Outcomes Rocket_Jordan Harmon: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Saul Marquez:
Hey everybody. Saul Marquez with the outcomes racket. So glad you tuned in today again because I have an amazing treat for you. His name is Jordan Harmon. He’s the chief innovation and commercialization officer, VP of innovation and just an incredible individual at HSS. He leads areas of life science, medical device and care delivery, innovation across the HSS enterprise, working closely with HSS surgeons, researchers and clinical teams. If you like, everyone else in healthcare, are thinking about cost of care and innovation, this episode is for you, you are not going to want to miss this. So Jordan, I’m so just privileged that you’re here with me today. So excited for our conversation.
Jordan Harmon:
Yeah, thanks, Saul, it’s great to be here, and that’s a lot to live up to in the introduction.
Saul Marquez:
But listen, man, like you’ve done so many cool things and you’re making such an impact. So before we dive into the really, really fascinating work, some of the papers you guys have done on cost of care and innovation. Talk to us about what makes you tick. Like, what is it that, that inspires your work in healthcare?
Jordan Harmon:
Yeah, great question. So for me, a lot of what happens in healthcare, you know, is, the innovation part of healthcare is really, really what makes me tick. So pushing the boundaries on things that are going to be the next wave of, of care delivery, new drug discovery and new devices that, that we’re all working through to improve patient outcomes and care is really, really interesting to me. So it’s not just about the general day-to-day improvements, although, although those are great, it’s about looking at what’s next and really pushing the boundaries on what’s possible there.
Saul Marquez:
Yeah, man. Well, well, your focus is, is crystal clear and, and it’s super important if you’re going to move the needle. So talk to us about your work and what HSS is doing to add value to the healthcare ecosystem.
Jordan Harmon:
Yeah. For those who don’t know, HSS is entirely focused on musculoskeletal care and movement based in New York City, in the Upper East Side, we see really 35,000 surgeries a year in the space and nearly half a million patients. And what that does is really allow us to get really, really good at one thing, and that’s treatment of movement and orthopedic conditions and rheumatology conditions. You know, so for, for innovation, you know, we work very closely with people who focus on those things entirely in the areas of life science, device, and care delivery. And what that means is spending a lot of time with researchers, clinicians who have ideas and they want to take them to the next level. So, you know, a new, a scientist who may be in the lab who’s working on a new drug focused on autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis, lupus, so on and so forth, and kind of moving the needle on, getting that to market so that patients can, can see the benefit from that. Another area is, is really working with, with our biomechanics team and really developing new implants or upgrades on the implants and partnering with industry on that and then care delivery, there’s a ton of work that’s been done focused on new movement capabilities and wearable solutions. So we’ve been seeing a lot of focus in that with our rehab team figuring out best how to care for patients at home. You know, the world changed a number of months ago and, and being able to, to care for patients away from the hospital in the four walls is really, really critical. And so we’ve been working very closely with a lot of those companies focus in that area. So it’s really cool, interesting work. And we see a path to really helping patients and improving outcomes long term.
Saul Marquez:
Yeah, you know Jordan, it’s, it’s such interesting work that you guys are up to, and being that you’re so focused on musculoskeletal care, you are making a splash. Do you want to, do you want to share with us? I mean, that’s one of your key differentiators, right? So share with us some of the things that you guys are, are learning and some of the things that you’re coming up with here.
Jordan Harmon:
Yeah. So it’s, I think it’s not just about a splash, but it’s about, it’s about real industry change and partnering with, with key organizations, so just give you a couple examples. So in our care delivery space, most recently, we partnered with a company, Zimmer Biomet, focused on machine learning and AI. So there’s been a lot of focus on robotic surgery, smart implants, wearables, and the data that comes from all of those things. But really, there hasn’t been a focus on bringing all of the data together to create insights. So, so we, we tend to tell clinicians like, here’s the thousand data points that we now have for you, go and make use of it. But we really haven’t distilled it down into something that they understand or can, can use. So the purpose of, of partnerships like this with great companies like this is to really change the way that the data is being portrayed, used, and create insights that clinicians can, can use in real-time. So a surgeon who might be operating in another part of the country could understand exactly how inter-op procedure, they could, they could sort of model similar behaviors as an HSS surgeon or, or certain behaviors actually lead to better outcomes and better patient-reported outcome measure scores. Those are things that are really going to help down the line, but nobody’s really answered those questions. So that’s, that’s one kind of example with a large partner. Another with a, with a smaller partner is in the area of wearable technology. So we recently partnered with a company called TESLASUIT and their focus is, is around it’s a full body motion capture, haptic feedback suit. And anybody who knows about injury, you know, as you’ve, you know, when you have an injury, some of the biggest challenges in recovery is actually retraining your muscles and the behavior change with that. And so we think there may be opportunity to kind of retrain muscles in the space as somebody recovering from injury. So, so partners like that are going to help us kind of change the game when it comes to that kind of work. And we’re already working very intently with them in our motion analysis lab, etc. So, so all those things are kind of examples of, of sort of how we’re, as in your words, making a splash, but also really trying to change the, the way that we treat patients in the long term.
Saul Marquez:
Yeah. You know, I think it’s, it’s, it’s super interesting some of the technologies that are available, but it’s just figuring out how to make use of them in a practical and scalable way, sounds like you guys are doing that. And then on top of that, there’s all this data, like we’re in a data ocean, so what do we do with all of this data? And it sounds like you guys are putting in some major efforts to give surgeons actionable insights.
Jordan Harmon:
Yeah, yeah. Surgeons, physical therapists, so on and so forth. And you’re right, it’s a data, ocean data. It’s no longer data lakes, it’s data oceans. And we have a whole team that is sort of focused on developing insights from our critical data, because one of the cool things that we have is, is, you know, we’re an institution that’s 150 plus years. And so you kind of get a lot of insights from the data over the course of that long trajectory. So we’re building the, I hate to use the word like AI and predictive models, but that’s sort of the, sort of the way that we’re thinking about the next using our data and how we partner with others in the, in the environment to kind of bring in relevant data and help them with predictive insights.
Saul Marquez:
I think that’s fascinating. So, you know, we were actually before we kicked off the call, Jordan and I were just kind of reflecting on how we’re back. Like, you know, COVID came, it’s still around, but we’ve figured out how to manage it, and things are just kind of back to the flow of things starting, you know, as you reflect on what’s happened and where we’re at now, tell us about your, your biggest setback and maybe a key learning that came from that.
Jordan Harmon:
Yeah. So probably so many setbacks. Hard, hard to cover any specific one. But I would say as we kind of move things forward, innovation constantly has setbacks, it’s the ability to overcome those. I think that’s that’s really critical. But just to make some for a tangible example, I mean, you know, inside the city and there’s a lot of people who comment on this, but inside the city during COVID, certainly we learned a lot about, about our organization and its capabilities and the culture that kind of drives people. You know, we became, you know, imagine a surgical hospital transforming into a med hospital, med-surg hospital, you know, and using a lot of the critical things that exist in other health systems in our ORs, in our PACUS, in our inpatient floor to treat COVID patients. So the capability that we really had to kind of transform into during a critical need, a point. And so like that was a huge challenge for us, but it also spawned a lot of innovation. So we saw a lot of people coming out of the woodwork on, you know, how can we actually think critically when we have resources that are limited? You know, I think that’s when, when innovation actually is the most creative. And people, people came to us with different ways to treat patients, you know, different PPE options, and people had gone into their garages to create like face masks and things like that. So just, you see a lot of innovation in those kind of critical times, and we learned a lot about the culture and the resiliency of the institution to kind of move things forward. So coming out of that, I mean, I think the world’s, world’s are oyster in that capability and continue to continue to innovate with those with those guys every day.
Saul Marquez:
Yeah. And you know, Jordan, I feel like there are so many great things happen during the pandemic to help with some of the challenges. And, and look, oftentimes it goes on recognized. And I want to recognize the efforts that you and the HSS team over there did to flex, to help the community to, to help during a really hard time. So just a quick pause to recognize you guys for that. And then, and it sounds like I’m the on the tail end of that just some some really neat innovative things happen that you’ve been able to translate. So, so since then, has the hospital resumed back to normal operations or did you retain some of the new things that you guys had it on?
Jordan Harmon:
Well, we’re back to normal operations, whatever normal means. But but I would say, but I would say we’re much more in my mind, we’re much more resilient. And by the way, appreciate the comments, you know, for, for the staff and the team at HSS, it wasn’t me treating the patients, and I think just watching that every day was was incredible. But, you know, we are back to to full on patient volume. It’s, it’s a question of did we learn anything? Yes, we learned, we learned a lot about ourselves. We learned about the institution, we learned a lot about how to navigate challenges and innovate on the fly. And so I think those lessons, not just us, but everybody, I think that’s a critical need moving forward, so it was it was incredibly valuable.
Saul Marquez:
Good, good. I appreciate you sharing that. So as we think about healthcare trends and technologies, you guys are at the forefront of it. Anything that you feel is something that we need to keep our, our eye on?
Jordan Harmon:
Yeah, I think, you know, I mentioned before like machine learning and AI, but I also think I’ll mention a couple of things. One, genomics and the ability to look at specific solutions for individuals. So we’ve talked years and years and years, you know, when I was in grad school, it was like personalized medicine, but really turning that into real care has been challenging. So I think we’re finally at the, in a place where we can actually start doing that, we can tailor solutions to individual needs. So we’ve, we’ve just started doing that in our world where there’s there’s a number of things that we’ve created to kind of assess somebody’s movement capabilities, we turn that into something called the How You Move lab, which is sort of this environment where you come in, you go through an assessment, and then we sort of tell you where are the opportunities for you to get better in movement and then provide it into like a distilled report for you to use with a trainer or physical therapist or anyone that you’re working with. So being able to create actionable insights and really tailor it to you is really, really critical. The other thing, and this is some of the work that, you know, I do, Saul, outside of HSS with an institution called Cost of Care, which is a nonprofit, NGO, that I’ve been a part of for a number of years. You know, I think bringing those, bringing a lot of value in affordability measures to the forefront to help institutions is super critical. And, you know, it’s, it is innovative. It’s a different type of innovation, it uses a different part of my brain, but it is something we’ve learned a lot about over the past couple of years. And being able to distill tools for health systems to get really focused on affordability for patients is something that I think we’re going to see a lot more of in the coming years, so that’s just another another piece from, from the outside.
Saul Marquez:
Yeah. Hey, I’m glad you, I’m glad you went there, Jordan, because this cost of care thing continues to be a problem, obviously. And and so how we innovate there is critical because it means access. You know, the people that, that need these procedures, the care the most oftentimes aren’t getting it. So, so I understand you guys have created some really great research and papers on that. Can you, I mean, I think this is a great chance for you to plug that because it would be beneficial to so many people.
Jordan Harmon:
Yeah, I’d love to plug it. And the work I think is is super meaningful and impactful to me. But we know from the work that we’ve done and some of the publications that we’ve done has been impactful for others. I don’t think we have all the insights, but a couple of things for people to kind of check out, you know, first of all, Cost of Care, the organization has done a lot in the past around distilling insights from patients. So we, we used to do an essay contest where we’d have people write in and talk about different stories around affordability and costs that impact them. And then we awarded specific prizes to money to them for, for the winners and that kind of really … And we had like hundreds of people write in and that kind of distiled a number of insights that led us to, to really focus on affordability issues. So cost is like I can tell you what something costs, but affordability is, is really something that everybody has a different level of capability and need when it comes to services they’re getting, the problem is we don’t talk about it. You know, clinicians are, are not informed and they don’t have the tools it’s not really their fault, they just don’t have the tools to talk about costs and affordability issues. And so one of the things that we did was we we pulled a group together last fall around affordability, some experts from health systems, from nonprofits and patient organizations, and that was critical was bringing in real patients who are struggling with this to be part of the, the iteration and the innovation and the development. And we just recently distilled that down into an article published in the New England Journal of Medicine Catalyst, and it basically focused on a number of different tools to improve patient out-of-pocket costs and trustworthiness in healthcare. Again, not a, not a cure all, but what we learned from the sessions that we, that we did was that there’s a number of things that health systems, provider organizations can do right now. And we think it’s going to be helpful in the competitive landscape if they do those things. So it’s not like anti competitive, it’s actually like really great for patients because they’re going to find like easy to use tools. And for example, like financial navigators have been in place for years, but we really have never created like financial pathways for patients. Like what does your, we know what your care pathway is going to look like clinically, but we don’t know from a financial standpoint how does that payer and lastly, it doesn’t do anybody any good if you’re recommending and prescribing things that patients can’t afford because they’re not going to do it, like long term they’re just not going to do it. So anyway, that’s, that’s out there, that’s something that that we published recently and and continue to curate those kind of insights.
Saul Marquez:
And Jordan, is that available? Like can we all get access to that by clicking on it was doing something.
Jordan Harmon:
Yeah, it was published last year in May. It’s called the Affordability Accelerator: A Roadmap to Improve Patient Out-of-pocket Costs and Trustworthiness in Healthcare, it’s in the New England Journal of Medicine Catalyst and in their Innovations and Care Delivery Journal. And we can, I can make sure you get that link, but yeah, it’s available.
Saul Marquez:
We’ll definitely include that in the, in the show notes here, folks, so check that out. You don’t want to miss out on, on some some of those insights to help get access to, to give people access to the procedures you do and and overall just help you in your competitive efforts as a health system. So just incredible work, Jordan, I can’t thank you enough for being here with us. Why don’t you leave us with a closing thought and the best place the listeners can connect with you, follow your work and just, yeah, be in the know.
Jordan Harmon:
Yeah. So closing thought I guess for me, gosh, there’s so much, there’s so much yet to do. And I think we, we love great partnerships. So working with companies from the outside of HSS, and partnering with them to really change and improve care is, is really critical. And I can’t wait to continue to see all the leaders on this podcast that you interview, Saul, because I learn something every, every, every time a new podcast comes out, so I’m going to be learning from from you as well, so looking forward to that. And yeah, anyone who wants to connect, you can find me on LinkedIn and Twitter and all the other places, but would love to to work with anyone who is interested.
Saul Marquez:
Love it, folks. Jordan Harmon with us again today. Just want to say thank you to Jordan for everything he’s doing, all the insights he’s shared, if something today resonated with you, take action. Cost of care won’t fix itself. Innovation doesn’t happen by itself. Partner with Jordan, do something. That’s what we’re here to do. So, so Jordan can’t thank you enough for joining us.
Jordan Harmon:
Thanks Saul.
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