect on our discussion, you’ve kind of think about this for yourself. You know, the the point that Crismarie and Susan are making is don’t think about doing it right. Do it real. And there’s gonna be a lot of opportunities for you and your organization and your empathy as a leader. And then, you know, to add, Crismarie said as conflict, this potential energy. And it’s up to you what that energy will be used for. So some great, great opportunities here and lessons that you guys are showing us. What do you both most excited about today?

Crismarie Campbell:
You know, I think there’s such an opportunity with what’s happening in the world right now. If we can actually slow down and be curious, vulnerable to, you know, feel our feelings about what’s happening and actually be interested about another person. And that can be taken at a micro level in your relationship, in your business and in your communities. And it’s such an opportunity for change if we don’t get caught in the in our Right. position. But be open and interested in what’s happening with other people.

Susan Clarke:
And for me, I’d say, you know, very similar. And I also kind of put it like health care right now. It’s such a vitally important part of who we are and what we are, how we’re going to be, you know. And I think health care has an opportunity kind of you know, I look at what’s happening around racism, but I also think that’s also a big factor in health care and how we how things have occurred where we maybe have not large groups of people marginalized. And what are we gonna do to undo that? And those are going to be some tough conversations that is going to happen at the administrative level. It’s going to happen. You know, in social care and health care and bar and mental health. And there was a big broad groups that are going to have to somehow talk to each other and deal with each other. And that’s not going to be easy.

Crismarie Campbell:
Especially if they’re worried about just surviving. So when we get worried about just surviving, we’re not so interested in other people. So that’s that’s what we find. We’re helping people get out of that survival mentality and more be able to listen and hear others.

Saul Marquez:
Yes, some some great opportunities today and moving forward. And, you know, the decisions that we make in the next year are going to be informative, especially because of what’s going on. And so this has been a ton of fun, you guys are fun to chat with. We’ve had it and it’s effective work. And so I’m also a believer that the best at what they do do so with coaching. And, you know, and somebody that seeing it from the outside that’s had experience and success and whatever the. You’re looking to get better at. And if you’re an executive, whether a provider executive or an industry executive, there’s no doubt in my mind that you are experiencing conflict. And if you think that there’s an opportunity to take to the next level the invitation to check out the work of this amazing team is there. And so I’ll open it up to you, Crismarie and Suzanne, to just leave us with the closing thought. And then the best place for the listeners could continue the conversation with both of you.

Crismarie Campbell:
Sure. And I just so agree with. As an athlete, I could never have done what I did because I wasn’t an athlete in high school and getting to the Olympics. I could not have done that without coaching. And I so believe that that is helpful. And it helps the coaching that I do. We do individually one to one. It helps people increase their influence and make a make a bigger stamp on the world. So I think that’s really powerful. And do you want to say and then I’ll tell them how to get hold of us.

Susan Clarke:
You know, I’ll just give you my mantra that has walked me through life for a long time, which is, you know, Susan, remember, it’s not what you do. It’s what you do next. And this is where, you know, in moments where I have made big pause or, you know, in my high defensive state, been able to go, oh, it’s not what I just did. It’s what I do next that counts. And that has helped me show up real more often than anything else. So it helps me to remember that.

Crismarie Campbell:
You can find us at our Web site Thrive Inc. That’s t h r i v e i n c dot com thriveinc.com. And we’re also on LinkedIn and have our podcast, The Beauty of Conflict, which is on iTunes and Stitcher and Spotify.

Saul Marquez:
Beautiful. Well, this has been a ton of fun. I certainly enjoyed it.Maybe we should make it an every six month or a year thing. We would love it. Listeners, make sure you check them out. The beauty of conflict. It’s a book. It’s a podcast, company. It’s just an incredible group of leaders there with Crismarie and Susan that are helping companies like yours and organizations like yours thrive with conflict. And so I can’t thank both of you enough for coming on. Really appreciate it.

Crismarie and Susan:
Thanks so much, Saul. We loved it.

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