SONSIEL_Danika Meyer and Joshua Littlejohn: this mp3 audio file was automatically transcribed by Sonix with the best speech-to-text algorithms. This transcript may contain errors.
OR SONSIEL INTRO:
Welcome to the SONSIEL podcast, where we host interviews with the most transformational nurse scientists, innovators, entrepreneurs, and leaders. Through sharing their personal journeys, we create inspiration, provide guidance, and give you actionable ideas you can use to be a catalyst for change.
Hiyam Nadel:
Hello everyone. Welcome back to the SONSIEL podcast. I have always believed that the nursing profession lends itself to a wide array of positions, not only at the bedside but those positions that support the bedside. My two guests today are examples of that versatility in those positions. Danika and Joshua, welcome to the SONSIEL podcast. I would love it if you would both introduce yourselves to our audience. Danika?
Danika Meyer:
Yeah, thank you for having us. You know, I had the opportunity to listen to Joshua’s podcast, and I thought that the parallels between how we started our nursing careers were very interesting. So I don’t even think that Joshua and I have talked about this, but I had a very similar start. You know, I’m the oldest of many siblings, and so caregiving was also a part of my makeup as a child. So I actually had a lot of interests as a kid, but when it came time to choose a profession, you know, nursing was a really big draw for me. I come from a long line of medical professionals, and my father is a nurse and is still a nurse at the bedside, he is one of my healthcare heroes. And, yes, so nursing has been a large part of my family history and immigrant story, all of those things.
Hiyam Nadel:
Fantastic. Joshua.
Joshua Littlejohn:
Hey, everybody. Yeah, Hiyam, I am, let’s see, what else? I want to add on. So I’m a product manager for the nurse experience for IntelyCare. I essentially focus on making the lives better for our clinicians and how they use our products and whatnot. I am going to reference, for the sake of time, I’m going to reference our other podcast. Hey everybody, go listen to the other podcast episode if you want to know more about IntelyCare and what I do and all that sort of stuff. But essentially, I am a second career nurse that shifted over to nursing in 2010 and then from there was at the bedside for a number of years and have firmly pivoted over to technology, had sort of a winding route into technology, and I’m now sort of sending the elevator back down, I guess, to try and bring other nurses not necessarily away from the bedside, that’s not my goal. But to be able to help other nurses see the value that they create and offer other career opportunities for them.
Danika Meyer:
Yeah, and I didn’t even add where I am currently, so I’m glad that Joshua had a chance to do it as well. But yes, so to piggyback off of what Joshua is saying, I’m actually a product owner for a large healthcare organization in pediatrics down in Texas. And following a very similar path to Joshua, and I know that’s a lot of what we hope to talk about today, just, you know, having somebody’s path to follow in when you’re thinking about nontraditional roles no longer at the bedside, but still wanting to make an impact in the nursing community and in healthcare.
Hiyam Nadel:
Thank you, but before we start, because this is really interesting, I have to ask you, Danika, about your dad, who’s a nurse. I’m intrigued by that, and wondering, has he seen, from his perspective, the difference in nursing as a profession early on, as a male? And if he sees a difference now as males in the nursing profession?
Danika Meyer:
You know, it’s very interesting. So he and I have actually not had a very intentional conversation about this topic just because my experience as a child, all of my uncles and my dad were nurses. So to me, the concept of a gender dynamic in nursing wasn’t really a thing. I just, you know, they came over from the Philippines and found nursing as an opportunity to establish a different life in a different country, and they were all in different majors and they just said, hey, let’s do this thing, immigrate to the United States where nursing is a real need and let’s do that. So I think I would love to ask him this question, actually, because he’s never, he is just somebody who just loves the work. He’s dabbled in management and being a health supervisor, and he’s always just loved the bedside, and I don’t think he’s ever really thought consciously about being a man in the nursing profession. You know, it’s healthcare, it’s caregiving, all of those things.
Hiyam Nadel:
So, that’s amazing. That’s an amazing story. All right, so I’m really excited to understand, how did you two meet? How did it develop?
Danika Meyer:
Joshua, do you want me to go, or do you want to go?
Joshua Littlejohn:
Yeah, sure. No, no, you can go. I would love for this to be more about you than me.
Danika Meyer:
Yeah, no, I actually, so, before the pandemic, I had transitioned to information services because we had a digital transformation strategy announced at my organization. So I had just transitioned into IT into an application analyst role, and our organization was pivoting to more of a product-focused methodology, and I had actually joined the SONSIEL Hackathon in November to learn a little bit more about how nurses can get more actively involved in innovation. I’ve always considered myself as somebody who’s really been interested in innovation, but it was really cool to see a group of nurses who had very similar interests, very similar ways of thinking. And so I did the hackathon. I noticed Joshua on Linkedin, and this is where it gets kind of, I don’t know, brave, creepy, who knows? But I actually saw that he had transitioned into a product management role, and I had just found out what that really meant in the industry, and I took the chance and messaged him. I believe he announced his role acceptance into IntelyCare and I thought, wow, there are nurses who are actually doing this. And so I took a shot and messaged him and said, hey, I noticed that this is where your career is going, I’m really interested in this pathway, is there a chance that you would like to meet? I would love to learn more about your path. And honestly, actually, I think it maybe may have been a job announcement like we’re looking for product managers, and I was like, oh, that’s a cool role, I’d love to learn more about product management if there’s a chance I could work for a company like that in the future. And so, really it was more like a job introduction when I first spoke with Joshua. And it’s just now, oh, sorry.
Hiyam Nadel:
No, no, go ahead. Sorry.
Danika Meyer:
Oh, no, it’s just now developed more into a formal mentorship relationship, and I can’t express how critical his guidance has been for me in this journey, so.
Hiyam Nadel:
That’s great, and before I turn over to Joshua, can you tell the audience, Danika, what application versus product means?
Danika Meyer:
Yeah, so Application Analyst is more focused on the technical work and information services, and I would explain, and Joshua can agree or disagree, that product is more strategy-focused and business oriented. They still have to know a lot of the technical speak that goes on maybe at a higher level, depending on what the requirements of each product role is, it’s defined a little bit differently between organizations and companies, but at a high level, that’s essentially what it is. So somebody helping to explain the needs of a customer or a user to somebody who is more technical. And that’s where your application analyst or developer or something like that jumps in. It’s more of a technical role.
Hiyam Nadel:
Got it, got it. Now, Joshua, I want you to explain from your perspective what an application versus product in your, in what you’re living from day to day. But before we get there, do you normally talk to strangers all the time on the Internet?
Joshua Littlejohn:
So I was going to comment on that. I would firmly put Danika’s move into the brave category, not the creepy category at all. In fact, I reach out and link to so many people on LinkedIn. It really is a good tool for that, especially if you’ve done something like a hackathon or you have some sort of shared experience, even if you don’t know anybody. I just, I firmly, I’m in the camp of reach out and talk to strangers on the Internet via a mediated platform. But, but yeah, So I think the easiest answer to your question around analyst versus product, I would say that Danika is spot on. There’s nothing that I would really disagree with there, having been both of those things, as Danika has been both of those things that is my understanding, my lived experience, you know. Analyst, you’re very much in the weeds doing the thing that needs to be done, and product is definitely more strategy business-oriented and big picture. Though, you do get your hands dirty. That’s, certainly not paint that picture, right? You definitely do get your hands dirty when you work in product, especially depending on the role that you have or the company that you’re at or how they’ve defined that role to be at that particular company. Yeah, there’s a lot of opportunity there, which is why I talk about it to nurses a lot, because I think that there’s good overlap in our skill sets, but yeah. So talking to strangers on the Internet, do that all the time. No big deal.
Hiyam Nadel:
Well, I just want you to know that you just made me feel very guilty because I have many messages on LinkedIn, and for all of you in the audience, I am so sorry. I haven’t gotten back to you, but I promise I will. All right, let’s shift a little bit. I think what you said in the beginning, Joshua, about this isn’t about moving nurses from the bedside, because, you know, holistically, we need nurses at the bedside, but we also need, I love the fact that there are nurses doing other things such as yourselves to support the bedside and how critical that is, right? Because you know how it should be done or you have that experience. Would you agree? Maybe can either one of you or both of you can answer?
Joshua Littlejohn:
Yes, yes. I saw something recently actually on LinkedIn and it was somebody commenting about this, not specifically about healthcare or nurses in general, but around career development, and that instead of providing what is a career ladder and a defined path for people, we should really be thinking about as a career portfolio and the option, present options to people and let them make their own decisions within a group or a family of jobs or, you know, an organization or something. But essentially, instead of this line-driven, like you must go forward, you cannot go left or right sort of progression, we should think about it more expansively, and I think that’s what I’m coming to the table with, around keeping people in nursing because, you know, you can move away from the bedside and still be a nurse, we all know that, right? There’s plenty of nonbedside nursing roles that you still say I am a nurse, but I do X, Y, or Z rather than provide direct patient care. And so that’s, like I said, that’s where I’m sort of going with what I’m going with these days.
Hiyam Nadel:
Absolutely, and I just think a lot of the frustration and the burnout sometimes is because things are done for us, or things are created without our input, without our knowledge and experience. And that’s why it frustrates us because it just doesn’t quite work as well as it could. And Danika, you want to add to that?
Danika Meyer:
I do, yeah, that’s a lot of my transition, right? So, you know, to build off of the concept of frustration because people have assumed what our needs are, I think is a huge part of transitioning to what Joshua said was the left and the right, right? We’re told that our trajectory in nursing is, a lot of people believe it’s you become a nurse, you work at the bedside for a little while, you transition into an advanced practice role or education or leadership, and those are really the only channels for professionalism. But I think what’s interesting about what we’re doing is that you know, when we transitioned to these roles, at least from my perspective, I wanted to channel that frustration, and I want to learn the language of how some of these decisions are made. And when people are coming up with technical solutions that impact my colleagues and my peers and what I could return to the bedside to. What language are people using and how do we educate other nurses to know what questions to ask? And, you know, when I’m thinking about our transitions into product, I never wanted to, I tell people this all the time, it’s not like I want to do this career change and then go work for a bank, right? It’s still going to be very focused within healthcare, within nursing about those workflows and how I as a nurse bring so much to the table with a lot of clinical knowledge, and now I’m armed with technical knowledge, with business knowledge to advocate for other nurses, other healthcare workers, healthcare in general, and our patients, because of that insight, I think is so, so important. And I’m so grateful that Joshua, you know, he made me believe, like, wow, this is a path I can follow. Somebody is already doing it, you know?
Hiyam Nadel:
Yeah, yeah. No, you, all your statements really just drive it all home. Thank you. So where are you in your journey right now? How are you doing it?
Danika Meyer:
Yeah, I would say my journey right now is still learning. I think what’s exciting about this type of roles in product, it’s just like my role was in education, right? Nursing and healthcare is always changing, and just like technology is always changing, there’s always lots of things to learn. So I’m still learning strategies, I’m still learning about what product really means, how it fits into the framework of where I currently work. And so a lot of it is formalizing some of my own education that I took upon myself to learn about what product really is. And right now I’m a product owner, but still doing a lot of product management work, and there’s a whole session we probably could do to talk about what the difference between these things are. But yeah, it’s still a lot of learning and I’m still very early, I would say. I’ve been in Information Services Tech for a little over two years now, but yeah, maybe I’ll always feel that way because that’s how I felt in education, things are always changing.
Hiyam Nadel:
Do you, are you still at the bedside or do you feel like you can still learn at the bedside without being at the bedside?
Danika Meyer:
I would say the latter, and because I still work within a healthcare system. So Joshua’s role differs from mine is that he’s what we call in industry. So he works for a different type of company than I do, and I’m still within healthcare and the healthcare system. And so because of the nature of my role and what I specifically do, I still get to interact with clinicians at a very direct level. I get to go visit inpatient units and my role is really focused on that inpatient experience. So I still have a lot of that. I still get to work with people from my old unit, which is really, really fun for me. I still enjoy that very much. So, no, I’m not at the bedside. I’m not a practicing clinician in that sense. I’m still a nurse and I still get to interact with other clinicians and see patients when I walk around the hospital. But no, I’m not at the bedside.
Hiyam Nadel:
Thank you, thank you. And what activities have helped you along this journey? I know you mentioned the SONSIEL hackathon and that’s when you reached out to Joshua. Are there other things that you’ve done?
Danika Meyer:
Yeah, after the SONSIEL hackathon, it actually was a really great launching point, I made some connections, and some participants and I, who were on my hackathon team, we ended up going on to do an ideator program at Vanderbilt, that was a wonderful experience, and I got so much out of that, and it was very similar to a lot of the things that you do in product, and that was free. It was one, it was great. And I also did a lot of certifications, so I formally got my CSPO, which deals with a lot of the methodology used in product work, and then I went on to do and get a product management certification which helped, and those were all things that I wanted to do for myself. I got some really great advice from someone that if there’s going to be something that will help build your foundational knowledge, don’t wait for an organization to do that. You just do it, which is a challenge because some of those things cost money, but I’ve found that to be very, very true.
Hiyam Nadel:
Yes, absolutely, yes. I’m always encouraging nurses that I work with, and that the money piece is really quite a barrier for many. So I agree. I think sometimes you have to say what is really going to not just launch but really project that progress. So turning to you, Joshua, I know you’ve made this transition already in working for an industry. How does this align with your experience?
Joshua Littlejohn:
So everything that Danika has sort of said about moving from the bedside into something, something else, and then from there pivoting again into tech, that, I mean, when we started talking, it was kind of scary how similar our journeys have sort of been, right? It’s just that I might, I feel like I’m a few steps or stepping stones ahead. However, having said that, Danika, you are very modest, I would completely say that you were at the point, right, like, like you have been drinking from the fire hose. You have taken it upon yourself to, like you just said, to do all those certifications and get all of those extra experiences. You know, you’ve done exactly what the advice that I’ve given to other people is, which is not necessarily play or make it to, you know, fake it till you make it, but essentially engage in low-risk opportunities that enable you to use those skills about, you know, that are going to get you to where you want to go so that you can start to build a portfolio or in behavioral interviews, you can say, oh yeah, I did this thing, this project and this is what we worked on, this was the problem, this was the outcome. Like, you now have that story you can go through and, you know, say in an interview or to other people, other nurses that also reach out to you via the Internet. I think in nursing, we have this tradition of see one, do one, teach one, which is very much a bedside sort of thing, but I think it totally applies here. And I have to say, you know, when you reached out to me, I also did not feel like I was in any, not that I wasn’t in any place to offer something to someone else. It was, I didn’t and still don’t feel that I have quote-unquote, sort of like, made it. Like I’m all the way to the other side of the bridge sort of thing, but I think for me, it’s more important to bring people along on my journey. Again, going with the whole nursing see one, do one, teach one, right? I saw one, I participated in a hackathon, I, you know, I did one, I organized one, met a whole bunch of other people, and I guess now I can say that I’m teaching one, question mark.
Danika Meyer:
Yes. Who’s being modest now?
Joshua Littlejohn:
It’s more along the lines of bringing other people along with you, right? I want to have people in my group and going along the journey with me. So I was just as excited to have somebody reach out to me as I think you are, to reach out to somebody else and have them say, yes, you know?
Danika Meyer:
That’s so funny. I would never have thought that. You’re so good at articulating everything, so.
Hiyam Nadel:
You know what? I also find just talking to a lot of nurses is that you said Joshua resonates with lots of nurses, as you’re always questioning yourself, you know, is, can I really do this and am I good at this and I’m making this career change? And should I done that, it should have I done that, etc. Do you think that’s nursing more or less or just the human condition?
Joshua Littlejohn:
Oh, I think that’s an onion. There’s a lot of layers to that question.
Hiyam Nadel:
There’s a lot of layers, I know.
Joshua Littlejohn:
Yeah, I don’t know if it’s nursing. I think maybe it’s a certain personality. I think that maybe it’s personality type, maybe it is shared history. I don’t know, common experience, life experiences. I don’t know what drives us to that, but I think the output, the outcome of all of whatever is the black box is, yes, that we tend to question ourselves and whether we’re ready. Danika, would you agree?
Danika Meyer:
Absolutely, I think that’s probably a human thing. You know, I think too, it’s hard because whenever you look at transitioning into a role that feels so different to what you’ve been doing, it feels like an enigma. And there’s a lot of layers to, man, can I do that? But, you totally can, you know? We talk about transferable skills and it sounds like something people just say to make you feel like you can do something, but I absolutely have found it to be true. You know, clear communication is a standard in any job, and I feel like nurses do that really well. So yeah, no, to answer your initial question, definitely a human thing.
Hiyam Nadel:
Yeah, and thank you because the point I was really trying to get across is that we all question ourselves, but we have so much to offer, and that’s what I want to get across to the audience, to not be afraid and move forward. Now, Danika, I just want to turn over to you. I know you’ve mentioned several times how much Joshua has changed or shaped your journey and what other sources of information or pathfinding have helped you. I know you went and got your certifications, but were there other non-nursing mentors in addition or different conversations with Joshua? You know, tell us more about that mentorship.
Danika Meyer:
Yeah, I would love to add, you know, I think anybody who is transitioning into something that that seems unfamiliar, it’s always so important to have someone like Joshua, who has also been a nurse, because there’s just that relatability, right? Having to navigate the same types of situations, scenarios, but because product is such a tech-focused role, I really found it important to me to reach out to people who were, who did not have backgrounds, that were nurses, to help me balance that perspective, right? So I also have a non-nursing product leader mentor who helps me navigate some of the things that are less familiar to me. I think Joshua has been really critical to say, here are the parallels between nursing, here is the way that we should do things and of course, all of the product-related knowledge as well. But then also having somebody else who is who does not have the perspective of a clinician to maybe help me think of things a little bit differently, and I think that’s really applicable to the nursing profession in general, right?
Hiyam Nadel:
That’s right.
Danika Meyer:
So inviting other voices, other perspectives to help us improve processes, I think is really important.
Hiyam Nadel:
Yeah, and it’s also very, very reflective of the innovation methodology, right? Diverse, as much diversity as you can bring to the table, and voices and perspectives, how enriching that solution can be. So I do want to say we all are, I consider all of us trailblazers, and with that comes some challenges. Can you talk about some of your challenges, Danika?
Danika Meyer:
I think you touched on it earlier, just, you know, second-guessing yourself when there’s really no need to. I would say that and then in the transition piece, you know, when you’re transitioning to something new, it’s really trying to catch up with knowledge that other people may have and just getting over the fact that it feels like starting over. And I know I’ve shared this with Joshua and others before, but at the point where I was in my career prior to transitioning to tech, I would say that I was, you know, my next step would have been maybe to be a director of education or something somewhere. I had just really reached that level where, you know, I feel like I’ve learned what I can from this and I am starting to see the same types of problems reoccur now. And I decided to jump into something totally different and it felt like starting over. It was like I was a brand new nurse ten years into my career, right? And I think that was a really big challenge for me. But at the same time, it was such a great reminder that, man, there’s so much to learn. And it really allowed me to kind of approach this with an open mind and be able to ask the questions that I need to and just really level set with humility all over again, which was great. I think everybody needs that.
Hiyam Nadel:
For sure, for sure. And now both of you are SONSIEL members. How is SONSIEL helping you in your journey? It sounds like going to that hack, you knew like something was different about you or you wanted to do something different, and it sounds like the hackathon may have been one of the launching pads for you and the connections.
Danika Meyer:
I would definitely agree with that. I mean, I just, it was so much energy with people who thought the same or just wanted to learn something new and people who were just honestly doing it on their own time, which was really, really fun. I mean, I have always felt very different in my nursing career and didn’t necessarily have peers. So I would say that SONSIEL has given me community, and be able to look around the room and say, okay, it’s not just me. There are other people who are interested in doing the things that I’m interested in doing.
Hiyam Nadel:
Yes, yeah, SONSIEL is definitely my tribe as well. And Joshua, anything about, anything you would like to add about SONSIEL?
Joshua Littlejohn:
Yeah, I think that a sense of community is the number one thing to drive home here, right? It’s you know, however you phrase it, however you approach it, it is literally opportunities to connect with other people who are maybe the black sheep in whatever organization you’re in sort of thing or just folks who are in the same general vicinity, you know, completely different. I’ve met people through SONSIEL who are in completely different stages of their nursing career, people who have been nurses for 35, 40 years, or longer, brand new, new grad nurses, but we all sort of are brought together by some sort of greater curiosity to combine nursing with something else, and that’s what I really like. It’s just the opportunity to come together with that group of individuals.
Hiyam Nadel:
Fantastic, there’s a lot of exciting things about innovation, nursing, and science. What would each of you like to leave the audience with today? Danika, I’ll start with you.
Danika Meyer:
Sure. I’m going to keep it brief. Just be brave. Just put yourself out there, be courageous, don’t be scared. I think that’s probably the one thing I would like to leave everyone with and for the people I’ve had the privilege to speak with over LinkedIn, I think that’s the exact sentiment I leave them with is just, just do it.
Hiyam Nadel:
Great, I love that. Just do it. Joshua.
Joshua Littlejohn:
There’s a plug there for Nike.
Hiyam Nadel:
I know.
Danika Meyer:
You can take that out if you need to.
Hiyam Nadel:
I love it. I love that slogan.
Joshua Littlejohn:
I would leave the audience with just reiterating this: see one, do one, teach one, right? Like we all know in nursing, literally it’s see one, do one, teach one, right? We all know that by the time we get to the teach one thing, it’s not like we’ve gone through it 300 times and we are, we can do it with our eyes closed and we’re experts. It’s try different things and bring people along with you. So see one, do one, teach one. Basic nursing, right?
Hiyam Nadel:
That’s great. Okay, everyone out there, you’ve heard it here. You can reach them both through LinkedIn. They do respond. So thank you for listening in. This was excellent. Thank you both for joining me today.
Danika Meyer:
Thank you so much.
Joshua Littlejohn:
Thanks Hiyam.
OR SONSIEL OUTRO:
Thanks for tuning in to the SONSIEL podcast. If today’s podcast inspired you, we invite you to join our tribe or support our mission by visiting us at SONSIEL.org. That’s S O N S I E L .org.
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