Applying Crowdsourcing and Price Transparency in Physical Therapy with Efosa L. Guobadia, Chief Executive Officer at Move Together and John Randa, Physical Therapist at Northwestern Memorial Hospital
Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast once again. As a leader in health care, you have big ideas great products, a story to tell, and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there's one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sales cycle is low. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy. At the Outcomes Rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if I had not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level, meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.
: Welcome back once again to the outcomes rocket podcast where we chat with today's most successful and inspiring health leaders. Today I have a special treat for you all. We've got the co-founders at MovementX.. First of all, I want to go through a quick introduction and then we could walk through their personal experiences and anything that I left out. But I want to introduce at Efosa Guobadia. He is the co-founder at health tech company MovementX founder of the informational web site PT Haven co-founder and co-director of the international initiative PT Day of Service Co-Founder President CEO of move together to buy 1 seat 3 for purpose organization dedicated to improving access to quality rehab medicine around the corner and around the world. He developed and led the international volunteer program ATI mission works for ATI physical therapy which we all know a national chain and he contributed a chapter on sustainability as well as a closing afterword of the book, Why Global Health Matters. We also have John Randa. He's a physical therapist who grew up in the Midwest. Here he spent some time in Chicago in our backyard, the outcomes racket backyard currently works and received his B.A. in B.S. in kinesiology at the University of Illinois in Champagne Urbana followed by his doctorate in physical therapy from Northwestern University. Now he's a big part of the work MovementX. And I'm so excited to welcome these two dynamic individuals to the podcast. Welcome guys.
: Thanks for having us Saul.
: It's a pleasure. So John, Efosa, fill in the blanks there that I missed anything that you want to share with the listeners.
: No, you hit it. Thanks so much. So thanks for that introductions. It's a hi pleasure to be sharing time with you. I'll also use this time to give a shout out to the rest of our team from MovementX. Two to my older co-founders Keaton Rick. These are Portland Oregon Justy Angel based on at Washington D.C. and we have other team members. Meghan Roussin of Portland Red Gilbert and Scott McAfee and then John. And what makes so much of the work we do fun is the people that we get a chance to do it with someone to give them a shoutout.
: Awesome I love that special shout out to you all. So let's get to the root here. Why did you guys decide to get into the medical sector?
Great question. On my end, so I think early on when I was young, my mom is a nurse and she's been since. So I think the job when I was younger in my early words from a stethoscope or something like that. So I always had my eye on the health care sector and fast forward to college young undergrad the University of Massachusetts and we forget this at the time my sophomore year, my older sister was in physical therapy school at that time. Get her clinical doc in physical therapy and I hopped on the horn with her and I said just talk to me about the profession you know about physical therapy. And in that conversation we talked about the ladder ability of the profession within one month, week and day work with different patients of different ages with different conditions. And that really spoke to me. A rules we'll talk about the whole concept is in your hands and your heart and your words to work out who and to help others. And that really spoke to me as well and through all the time and even started from when I was younger my conscious mind and my subconscious mind I was falling in love with the whole concept that our police force throughout my whole life football all wrestling cross and play lacrosse at UMass as well Parsky lacrosse and then as I talk about continue to think about moving before I was even realizing I was loving moving really thinking about movement it start to hit me. That movement is one of the most important commodities in our lives. You know one of the oldest commodities in our lives with us from the very beginning and throughout. And it really dictates how we engage with the world and how the world engages with us, how we run, how we play, how we dance, how we love, how we live and is really drive my belief that when one is able to maximize their movement capacity and maximize the moving capability able to maximize the life. So I believe that's also humanistic. So much of my work today, occasionally is based around the transformative power of movements.
: Love that Efosa. That's a strong message.
: Yeah, it was a great answer. Tell.
: John, what about you. What got you into this into this business?
: So I grew up summered Faucette just being active and loving health and wellness growing up playing soccer since I was 4. I'm in love ain movement myself and I knew pretty early on whether as late Junior High or early high school that I didn't want to sit behind a desk for my career. Just love moving and so my parents challenge me to go ahead and look into what I wanted to do. When I just whipped up the U.S. News Report article for a top job satisfaction and physical therapist is right there. So I just combined my love for being active in helping others and to wanting to be a physical therapist and haven't looked back since I decided early high school that I wanted to do this.
: Love that. What a great story guys. You know without a doubt, sounds like you've landed in the right place and so you've gotten knee deep into this space with your company, can you share with the listeners a hot topic that you think needs to be on every medical leaders agenda and how are you guys tackling that?
: Yeah, a great question Saul. Thank you much for and I think what's been on my mind I think was big and many health care, leaders and organizations' mind, we really need to reframe how we look at our patients. No longer are patients these passive chess pieces to be moved along, along per here you know just sort of taken in the right direction away. Consumers now and patients now they're active, they're selective and they're more aware. And I think we need to see them as such, treat them as such and speak to them as such. We really provide a and power tools around them to choose what they need and when they need surgery or consultations. Other industries do this well and have been doing this well and use in other entities and extensions like technology to enhance the doing of this well. I think healthcare is catching up, healthcare does have complex tentacles to it. Not maybe all other industries have. But a, that's simply innovation will live for us right. Simplifying the sophistication and simplify our product and pricing in a way that patients. Now we started looking at more consumers that they could help pay to know what to do what. That's on our mind much. And I think that's going to be more and more health care organizations mines as well.
: So how would you say and appreciate those thoughts. Definitely that the healthcare consumerism becoming more real larger co-pays mean that more discerning consumers what are you guys doing at MovementX to help provide differentiated care?
: Yeah so it definitely one of the most of us getting into it a little bit at the end there is just the cost of healthcare in the U.S. and just how much of a problem that is. And that's definitely something that we're working on and how we're addressing this is we're just trying to provide the best care possible. What we're finding is if you go to like a typical private physical therapy place, you often will be double-booked with two or three patients at once and you're just not going to receive the individualized care that you deserve. And that will likely happen is you're going to draw out the visits that you need to get better. And that's going to keep driving up costs. What we're trying to do is we're going to provide as much one on one care with highly trained providers so that we can get the patients faster to reduce costs overall and improve outcomes as well.
: So I now piggyback on that to piggyback on what John said and so so directly asked the last question and that is set up team and talk about MovementX and and what we are we know. So I always like to say. So the context and the concept and the content so that the concept of what we are really starts with any you know MovementX and movement is a fundamental value that I talked about earlier maximizing a movement that allows you to maximize your life. You know what we sometimes see in the world there is a bit of resistance to being healthier to be an active so along with so many other institutions organizations and just people talking about history, we want to make sure that we're encouraging people to be more active in moving. What our company does is not just encourage but enable people to be more active. You know that x40 start playing with the concept of it allows you to explore the world around you, allow you to experience the world around you. And we talk about ex being at the intersection of your best movement and your best life. You know so understanding our fundamental value and then as an organization it can't be the next thing that is building the architecture around that fundamental value. And that does what we're doing there is to bring in rehab clinicians and patients together on a centralized platform, that's one of the front of innovation for a MovementX decentralized platform allows for communication, documentation, payment and scheduling so we like to say create efficiency and effectiveness for people on both sides of the treatment table the patient or the provider so the patients are able to go to our site search for PT what they need, Number Beppo contractors empower choice as well. And what's also important for us is creating an environment for providers to have the support they need to very flexible, flexibly and per the passion and inspiration that got them into physical therapy in the first place and to build their clientele. And what this is ultimately about is quality effective experiences. We're taking the product a physical therapy a movement health or occupational therapy and rehab medicine to where the patient is and where that product could be more functional whether it's their home. Wether it was a fitness of where's the office. And to your question of how we're solving this. We just officially launched a couple of months ago Saul in about April. So we're pretty exciting times. So what we're seeing is, thank you so much, but what we're seeing is mission vision and being manifest that leaning into these pinpoint to the fulfilling of fundamental values being manifested when a patient has back pain or shoulder pain. So now they're able to go to our website within 24 hours 48 hours and they could be seen it that they had a PT come to their home. You know so we know all the research shows especially some of these musculoskeletal issues will be able to address it quicker rather than later. It is just a chance for that. It gives you a better chance here that the chance for that to become a chronic issue. So we're doing that to collaborate. That's what we're working on. And the final point is that the best that does that this best still has communication collaboration with other disciplines is specifically refer to other disciplines that interconnectivity is healthcare at its best.
: Very cool, very cool. Thanks for walking us through that guys and. So in other words you guys are crowdsourcing PT and providing with that crowdsourcing some price transparency which is highly needed.
: I love that word transparency because early on in this to be noted early on Rexy a cash pay eventually going to be integrating with insurance. Right now, we want to minimize the overhead in some of the operations that insurance entails. But we believe that's a front that we could go in often is because a lot of healthcare now as you do pay a copay but you get your sessions it is like that or your care and then a lot of your bill comes three or four or five or six months down the road. While a know without much understanding with this sort of control and personalization of selecting who treat you. You know as a provider that work with that provider to personalize your treatment plan and the scheduling of that and paying upfront session or be a bundling payment. You have more awareness of your cost and we think that's very important. And what we do to make that makes sense for the person will provide super bills to patients so that they could submit well received and super a bill to their insurance company or payer to get cover.
: Yeah that's pretty cool. And another thing that comes to mind Efosa, John is you know I went to Walgreens the other day and I had like a little thing going on in my shoulder. I had like a tough workout my trainer kind of beat me up but it was good it was good and I'm like Man I need, I mean like when those little massagers so going to walgreens and I go to the section where the little massaging things and the yoga stuff is and I find it and there's a little like sticker on it that says you can use your flexible spending account or flexible savings account. Oh wow that's cool. So I carry it in my wallet and I go to the counter and I give it to her and boom wala! So just a thought for you guys if there's a way that you guys could somehow make your offering FSA approved this would be a big big motivator for people.
: I love that thought.
: Especially on the cash front right.
: Yeah. Yeah I love that so much. We talked about that peripherally but in your anecdote in your experience. I want to bring that back center Saul. You know into your point what you just describe is also bringing and putting the product in that choice where people are you and Walgreens so well there's Walgreens or CBS or whether you're a yoga studio being able to get the treatment or the ability to schedule a treatment, whether it's virtually no platform or the places where you spend your time. And then again not everything needs to be a 60 minute treatments session. It could be a 20-30 minute work or just do a quick assessment. Look at the functional presentation of the structural presentation of sole shoulder also has serve a region maybe is thoracic region as well. So your findings and not get a treatment in 20-30 minutes and voila. And I could do a quick payment to your FSA. So that's a whole deal with without company building the infrastructure for that to be possible.
: I love it. I love I love the idea guys and and I think this platform has the opportunity to be very disruptive to the current cost models and lack of efficiency as you've stated in the way that things are are organized today. All right so guys you're at the beginning of your of your journey but you're making some big strides. Give us an example of some setback that you had up to this point or maybe with a previous experience that led you to start this company. Take us to that setback. Let us know what you learned?
: Absolutely. So at my first job as a physical therapist, I was literally like two hours a day for my 90 day reviewer they would just release me and I wouldn't be supervised. But I was seeing three patients at that one time and became focused on one of them. And then I saw another one was doing lunges with too much weight. And he ended up tweaking as quadriceps muscle so that that was not ideal but so certainly I could have been paying more attention and we would have been unable to prevent this situation. However looking back on it I just like zooming out and taking more of a macro approach. I started thinking about just what was going on with having to be responsible for managing three patients at once and that there is just an inherent problem with that. So when I heard about the mission of MovementX this year I just absolutely jumped at the chance of hopping onboard this wonderful company just to try to change that experience that I can give patients by being able to be put in a situation where I can just provide one on one specialized care for patients.
: That's awesome man. So the opportunities there for you. The opportunities there for all patients and listeners, a take away that you should get after on some of the things that have been shared today is just that doesn't matter where you're at and where whether you be at the middle of your career the beginning or close to the end. There's always an opportunity for you to take it to the next level and make outcomes better and Efosa, and John are an example of just that. So I applaud you guys for your courage. Now what about the other side of the coin you guys have talked to us about a setback how about it. What are your proudest medical leadership moments that you've experienced today?
: I'll jump in there. So some of my works also the nonprofit sector. So like you mentioned a afront and one of my moments is that I was able to be a part of early on and now I'm just hanging on being an inspiration by the professional large so cheers to work you so 2015, I did a trip around the world around 22 countries in eight months you know amazing and the idea is the hope was to create a montage mosaic of health service physical therapy rehab medicine different cultures around the world get a sense of the similarities differences and enjoy the beauties that lie within those and use that to be a better person and to do good in the world so great trip. That's be a long conversation for a long time.
: We'll save that for when we meet and have some coffee together.
That sounds good, that sounds good. In month four, I was in Peru. I was doing some work in Iquitos, Peru which is only Amazon River you can only approach it by boat or by plane. And while I was in the Amazon while I was in Peru this one day in Iquitos I was taking a boat tour the service site. So I was on the Amazon River taking a boat to the service site and so a laso on his boat on my way to the service site this idea that had been in the back of my mind for some time simply shot to the front of it. The idea is this what will challenge students to conditions of the physical therapy profession around the country and around the world to do an active service on the same day and what will challenge those people willing do an active service share the moments happy images have connections made main line on social media in different websites. What might that look like a need for the bond within our profession. What might that look like in me for the bread of our profession to the world at large. So one of my co-founders on MovementX I called him and I emailed him as soon as I got back to the mainland that day about the idea and he was just so positive about it he said not only do we have to do this, can't not do this. So we started the other co-founder for MovementX Keaton Ray and we started this initiative called PT Day of Service and 2015 and the first year we had 28 countries participate in all 50 states in the U.S. the second year we had 42 countries participate in all 50 states in the U.S. and last year we had 55 countries participate in all 50 states in the U.S.. Now we have a team of 20 plus people that work on it now and just a friend within the profession that we know you know for any other professions just come together daily and serve locally in their community for a global affect. I'm proud to be part of the community now serving around the world.
: That's awesome. And I love that you're like Yeah I was on the Amazon River I'm like you just had me at Amazon river man. Yes. Then it got better from there. You guys have done some really great things to create a movement around the profession of PT so something to be proud of. Congratulations on that.
: And I'd even like to jump in on an experience that relates to that of faces with absolute machine and he started another non for profit organization called Nu together along with Josh D'Angelo that they built what was a couple clinics and a day last year right Efosa.
: Yeah we will rebuild and rehab clinic in a second most populous city in Guatemala.
: Not kidding. Love it.
So I was fortunate enough to receive an email from a Efosa last winter asking me to join him this year January turned me in a wave in Guatemala to serve for a week at the clinic they had built and that was without a doubt the proudest medical experience that I've had. We're literally providing physical therapy in its purest form and which the patient was getting the exact care that they needed without being rushed in and out of the door and there was just absolutely incredible to give this experience to patients when this was likely their first time just encountering another health care provider where we could listen to their problems. Just so empowering just just to see the difference we can make. And fortunately I was able to meet the other three founders and MovementX with Josh D'Angelo and Keaton Ray also being on that trip as well.
: That's awesome. There's no doubt you guys are up to some really cool stuff I was looking at the PT Day of Service folks if you're curious go to ptdayofservice.com, you'll find them. You could find movement X at movement-x.com and no doubt you guys are doing some really fun stuff that is both meaningful and impactful and that's what we seek to do here. And the outcomes rocket has shared the stories of those who are doing what you all are up to. So why don't you tell us about. I mean no doubt MovementX is the exciting project but within MovementX, is there something that you want to share to the listeners about what you guys are doing there a project or focus?
For MovementX. Yeah. So like we launched three markets, where in Chicago, we're in DC and we're in Portland and I really know the infrastructure of the organizations that bring to providers and patients together where it's most functional. So one thing that we always say there's five fronts of innovation that we operate 5Ps you know one piece is a platform. The second P is that people know those are providers and everything. And really all people were really empowering our providers. Secondly is innovating payment. So when the people schedule our perceptions are looking at different a bumbling package and things of that nature. The 4th P is a product you know what's been fascinating for me to really think about since I graduated PT school in 2010. This is not just for PT this for healthcare is a really appreciate the whole spectrum of healthcare, or too often we focus on a hat. Wait for a person to be injured or sick or hurt you know especially with a professional physical therapy and really much of the medicine not just wait for somebody to be hurt to come to us or to see to see us. How can we work with people to help optimize you know their system and their body so soul comes in I see so again I look at his functional presentation structure presentation as a workplace environment, how he's doing what he does whether it's run, jump, play the whole night, based on what he tells me subjectively replacement I see objectively and basin with them talk about creating a precise and personalized plan for him. So we're creating programs we have a program called optimize it which would be the case and also creating us also small or mode programs or or Chronixx excuse me know which for work with different regions of the body and then it becomes about partnering with different companies organizations again where we can take that directly to their employees. So that's stuff that we're cooking in the oven right now Saul you know we're going to go vertical and the market Stodden mentioned before we go horizontal geographically.
: Super exciting and listeners, I just had a chance to go over to movement-X and signed up, I created an account. It's pretty seamless. You go in and you could see all of the the PT providers that are available licensed and ready to service you. I think you guys should check this out movement-X. Check it out. It's affordable. And hey, if you want to do your part to make healthcare better try this out and consider it your way of doing what's best for health care but it's also going to help you. If these guys by the time you listen to this podcast I'm sure they'll get their FSA platform ready. So give it a shot right guys. You commit to getting this done?
: I'm committed. We're going to look into it today.
I love it. I like it well. Whether or not it's done it may be done in there but you should check it out folks. I love the layout and I love where this is going guys. Thank you for sharing it getting close to the end of the podcast here. Let's pretend you and I are building a medical leadership course and what it takes to be successful in PT today is the 101 of these amazing folks at MovementX. So I've got four questions lightning round style and then we'll follow up by your all time favorite book. You ready guys?
: Yup, fire away.
: So maybe we'll do like what on one. You guys choose. So what's the best way to improve healthcare PT outcomes?
: I think it's taking the time and listening to your patients. There's a quote by an infamous physical therapist Robin McKenzie and he says listen to your patient they will usually tell you the key to resolving the problem. If you'll only listen to them.
: Love it. What's the biggest mistake or pitfall to avoid?
: I think it's becoming complacent and straying from your mission vision and values.
: How do you stay relevant as an organization despite constant change?
: I love that question. I think the key to that Saul is pulling parallels from the market or pulling from other markets or industry whether they were parallel or seen with less perpendicular orders Amazon or Uber or AirBnB or anything that you could think of. I always like to say Gretzky has his quote, "I wouldn't past the pop where the person was. I pass it to where the person was going to win". That's a mind and a mentality that grabs us.
: Love that. It's one of my favorites. What's one of the areas that should drive everything and a health care organization?
: I'm going to cheat on this a little bit but when I see what I'm about to say I see them all interconnected. I think one has to be product-centric and product believing the greatest options and products for your customers. When I see mission-driven you know a lot of things I learned from my time the nonprofits spaces for-profits need to be more like for-profit and in terms of being mission-driven and nonprofits need to be more like for profit when it comes to operation. So being mission-centric and mission-driven being customer-centric, lighting up your customer absolutely every single day, building this amazing experience around them. Amazon talked about that a lot. And then one is key I think all industries and all employess will do this better as being providers-centric. You know really feeding your routine nourishing providers and haltered conditions because when they're nurtured when they're supported when they're empowered that's going to lead to a better care and that's going to lead to better results. That's going to lead to a better everything. So as much as you think about our customer and our patients movement we think about providers as well.
: I love that. And what would you say your all time favorite book is guys?
: Mine is called the Winter fortress it's by Neil Basque and it's not a book about business or health or wellness actually it's actually a historical novel about a group of soldiers in Norway taking over a nuclear power plant that the Germans had taken over to prevent a nuclear strike. And it's just there's so many overarching undertones of just the grit and determination of the soldiers going weeks without eating and having to sleep in blizzards outside. And just like when I just think about just if I'm complaining about waking up at six thirty in the morning to go to a meeting or just try to keep building business growing I just have no reason to complain when I compare to what they do.
: Great. That's a great example John and I'm a big fan of thinking about business and also the care process as seasons. Every one of us will go through different seasons and those that are able to endure the winter will come out on the other side stronger and ahead of the pack. I love that example.
: I love. We're definitely going to have a dual copy Saul.
: Let's do it.
: On my front, Count of Monte Cristo is my favorite book, I'm not sure how nice.
: That's nice.
: That will be to the crowd, I love that book as Alexander Dumas and I just love so much about that book. What I'm currently reading now. It's a book called Peak by Anders Ericsson who talks a lot and Robert Poole is a writer on there. It talks about deliberate practice you know the right practice the right amount of time over x amount of time to achieve mastery of deliberate practice and Gladwell actually based a lot of a good amount of work on that with the outliers. Look at the whole 10,000 hours a minor injures versus research. Keep my ears open.
: Love it. Great recommendation. The syllabus listeners is here for you. Just go to outcomesrocket.health/movementx and you'll be able to find that there along with the transcript, links to the resources, their websites and all the other things that we discussed and the books. You're going to find that their outcomesrocket.health/movementx. John, Efosa, before we conclude, I love if you could just share a closing thought for the listeners. And then the best way that they could get in touch with you.
: Absolutely. Just in general I think just chase your dreams and embrace being uncomfortable. If you have aspirations of starting a business don't build it. Want to learn to play an instrument. Go play it. I just feel like it is so easy in this day and age to become content and not continue to grow and learn. I think we tend to underestimate the time we have in a day but overestimate the time we have in our lives. Just like paraphrase a quote from Les Brown he says the graveyard is the richest place on earth as there is so many unfulfilled dreams. Because someone is too afraid to take their first steps and carry out their dreams. So just go out move and do that brother and then yeah just in terms of contacting me just email, it's firstname.lastname@example.org
: Awesome. Efosa?
: Yes I love it.
: Take us home baby.
: A quote center founded by the Irish poet David White. Here's a quote. How do you know that you're on your own path, you can't see where it's going. That's how you know and how do you know they you're doing something radical, your path disappears. So the balance of always having vision but embracing the unknown and living your unique journey and humor. That's what my heart and that's on my soul.And there's three cogs I would say it is a wake abuse day. Know your daily joy and pursue it each and every day. The second a second cogs on my heart and his whole concept of living life with intentionality. You know like like John said solo or you want to build something build ability think the best person for job explained to the boss he or she is sure why you are. I'm 32 years old now. What I've seen in my 32 years is that opportunities don't come around to see them twice. At the very least they don't come around twice in the same form so when an opportunity comes around in the form misspeaks they're not grab by it's hair tops to say in our everyday play and move as much as you care. So those are my thoughts they're my email address is email@example.com. It's been the highest of pleasure your time if you so and also share your time with your listeners. Thank you so much.
: Hey it's been a pleasure having both of you. Efosa and John. Thank you all both for making the time to be with us and we're excited to keep up with your success because your success means the betterment of outcome. So appreciate you guys taking the time to be with us.
: Thank you Saul.
: Thank you Saul.
Hey Outcomes Rocket friends, thanks for tuning in to the podcast. Once again as a leader in health care you have big ideas great products a story to tell and are looking for ways to improve your reach and scale your business. However there is one tiny problem. Health care is tough to navigate and the typical sale cycle is slow. That's why you should consider starting your own podcast as part of your sales and marketing strategy at the outcomes rocket, I've been able to reach thousands of people every single month that I wouldn't have otherwise been able to reach if not started my podcast. Having this organic reach enables me to get the feedback necessary to create a podcast that delivers value that you are looking for. And the same thing goes if you start a podcast for what you could learn from your customers. The best thing about podcasting in healthcare is that we are currently at the ground level meaning that the number of people in healthcare listening to podcasts is small but growing rapidly. I put together a free checklist for you to check out the steps on what it takes to create your own podcast. You could find that at outcomesrocket.health/podcast. Check it out today and find a new way to leverage the sales, marketing and outcomes of your business. That's outcomesrocket.health/podcast.
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