Justin Perun, Founder and CEO MedPay & Healthy Habits

Healthy Habits- Connecting Health & Financial Wellness with Justin Perun, Founder and CEO MedPay & Healthy Habits transcript powered by Sonix—easily convert your audio to text with Sonix.

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Saul Marquez:
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Saul Marquez:
Welcome back to the Outcomes Rocket, Sol Marquez is here, and today I have the privilege of hosting Justin Perun. He’s an experienced entrepreneur with over 10 plus years of startup experience. He’s currently the founder and CEO of Med Pay and Healthy Habits, both startup companies and the health care industry. The mission of the companies is to create and offer a suite of technology enabled financial products that would positively transform today’s health care industry for payors, providers and patients. His approach is unique, and I’m really excited to share what he’s up to through today’s interview. So Justin, I’m privileged to have you here with me and all of our listeners.

Justin Perun:
Thank you very much. Appreciate the opportunity.

Saul Marquez:
Yes, sir. And so, you know, there’s so many neat things going on in the way that you guys are approaching payments and health care. Before we dive into that, though, Justin, I love to hear more about you and what has driven your interest in career and health care. Sure.

Justin Perun:
Sure back in 2019, sold the business and the consumer finance base and merchant services help transition that business to the to the existing ownership. Still have a little small equity stake there and involved in that business, but started kind of looking around saying, OK, how can consumer finance and what I did, a merchant services to a pretty crowded space. What industries need a little bit assistance there where we can take some of that experience and apply it and just happen to come across health care just because of some family members and some family friends that have been involved in the health care industry. And then also as a result of kind of a personal experience where my father was diagnosed very early with a stage of cancer and we caught it early. But he also had a cancer policy through through Aflac for a number of years. And when we start talking about, OK, what is this going to impact us financially? We realized that we weren’t in the only the only ones in the sea thinking about that situation. And so tapping into some of our family, my family network family and friends just started kind of looking at how could we positively impact the health care industry as it relates to patient financing, not only when the people are getting or having the care and services performed, but also as it relates to just health care and insurance as a whole from high deductible plans, things of that nature. So that’s really kind of where it came from.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, no, that’s that’s really interesting. And and yeah, not everybody has the fortune of having that type of stop loss insurance or, you know, cancer insurance. It’s a problem. Thirty three percent of all bankruptcies happen, no actually, Sixty six percent of all bankruptcies happen because of health care. So you guys are in a very important space. Tell us a little bit more about MedPay and Healthy Habits. How are you guys adding value to the health care ecosystem?

Justin Perun:
Yeah, sure. So through Med Pay, we’ll kind of tackle that one first. We have a product called Meatpaper Relief where we basically we engage directly with the medical provider, whether that’s an independent medical practice, whether that’s a hospital, a network of hospitals or a specialized medical merchant. We engage through what we call a program agreement. In that program agreement, we outline and defined a propensity, the pay score model. So what we’ve done Saul is essentially we’ve created a situation where we’re not a debt buyer. We’re actually allowing the patient to decide whether he or she needs to have financing and if they need financing for the care services that are being performed, how could they get financing at no additional interest and how could we make it so that way everybody wins in that scenario. So when a patient comes in, it’s self-service, they can fill out the application online or through through the eight hundred number. And because we already have that relationship with the medical provider, they know that they’re going to accelerate their cash flow. When a patient engages with Med Pay relief, no patient has ever denied. So we have one hundred percent acceptance rate at that point. It just all depends on where you fall in the scale of the propensity to pay model. And then in addition to that, the benefit to the patient is we provide them, unlike traditional credit facilities where they provide them one single amount for a term. We actually provide the patient with options. So we give them three options based on how they complete the financial application. We then come back to them and say, OK, you’ve qualified for six, nine, 12 months or 12, 15, 18 months and here’s your monthly or biweekly payment. So we really try to make it so that it can fit anyone’s budget at any given time so they don’t have to make the decision. OK, do I pay this bill this month or do I not? Do I put gas on the table? These are things that everybody kind of laughs that to a certain degree to say, well, well, that’s that’s ridiculous. Now, these are real decisions that people are making as it relates to their health care and their day to day living. And so that’s kind of how we engage on the MedPage relief side with healthy habits. It’s a little different. We went a little bit upstream, if you will, started working directly with insurance companies, with benefit consultants and then direct to the employer, the plans sponsor, whereby through a membership based program, we’re employing a employee benefit, that the employee benefit gets certain discounts, rewards, perks, all with a lean towards health care and living a healthy lifestyle. But the hook of that platform, really for every single person in the membership is that everyone is preapproved for a zero percent interest line of credit, minimum of a thousand dollars.

Justin Perun:
The ceiling is fifteen thousand, and that money can only be applied and used to pay down their deductibles, their co-pays and their out-of-pocket medical expenditures. So the idea is, is that we want to be able to change the behavior of people as it relates to how they think about saving for their health care and how they use their money as it relates to the care that or services that they’re looking to be performed. We think that most people don’t have, quote unquote, a safety net available to them. Most people are living paycheck to paycheck, especially during the pandemic. People are living on much tighter budgets. And so we feel that this is a great way to employ a different way and that through a membership model to give people that safety net, that if they need to go to see a doctor or if they have a telemedicine platform through their employer, they’ll be able to say confidently that, yes, when they receive a bill, they have that ability to say, yes, I’m going to be able to pay that. And that’s one less thing off the plate, less stress in their life, which hopefully will give them the be the ability to be more productive day to day.

Saul Marquez:
Very interesting, Justin. So I appreciate the insight here. You know, that consumer finance approach angle is certainly unique. As you know, the health care industry, we don’t do much from a consumer’s standpoint, although it’s getting better. So this is fresh and I appreciate you educating us on this. You guys don’t buy that. You actually get ahead of it. And through the provider, offer the option to use the program directly and then through the employer sponsored programs, you do it through the employer. So talk to us a little bit about what that looks like. So this the zero percent thing is what I’m kind of wrapping my brain around and wondering, OK, so if it’s a zero percent loan, how are you guys making money?

Justin Perun:
Yes, everybody everybody kind of ask the same question and it’s a different approach and how you look at it. So when you look at MedPay Relief and it’s a zero percent interest payment plan, the way that we’re making money is obviously through buying the debt at a discount. So when an individual engages in our payment plan and again, we’re doing that through a propensity to pay score model, if let’s just say, for example, a patient has a thousand dollars outstanding balance for services that were performed, they decide to engage with MedPay relief. We scorn rank them through our application process as a fee for the sake of example. And that’s a 50 percent discount. Once that patient executes the payment plan, makes their first payment, we’re then putting the provider directly within twenty four to 48 hours in a nonrecourse fashion, less the discount. So in that example, thousand dollar outstanding balance, we pay the provider five hundred dollars. Nonrecourse.

Saul Marquez:
Makes sense.

Justin Perun:
They’re no longer involved in the patient now was a member of MedPay Relief. And obviously what we’re trying to do is make recoup more than the five hundred. We’re trying to recoup the four thousand. There’s going to be defaults. But but essentially we’re taking the risk on that patient. When you look at the healthy habits side, it’s more of a utilization place. So you have to equate it more towards credit card utilization is a great way to look at it. OK, I’ve got one hundred members, OK, through one plan sponsored by your employer in all hundred are employed and they are engaged in the membership. 30 percent at any given time is probably going to use that line of credit. That’s based on our statistics and research that we’ve done. So that means 70 percent of the people are engaged using the rewards and perks platform, but they’re not using the line of credit. So my cost of capital and running that line of credit is negligible because all I’m providing is the rewards and perks to those individuals. So it’s really becomes a utilization play for us. So, again, our whole model and the way our motto of the company has always been trying to get people to pay for their health care, but not have to pay more for their health care, unlike other platforms that are out there that they’re either charging interest or they’re more of a credit card or hybrid type of situation. We’ve always said it’s zero percent interest across the board. It’s not an introductory offer. It’s always not going to cost you more than what the bill is at the end of the day.

Saul Marquez:
Love it. And a very unique approach. And kudos to you guys and obviously the consumer we have to deal with with the payments. This is a great way to do it with some flexibility. And so obviously, his approach is what makes you guys different. And so talk to us a little bit about what you’ve done and how you’ve improved either outcomes or even business model success. I’d love to hear maybe a couple of examples.

Justin Perun:
Yes. So specifically, we’re actually working with one opportunity that is in the medical device area whereby they’re providing essentially hearing aids is one example. And the way that we were able to help them is we actually accelerated their cash flow and we also benefited the patient because we were able to provide them a financing option whereby historically they either had very few options to pay. It was either cash check or credit card. There really wasn’t a financing option. So for this particular group, what they’ve done is, is they looked at it and said, OK, we’re willing to take a discount on that particular patient because, A, we want to make sure that these individuals obviously get the device so they can live a higher quality of life than what they are today. And the patient wins in that scenario because now they’re able to get that device and not have to be concerned about how much again, how am I going to make my payment? Do I have enough on a credit card if I give them the two thousand dollars that depletes my savings? There’s a whole host of questions there that have to be answered by the patient. But ultimately, that’s one really good example of how we were able to, again, make it a win win for both parties. The same thing happened with another group that we had hospital network, nine facilities in the behavioral health side, where that’s obviously an area that’s growing and so that historically they’ve never really had a very solid and strong collections effort kind of post the services being performed on campus, if you will.

Justin Perun:
And so when we got engaged with them, we really looked at it more as a pilot. And then that pilot now has turned into a full blown engagement with us, put in the pilot period where we were able to do is re-engage with those individuals to be able to say, hey, you had services performed. There is an outstanding balance. And we’re not just going to say to you, you’ve got six, nine, 12 months, we’re going to try to work with you to figure out what can you pay for, how long can you pay for. So that way, the money that’s being used, yeah, it’s going back to the facilities that care was performed. But the way we approached it was actually one around, not to sound funny, but around a behavior, giving them the sense that, hey, by you paying your bill, you’re now helping someone else that potentially could have could have been going through the same challenges and issues and services that you needed. And so you’re kind of helping that next person. And so that seemed to work very, very well with that demographic, that type of patient in that environment. And so when we looked at this health care industry as a whole, what we really saw saw was there was a friction between the provider and the patient. And it really was time right. because you have a provider who who is being asked to do two things, provide care and also be a business.

Justin Perun:
Those two things kind of clash with one another. And so what we tried to do is say separate those and say facility provider, do what you do best, provide the care and we’ll come in and we’ll help with the patient as it relates to the financing side of the aspect. And we’ll take the risk. We’ll provide you the accelerated cash flow created at a discount. But you’re going to get that cash flow to be able to now buy more devices, bring on more physicians, increase the number of beds at your facility, whatever the need is for that. Cash flow can be used to provide more care. And we’ll take care of the side of financing and taking the risk on that component of it. And by doing that, that’s where I think that we’ve really separated ourselves in the industry, is being able to recognize that friction and then be able to reduce. I don’t want to say eliminate, but significantly reduce that friction just through the experiences that we’ve had throughout and personally in the company, in dealing in the health care industry and then obviously doing our research and talking to individuals like yourself and other facilities and patients, what are those challenges? And that’s kind of how we were able to create both of these products was through a need and doing the due diligence and the research to come up with a product that would work for everyone involved.

Saul Marquez:
And just then it just it sounds fair. The approach sounds really fair to all parties.

Justin Perun:
Yeah, I mean, it’s cliche. I mean, when we were all sitting around the table. And the funny thing is, is my dad was retired and he came out of retirement to work with me because a little bit of kind of how this spun out. And when I told him about this, he’s like, this is a win win. And I go and he goes, no, if it really is that he goes, everybody wins in the scenario. And I go, Yeah, well, that’s how health care probably should be right. like, you shouldn’t have to make a decision at the end of the day. It should be. You can get the care. You shouldn’t have to worry about the financial aspect of it. And the one who’s providing the financial wherewithal, if you will, should win as well, because you’re obviously a party to the transaction. And so we’ve really tried to make it so. So it is fair for everybody because right now we just don’t think that there is enough solutions out there that you use your term that are fair. There’s always one side that makes out a little bit better than another, and we just happened to fall into an area and a product that just morphed into it being, OK, well, this is good for the provider. This is really good for the patient, too. And we could actually make money on this. So, yeah, let’s do it right now. I think that’s just kind of organically. And to your point, it’s because we spent the time to learn about what the provider was looking for and what their challenges were and what their issues were, what were the challenges and issues of the patient and figuring out how could you solve both of those so that both parties make out in a lot of times people will just look at the businesses and go, well, if the patient gets this, then, well, I guess the provider will win or maybe it won’t. And who cares? And they move on, whereas we really try to look at it from both perspectives to solve the problem. That’s the problem we feel is, again, that friction between those two parties. And by eliminating that, then you get to this kind of level playing field and all of a sudden people start to this makes sense now.

Saul Marquez:
So honing in on the friction, it’s that time friction Right. where hospitals need to collect it. Otherwise they have to write it off as bad debt.

Justin Perun:
Yeah. So you have kind of two challenges, Right.. You have the challenge of time and you have the challenge of a budget. Right. So your challenge is time with the hospital facilities. You’re exactly right, because typically they’re only going to go out nine to 12 months before they end up probably either selling it off or replacing it with a debt collector. And then then it comes right back on their books 60, 90 days later, where they then finally write it off. And the challenge there is, to your point, by then writing it off, they’re doing it because they don’t want to carry that money on their books because they get graded based on their days. And that obviously can have a positive or negative effect in terms of any sort of state or federal funding that they receive potentially. So all of a sudden, you have to solve for that problem is how can you accelerate that? While also the budget aspect of it is you have a patient that has a certain level of income coming in and outflow. And so that’s where the second challenge is, is, is how do you now take something where the longer time you have, theoretically, the more risk you’re going to be taking. But what we’ve done is say, yeah, we’re OK, taking more time and theoretically more risk, because what we’re doing is we’re creating the payment amount that fits that individual’s budget. So we’re not coming to them saying, OK, whether you can afford one hundred or one hundred and fifty dollars, that’s what you’re going to need to pay.

Justin Perun:
What we’re really doing is crunching the numbers in the financial application to say, based on your income, your outflows, all these different things that we’re collecting in the algorithm is running in the back end. We’re saying that we think you can afford a monthly payment of either twenty five dollars or fifty dollars or seventy five dollars, and then the patient chooses and elex the payment amount in the term one. So they actually now get the ability to choose what they get to pay. It’s just like anything else that essentially you purchase Right.. Why can’t health care be very similar? Unfortunately it’s the opposite. Usually once you. The analogy I use is once you drive on to that facility’s parking lot, you lose all control. You’re you’re basically trusting all of the nurses, the doctors, your family to make sure that you’re going to be able to live a healthy lifestyle and be able to get out of a facility healthier than when you got there. Well, we’re changing that because now we’re saying, yeah, sure, let the doctors, the nurses and your family provide the care that you need, but you should be able to choose what works for you as it relates to the financing aspect of it. So you have the resources to do this.

Saul Marquez:
Awesome. And that propensity to pay model gives that grade. I mean, really, you set it up front. Hey, this is how we come up with the propensity to pay risk score or I don’t know what you guys call it, Right.. Yeah.

Justin Perun:
So it’s a it’s a score. So we actually don’t pull any credit. That’s another unique thing for us at the end of the day. So we don’t do a hard or soft credit pull. It’s also reported information because at the end of the day, so we look at it this way, no matter whether you have an eight hundred credit score or you have a five hundred credit score, it doesn’t matter. What matters is at the end of the day, what’s the cash flow coming in? What’s your paycheck? What’s your income coming in and what’s your outflow? That’s what you’re actually trying to solve for Right. is if you’ve got five thousand coming in but you have forty five hundred going out, the likelihood of giving somebody an additional hundred dollar credit or one hundred dollar invoice every month, if you will, it’s probably not going to work. They have certain other intangible things that they need to do with that cash. But somebody who has income of five thousand, an outflow of two thousand can afford that hundred dollar payment for the next 12 months, 18 months on that bill. So what you’re really trying to do is, is come up with the ability to repay, as we call it, is the key component and driver to the. Whole thing and the way that we felt the best way to get to that apart was not by using credit historically, we want to just say we asked very specific questions, that we then run through the algorithm to be able to spit out what those dollar amounts and what those terms will be.

So that way that person can say, yeah, that that’s my budget now. That was the whole goal of the propensity to pay is what is that value to that person, not only to us, but also the value to the provider? Because a lot of these providers, as you know, collections is a challenge for them. If they collect that 20 percent, that’s a really, really strong provider at the end of the day. And they’re spending time and effort there. And so when we talk to a provider, they go, well, a discount. Yeah, but when you look at it, those individuals now in your collections team can be repurposed, if you will, to focus more on claims management or other areas of the facility that need attention, rather than calling each patient and reminding them and sending the letters and everything else. You’ve just accelerated that. And the blended rate that we’ve seen historically on the discounts comes in somewhere between 40 and 50 percent. So if we just said, let’s just say the average provider, historically we’ve seen that 20 percent will give them another five percent or twenty five percent. We’re almost doubling their cash flow with no risk. It’s a win win, as you say, for everyone involved. It really is.

Saul Marquez:
Now, this is so great just in and for everybody listening to the opportunity for for us to apply consumer insights like Justin and his team are, it’s here and it’s happening. And if you wondered how you could tackle this particular aspect of your business, if you’re a payer listening to this, this is an opportunity for you to take a look at what Justin and team have. And if you’re an employer looking to help your employees with that gap, insurance is not getting any cheaper and that’s pushing us to give our employees larger deductibles. They might need help with this. This is an opportunity for you to take a look at this to help them in a very fair way. So, Justin, you’ve been putting this business together, COVID hits. I mean, I know that’s been one of the biggest challenges for all of us, but what’s been one of your biggest setbacks and key learning that’s come out of it?

Justin Perun:
Yeah, I think for us, obviously, the challenge of COVID happening that kind of put a little damper on the MedPage relief side and some of the conversations we were having, because obviously a lot of those facilities ended up kind of more concerned, obviously, about how are they going to be able to service the community and the challenges that come with the care and the service, kind of the financial aspects of things took a much backseat at that particular moment. We’re starting to see some of those facilities and providers come back and start to have and re-engage again around patient responsibility. And what does that look like? Because they’re obviously now starting to realize that they need the cash flow to continue to support the care and services that are performed. I think what we learned from that was and ultimately what came out of that was Healthy Habits, which was essentially we said, OK, we have two choices. We can sit on our hands and wait this out or we can be active, proactive and figure out what’s going to happen. Because what we realized was, OK, there’s a pandemic, people are losing their jobs. What happens now at this point? And either they’re going to be provided COBRA, they’re probably maybe not going to be able to afford COBRA. So what happens to their health care? And so that’s where ultimately we started to get very proactive with this idea of Healthy Habits and a membership program to be able to engage with the employers directly, with the insurance companies directly, to be able to say, OK, if an individual gets laid off from their job and they cannot afford COBRA, we wanted to create a program, what we call COBRA Lite, if you will, whereby an individual would still get those rewards and perks and towards that healthy lifestyle. But then they would also get access to a telemedicine platform. They would also then get access to a zero percent interest line of credit to be used against the co-pays and deductibles in the medical expenditures. And so we looked at the pandemic in one aspect from our Medicare relief side. It obviously hurt our business and set us back a little bit. But what it allowed us to do is create a whole new product under the MedPay brand, if you will, call healthy habits, and allowed us to kind of go after a different market. And we’ve seen a lot of success with employers there. We’re starting to get ready to actually present in front of two different states on the East Coast to governors in those states to say, listen, you have some very large employers that are going to be furloughing people. They’re not, again, not going to be able to potentially afford COBRA. But maybe these employers could employ healthy habits as an alternative to COBRA. So those individuals still have access to some level of care. We know that the insurance companies are kind of stepping in and providing more help. There, but again, it’s all a financial gain, Right. it’s can you afford it? And so for us, we’ve tried to provide that level of service and that coprolite for a minimal amount of money, basically at ten dollars a month, as we say, if you could go and do away with two less cups of Starbucks a month, you’re going to have some access to health care options.

Saul Marquez:
Yeah, that’s awesome. That’s awesome. Great innovations there, Justin. And so kudos to you and your team for what you’re doing. What are you most excited about today?

Justin Perun:
I think it’s to your point, consumer finance, as it relates into health care, is such at its infancy. Right. As most people know what there’s kind of one brand out there. Everybody knows of care credit. And there’s other groups that are starting to kind of get involved and make a name for themselves. But I think what’s really exciting is, is that we’re at a point now where the industry is so large, so well developed in other areas that we’re able to come in and really make an impact and a change in an area that hasn’t been really tackled historically. And so I think that we’re going to see a lot of different types of products and innovation as it relates to how health care is not only delivered, but how you pay for it. And that’s what’s exciting to me is, is how we can take advantage of some of the technology that’s out there, some of the different ideas and innovations that will be coming down the pipe through different partners that we’re involved with on the telemedicine side, even on just on the rewards and perks side of the House, even working with some of the providers directly, it’s really interesting to see how people are looking at this segment. And it’ll be kind of it’ll be interesting to see what the end result is, Right.. And maybe it’s a combination of a couple of different things that work for people. But that’s the piece that gets me excited is is that we’re such an infancy stage that there’s the thought processes are endless of what you can do so.

Saul Marquez:
Well, folks, MedPayrelief.com, if you want to know more or visit us on our website. Outcomes Rocket Health type in MedPay and you’ll see the full podcast with Justin and transcripts, links, all the things that we’ve talked about today. I mean, just incredible stuff, but it’s MedPage Relief Dotcom to check them out directly. Justin, this has been fun. I mean, just my brain is just like so stimulated right now.

Justin Perun:
I appreciate it. We’re we’re just trying to do the right thing. I felt a great group of people that have a lot of background in this space. And and as I said, we’re just trying to make sure that it’s a win win win for everyone involved using my dad’s terminology.

And so we appreciate you spending the time, the listeners, to kind of hear what we have to say may not be a fit for everyone. And that’s OK, but at least we’re an option. So thank you very much for that opportunity. Appreciate that very much.

Yeah, Justin. And so aside from the from the website, is there any other ways that you would suggest our listeners engage with you and the team?

Justin Perun:
Yeah. So I think obviously websites one option. The other option is to go on to LinkedIn. So if you simply just search for MedPay, you can follow us there. We’ve got a pretty active digital marketing campaign. Same thing for Healthy Habits as well. So that’s an area where we announced a lot of our different press releases, things of that nature. So if you want something a little bit more engaging and following us, those are the other area that I would suggest that people follow us on as well.

Saul Marquez:
There you have it, folks. Follow them on LinkedIn, check out their website. But there’s a way to do it differently and unfairly. Fairly could be a win win win. And I mean, certainly just a great opportunity to try out a service with Justin that that could work really great things for you and your patients. Justin, thank you. This has been awesome.

Justin Perun:
Thank you very much. Appreciate it. Have a good rest of your week.

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