SONSIEL_Joey Lee and Zayn Khamis: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
Hiyam Nadel:
Welcome to the SONSIEL podcast, where we host interviews with the most transformational nurse scientists, innovators, entrepreneurs, and leaders. Through sharing their personal journeys, we create inspiration, provide guidance, and give you actionable ideas you can use to be a catalyst for change.
Hiyam Nadel:
Hey everyone, welcome back to the SONSIEL podcast. But first, I want to wish you all a happy, healthy, and successful New Year. Today, I’m very excited to talk to Joey Lee and Zayn Khamis. I’m going to have them introduce themselves and then we’ll go from there, but today we’re going to find out that they attended a hackathon and we’ll find out what their solution was, what, that they developed during this hackathon. Welcome, Joey and Zayn, could you please introduce yourselves?
Joey Lee:
Hi, everyone, I’m Joey. I’m from Toronto, Canada. I have a clinical background as an acute care nurse, and last year I finished a master of Nursing, and I transitioned into the role of operational readiness specialist at a hospital in Toronto.
Zayn Khamis:
I’m Zayn, and my background is as a molecular biologist where I worked on creating vaccines. I spent the last five years both helping create digital products as well as doing different healthcare advocacy, including leading a healthcare nonprofit here in the Toronto area.
Hiyam Nadel:
Very good, that’s very interesting backgrounds. I want to start by really asking the two of you how you got into healthcare. Joey, let’s start with you.
Joey Lee:
So I’ve always enjoyed studying science, particularly human physiology. And as I was doing university, I wasn’t really sure what I was going to do afterwards, but a friend planted the seed in my head to pursue nursing, which I’m very thankful for because it turned out to be a great fit for me in terms of my personality. And I was happy to learn that nursing can also lead into many different opportunities as well, which led me to pursue a master of nursing.
Hiyam Nadel:
Very good. Zayn?
Zayn Khamis:
You know, I think my story is probably somewhat similar. When I was leaving high school as someone that was supposed to be smart, the path that you were supposed to do is science. So I come from a very medical family, so I went the science path. Both my parents are pharmacists, so at one point I thought about being a pharmacist, but I ended up just taking that interest and kernel of interest for healthcare and exploring it from that … background, and then through an increasingly deep passion for the area of helping people, which is what healthcare is.
Hiyam Nadel:
I agree with that. So you attended our hackathon. So tell me, each of you, what was driving your force to attend the hackathon? And also, did you two know each other prior to the hackathon or did you meet at the hackathon? Joey, let’s start with you.
Joey Lee:
So that’s an interesting question. Zayn and I did know each other previously and our mutual friend who’s my partner, Dimuth, he was our developer in a hackathon, and as a nurse, I got introduced into hackathons through my partner because he works in tech and I feel like Zayn is just always up for something new, and so we just decided to join. I was really happy to learn there’s a hackathon that’s nursing focused, so it was just, it was perfect opportunity for us.
Hiyam Nadel:
And Zayn, what about you?
Zayn Khamis:
Yeah, you know, I don’t remember who found it, but as soon as we found it, we started talking about it immediately and wanted to participate because our whole team is passionate about healthcare, is passionate about how to use technology for healthcare, and particularly how to better amplify the voice of nurses. So it was a perfect fit and we had done hackathons together before and this seemed like a perfect next opportunity for us to try to flex those muscles again.
Hiyam Nadel:
Very good. Joey, you said something very interesting, so a Tech colleague told you about it, and hackathons are actually very popular in technology. And why, from your perspective, did you feel you were happy that it was nursing focused? Do you feel like you could have gone to a tech hackathon and done well or you just wanted something just much more focused on nursing?
Joey Lee:
I think it was mostly the latter. Zayn mentioned that we did do hackathons previously and those were not healthcare focused, and I did enjoy the hackathon environment and the whole process, but having, those problems that we have to solve were kind of out of my wheelhouse. But when we found NurseHack4Health, it was like, finally there’s a problem that I can think about and understand and solve. So we were really excited when we learned about NurseHack4Health.
Hiyam Nadel:
So let’s switch it up a little bit. And when you went to the hackathon, you met other people there and did they join your group? And Zayn, maybe you could respond to that?
Zayn Khamis:
We were lucky in that, coming into the hackathon, we had a couple of us that we wanted to participate with. We did open our idea up to those that wanted to join, but I don’t think that ended up happening. Is that right, Joey?
Joey Lee:
Yeah, so the other individuals that were on our team was a fellow nurse who I went to nursing school with and she’s actually pursuing, Joanna, she’s pursuing her computer science degree now. And then the other individual we had was somebody else who also had attended hackathons but didn’t have that healthcare experience, so they were able to bring that lens too.
Hiyam Nadel:
That’s great, and that’s what the beauty is of the hackathon, is having different perspectives. So let’s now talk about your solution, and it’s called Netaverse. Can you tell us about that? And Zayn, maybe we can start with you?
Zayn Khamis:
Sure, so when we started doing our brainstorming, we really wanted to find a key problem that we saw with today’s nursing workforce, a key problem that nurses today were experiencing, and then wanted to figure out how we could best solve that with the technology available to us. So that led us to come up with the idea and implementation for Netaverse, and what Netaverse is, is a way to address what we saw as the difficulties in nursing education. So we saw that currently when nurses maybe enter the workforce after graduating, or even are switching in between wards, they often aren’t given enough opportunity to really have hands-on experience before they’re actually expected to start work. So we thought that by creating an extended reality, virtual reality, nursing education platform, we could help address this need. So the idea is that Netaverse is a marketplace for nursing education content that is in virtual or augmented reality that nurses, if they’re about to switch to a new ward, if they’re about to start at a hospital for the first time, get as close to real experience before having to do the real thing.
Hiyam Nadel:
I think that’s really quite interesting because if you think about the traditional nursing schools, you have your education and you have your internships, but when you come out, it’s not real, and suddenly you have this culture shock and so you feel that this solution will take care of that, right? So let’s put aside people going from unit to unit, but rather just entering into the nursing field. How does that solution help that?
Joey Lee:
Yeah, so in my own experience and in some of the experiences of fellow nurses that we spoke with as we were doing this hackathon, we found that generally speaking there is a checklist of skills that nurses should try to complete as they’re going through orientation, and sometimes that doesn’t happen. Like maybe you don’t get a patient who has X, Y, Z, and you couldn’t try that skill out. And so Netaverse would provide that opportunity for, especially, new grads to get familiar with those skills before they actually do them on someone else.
Hiyam Nadel:
Zayn, do you have anything else to add?
Zayn Khamis:
This was a pain point that came up a couple of times as we talked to different nurses. It was clear that there was an opportunity to do things better and everything that Joey just said, entering the workforce and everything, you yourself said, as a new grad what that experience is like, it’s what drove us to create this product.
Hiyam Nadel:
No, I love it. I remember how terrifying it was of an experience, but I also love the idea of going from specialty to specialty, right? You’re really relying on people to orient you, and as Joey indicated, sometimes there are things that don’t come up that frequently and you probably never get trained on it, and so this is an opportunity to do all of that. I really, really love that. So if you can each describe where you are in your journey.
Zayn Khamis:
Our journey with Netaverse?
Hiyam Nadel:
Yes.
Zayn Khamis:
So we have the model and kind of business plan sketched out. I think in order to take the next step forward, we would potentially be wanting to either find some funding to help bring this marketplace to life and then potentially create some sample content to start populating the platform with, as well as doing further validation with potential customers, which we would see as either educational institutions or hospitals themselves. Joey, do you have anything to add?
Joey Lee:
No, I think that was pretty accurate. I did want to point out the difference between just us creating the VR content, the virtual reality content, and then posting it on Netaverse, but we were hoping to create kind of a marketplace where virtual reality content creators could work with nurses to create tailored content for the institutions that we would be partnering with.
Hiyam Nadel:
Got it, and where would you like to start, essentially? So I know you mentioned maybe some educational institution and hospitals, but what would be a preference?
Joey Lee:
I don’t know if we’ve discussed that in detail. Zayn, do you have any initial thoughts?
Zayn Khamis:
I think the starting place would be with universities or colleges that have nursing programs to really be able to supplement the educational experience that they provide their nursing students. And that’s just to make sure, when you’re on an internship, when you’re on a ward, you can’t always predict what you’re going to see. This would provide that predictability, which would ensure that their education is comprehensive. So I think it would be a natural starting place for us to really deeply partner with universities and colleges.
Hiyam Nadel:
Got it, which makes really a lot of sense, actually. So can you talk about some of the challenges that you’ve faced so far, if any? You may not have faced any, but any challenges?
Zayn Khamis:
I can jump in on that. The virtual reality world is still nascent, even though it’s grown tremendously over the last few years. So I think our first challenge would be in finding and creating and getting people to create content for the platform. So I think that’s the starting challenge. I don’t know if you have anything to add there, Joey.
Hiyam Nadel:
And you mentioned funding, correct?
Zayn Khamis:
Yeah, I mean, the funding landscape has certainly changed over the past year, so that’s definitely part of the discussion here.
Joey Lee:
Yeah, no, Zayn, that was exactly what I was going to say. I think that is the biggest barrier, yeah.
Hiyam Nadel:
In innovation, the journey is quite a roller coaster, isn’t it? You’ll have lots of successes and then suddenly there are more challenges and you have to have that grit and be able to pivot constantly. And has anyone helped you or any institution or things like that that has provided some sort of resources for you?
Zayn Khamis:
Through the hackathon, we were lucky to be able to bounce our ideas and plan off a couple of the different mentors that participated. So we’re grateful to have had that opportunity, and potentially, we could see ourselves tapping on their shoulders again to get some further advice.
Hiyam Nadel:
And so when did the two of you really recognize, this is a very interesting topic for me, because I think most nurses don’t see themselves as innovators. Tell me a little bit about each of yourselves. When did you recognize you’re actually an innovator? And Joey, I’ll start with you.
Joey Lee:
I don’t know if I can pinpoint exactly when I considered myself an innovator. I mean, when I started working as a nurse, I did enjoy creating solutions to challenges that I did encounter. And I guess even now, when I do encounter a problem, I enjoy working with stakeholders to brainstorm solutions and implement them. And I guess it’s interesting because I’ve never used Innovator to describe myself before, but I suppose lots of clinicians are innovators. I mean, we’re often implementing solutions to problems that we face in our specific situations, even if they don’t get implemented elsewhere. For example, like how to work with a patient to, I guess, give them their insulin at an appropriate time based on their specific need, or like how to reduce waste in hospitals, thinking about solutions to address those issues. I don’t know if, I guess, I suppose I am an innovator in that sense. Yeah, Zayn, I don’t know if you want to provide your perspective.
Zayn Khamis:
Sure, my perspective is that Joey is an innovator, I’ll start there.
Joey Lee:
That’s great.
Hiyam Nadel:
I agree with you, and you are too.
Zayn Khamis:
Yeah, I appreciate that. In terms of pinpointing when I felt like I was an innovator, I feel like everyone goes through different moments in their life where they feel like, okay, you know, I just realized that I can do something and I can invoke change, and some of those moments can happen quite early in life, and those can happen later in life. I think everyone is an innovator. Everyone in their day-to-day life has to innovate some way, shape, or form, and I think it’s just about recognizing what type of innovator we are and how we can put that into practice. Some people are innovators as clinicians, some people are innovators as coders, some people are innovators as construction managers. So I think all of us could, if we really thought about it, realize we innovated, even if it was having to substitute an ingredient in a recipe. These are all the sparks of creativity that allow us to do greater things in life.
Hiyam Nadel:
I love that, Zayn, that was really beautifully put. I attended a meeting earlier this week and I really want to follow up on your solution, on Netaverse, because as we, at the hospitals, for example, take on more and more acutely sick patients, and there’s not always the time to really learn about many of the disease processes, etc, and I could just see that your solution would be helpful in those scenarios because we’re hearing from the front lines, patients are getting sicker and sicker, and yet getting educated about them just isn’t keeping up with that. So I really can’t wait to see how your solution progresses. I think there’s going to be a lot of use cases for it, especially in real-time, which will be very exciting. So each of you, what is one thing you would like to leave your audience with today? And again, if you need help, are you, people are listening in our audience that you may need more resources from or information, please let us know that, and Joey, I’ll start with you.
Joey Lee:
The one message I want to leave with the audience today is, I hope that groups who are creating solutions to various healthcare problems continue to include clinicians and patients at the table. I’m seeing that more and more in my own work, like I work in, within the Planning and Redevelopment department at my hospital network, and my role involves ensuring that physical spaces in healthcare settings are ready for patient care, and we do often include clinicians and patients at the table now, and I think that it really does impact the results, and that can include physical and virtual products as well, so I hope that continues to happen.
Hiyam Nadel:
Yeah, Joey, I think that’s really critical. And when we think about innovation, we always talk about that, different perspectives in multidisciplinary teams. It’s so critical for the right solution, so thank you for that. And Zayn, I’ll turn it over to you.
Zayn Khamis:
Sure, I’ll leave with maybe three things, if that’s okay. I’ll push the envelope of the question.
Hiyam Nadel:
Absolutely.
Zayn Khamis:
So one, I think, is that there’s so many smart people out there that I think have a place and role that they can play in healthcare. So if you think you want to make a difference, just know that there is a way for you to make that difference, and you don’t necessarily need to have been trained in any X, Y, Z fashion in order to participate. I think the second thing I’d like to say is, healthcare innovation is for everyone because it impacts all of us, and I think that’s more and more important as we think about how many of us are patients or caregivers or clinicians, no matter what your role is, it impacts you, so I think healthcare innovation is there for you to play a role in. And then lastly, just in regards to Netaverse, we are actively looking for partners and for people to help us take this to the next stage. So we think we have an idea that can really make a difference. I’ll give a quick anecdote, in one jurisdiction in Canada, there was a critical shortage of critical care nurses. In a program that was typically much, much longer to train critical care nurses, we’ve shortened it to a few weeks as a result. I think as we kind of see the nurse crunch, this nurse labor shortage, and the need to bring nurses into the workforce, I think the need for this kind of solution is more present than ever has been. So if you’d be interested in talking to us, we’d be interested in talking to you, and yeah, thank you so much.
Hiyam Nadel:
Thank you, Zayn. Thank you, Joey. And could you let us know what is the best way to reach you? Are you both on LinkedIn or any social media? How would the audience reach out to you?
Joey Lee:
I can be reached on LinkedIn. My handle is JoeyCYLee.
Hiyam Nadel:
And Zayn?
Zayn Khamis:
Yeah, LinkedIn works. I believe my handle is ZaynKhamis, so that should be fairly simple. Also happy to leave my email both in the show notes, it’s just there, or to the SONSIEL team in case anyone wants to reach out that way as well.
Hiyam Nadel:
That actually would be perfect. Thank you, Joey, and thank you, Zayn. This has been really quite interesting, and thank you for sharing so much with us today. And to our audience, please let us know if you would like to reach out to Joey and Zayn, we can also be your intermediary. Thank you and have a wonderful day.
Hiyam Nadel:
Thanks for tuning in to the SONSIEL podcast. If today’s podcast inspired you, we invite you to join our tribe or support our mission by visiting us at SONSIEL.org. That’s S O N S I E L.org.
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