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Natanya Wachtel:
Brands that can connect with their audiences more viscerally and more authentically will always be successful. With the Insights Out podcast, you will get access to deep and detailed conversations with the heads of leading organizations to understand how they are making their customer relationships work best and how we can all become more aligned to deliver strong value exchanges and better realize the benefits. I'm your host, Dr. Natanya Wachtel. Welcome.

Natanya Wachtel:
Hello there, and welcome to another episode of Insights Out, where we talk to all folks across health and wellness who are working with patients, caregivers, clinicians, and consumers on the topics of mental health and wellbeing, managing chronic diseases, and working in systems to help bring care and effect positive change in the healthcare system. Today, I have a very special and very unusual guest, Dave Tarnowski. Dave is a recent internet, I was going to say sensation, who has taken an interesting bent on the popular psychology of today across a lot of the social media channels. And we're really excited to talk today because this is going to be a very different episode, but with some really important undercurrents, I think, in terms of where we are as a society and how we can maybe look to the lighter side of things, even in dark times. So thank you, Dave, for joining me, and welcome.

Dave Tarnowski:
Thanks for having me, I appreciate it.

Natanya Wachtel:
Absolutely. So can we start off just a little bit of background about you and what you're up to, and what you're comfortable sharing just to get the listeners a little bit acquainted before we get right into it?

Dave Tarnowski:
Sure. I am a former fiction writer who can never finish a novel, like ten unfinished novels under my belt. And I started, it was just something that it was like it wasn't brand new at the time, but I was like, oh, I could do this, and I started what making what they call niche memes, which is basically, it's this small kind of specialized area. My initial page was called Nick Cave and the Bad Memes, based on Nick Cave and the Bad Seeds, and it became like this overarching kind of goth music-infused. But through that, I developed skills. It's like, you do anything over and over again, you're bound to get better at it, and if you don't stop, but there were several other pages, and I ran them for a number of years. It was during my former marriage when all of this started. And after we split, I went through a **** ton of grief, it was just like literally three years that I just couldn't, not that I couldn't function, but I just wasn't doing well.

Natanya Wachtel:
You were quite affected, let's say.

Dave Tarnowski:
Yes, but during that time on these Instagram pages, I was doing Q&A. And so basically, I just started doing it, it was just like, hey, what's on your mind? And people started sharing, and it was just this incredible sort of community. But about the summer of last year, I was really at a point where I was sick of everything. I just didn't want to do any of that stuff anymore. And I went on this great vacation, it was this beautiful meditation retreat, Upstate New York Omega Institute, and I took my phone, I put it in the drawer of my room, and I didn't look at it for five days other than to check the time. And I really had time to reboot, reassess, restart. The following month I made my first what I would call disappointing affirmation, because that's my page, Disappointing Affirmations, and it got good response. And I'm like, you know what? I like this because, in the niche world, you have to fit there. I can do anything with this. One of my favorite things is when someone says, this is not a disappointment, and I'm sorry you're disappointed, I win either way.

Natanya Wachtel:
Yeah, let me pause you just for a moment, just because we want to come back and probably have nice sound bites, and that was a lot in one answer. So yeah, let's continue on with that and talk about this Instagram account, Disappointing Affirmations, that's become quite a sensation, over a million followers and reposts. So this initial experience and that retreat is that, I understand that's the genesis, but what, can you articulate what motivated you to start essentially poking fun at some of this pop-psych and overly sweet motivational psychology that kind of dominates a lot of the landscape? Like, what inspired you to take that bet?

Dave Tarnowski:
It was just a new thing, I didn't have in the forefront of my mind, Let me **** with toxic positivity; let me be the counterweight to that. That was not the initial thing. I had carried over the Q&A, in a large sense more than the memes, and I joined the two. Because one thing that I learned from the Q&A is that I'm not alone with my feelings; I'm far from alone, and it's sad how far from alone.

Natanya Wachtel:
Yeah, no, that's a huge statement. So, in essence, even though it's, by clinical standards, it's the antithesis of pop-psych inspiration, at the same time, you are truly uncovering some deep truths that many, so many people obviously relate to in many ways, and/or sometimes, in those dark times, finding humor can be a way out. That's why basically comedians are so successful, especially those observational ones who poke fun at some of the deepest, darkest things in ourselves and in our society, and yet we're laughing. It's the whole genre, right? And it's really a breath of fresh air, probably, for so many because it can also arrest that negative spiral sometimes that you're down and just catch you off guard and make you look in on yourself, because the lighter you can be, obviously the better able you actually can move forward, and it's an inverse mechanism, right, of what sort of traditionally is positive reinforcement. In terms of what motivates or inspires your posts, obviously, they're very personal things, but you shared a few in terms of marriage, breakup, and other things. Are you open to share some of the life experiences or particular topics that you feel sort of really fuel the creativity behind writing these hysterical, I feel like it's Deep Thoughts by Jack Handey 2.0?

Dave Tarnowski:
I've heard that, yeah, I've heard that. Quite honestly, a large part of it comes from me being a survivor. I, particularly through the years of grief after my marriage ended, I was very suicidal. I was drinking a ton, so I was that, like the passive-aggressive suicide, that's like self-sabotage and any kind of thing that would lead up to that. But I had always been a depressed kid or whatever. Like when I was a teen, I was mopey and blah, blah, blah, and that followed me for years until one day, I decided to actually go to a therapist and get diagnosed because I knew something was off. I knew something, I didn't fit into the normal sort of groove of people. I was emotional, and when I was emotional, I couldn't hide my emotions.

Natanya Wachtel:
And you were, and not to be overly old-fashioned, but I think, I just want to highlight that, now it's, I think, more accepted in the mainstream for all people and including males and those who identify as male, to be affected by emotions versus, I believe, when we were younger, it was much more taboo. I know even for me to express or have be affected by things and to be introspective, and part of the creativity that makes you such a wonderfully successful writer is because you are receptive to feelings, right? And to taking in stimuli and having it make you feel something such that it's almost a double-edged sword. It makes you a really great writer, but it also can cause a bit of pain because you look at the world in perhaps a lens of some bleakness or some questioning of the saccharine messages that we're told as children: be happy, go play, you can be what you want to be. And so you're like, no, I suck at this, so I suck, or whatever, I'm oversimplifying. So I think that's important to point out because when you were growing up, I would assume also you, maybe because you were saying a bit about feeling alone in your feelings that perhaps you felt othered by the way you felt and the way you behaved compared to the other, your friends, maybe?

Dave Tarnowski:
Oh, certainly, certainly. And I have two older brothers.

Natanya Wachtel:
Which I may or may not know about.

Dave Tarnowski:
You may know one of them.

Natanya Wachtel:
For few decades now, which is so awesome.

Dave Tarnowski:
But back then, when I was a kid, when they were teenagers, and I was, or when they were in their early 20s, I would get cajoled for being depressed all the time or, oh, what are you going to do, kill yourself? And nowadays, it's just, holy ****.

Natanya Wachtel:
No one would say that.

Dave Tarnowski:
So thankfully, things have changed, and that's part of what I have as my MO, basically. And because when I started this page, I didn't know what it was, but now I do know what it is. And there are three things: there is empathy, vulnerability, and more vulnerability. That is the key, and I did not learn that, I could thank my ex for a lot of that, but also, I started going to therapy and actually talking things out, and I discovered through that, that I'm like, holy ****, I can be really honest about what I feel.

Natanya Wachtel:
And then it has a catharsis, and then it goes, right?

Dave Tarnowski:
Yeah, yeah, but one thing that I do want to touch upon really quick is when you talk about suicide. Nobody wants to talk about suicide, and it's, in fact, banned on social media platforms, God forbid you talk about it. And when I do these Q&As, I can't tell you how many people write in about wanting to kill themselves, which is very heavy. People have asked me, oh, how can you take that on? And I take that on through my work and through just helping people feel seen, because that's one thing with the whole toxic positivity kind of stuff is they're not seeing everybody; they're treating everyone as these rise and grind kind of people.

Natanya Wachtel:
Yes, and/or just slightly affected mood is one level, and deep self-hatred or self-harm or self-harmonization is another layer down where platitudes, it's almost Teflon, right? And I think that's a good segue into, coming from a traditional psych background, I'm curious to talk about how you've been received. We started to talk about this a little bit before we recorded, so I want to make sure we get this on the podcast part. How your unique bent, your sarcastic approach to a lot of heavy topics, or lighter topics really, how that's been received by traditional therapists and the mental health community, and what that engagement has been like?

Dave Tarnowski:
It's been incredible. I've had many therapists, and I'm talking about hundreds, tell me that they've shared these with their clients, like actually, hey, and that they get far more out of this than they do out of any of that flowery bull****. And I don't want to put down anybody who gets anything out of positive affirmations, good.

Natanya Wachtel:
And that's important that we say that, we're not you're not bashing something that, it works for you, it works for you. That's great.

Dave Tarnowski:
This is … your way. This is an alternative. This is alternative facts, as Kellyanne Conway once coined.

Natanya Wachtel:
Can't believe that's going to be in my podcast.

Dave Tarnowski:
But what's funny, though, when you think about it, that ****, the positivity stuff, that's alternative facts. What I'm trying to bring here is reality. What I'm bringing here is, and not everybody's going to agree, not everybody's going to be into it, but not everybody who is into the Beatles, and what's …

Natanya Wachtel:
Yeah, my husband is English and he's not.

Dave Tarnowski:
There you go.

Natanya Wachtel:
He's like, I hate that music. So yeah, so your posts clearly resonate with a broad audience, right, everyday Joes, and so, inside joke, that's one of …

Dave Tarnowski:
I see what you did there.

Natanya Wachtel:
Not everyone finds humor in the sarcasm. And so I understand, and I did look through that not everyone is on board here, right? And there are people who have become perhaps quite angry, if not upset, and giving you feedback about it. How do you handle those critics and how do you respond? Do you respond, and, with those kinds of reactions to your content?

Dave Tarnowski:
Mostly, particularly since this page has exploded insanely, and the past pages had, I think, the largest amount of followers I had with Nick Cave and the Bad Memes was 200,000. This is now over a million and it's only been a year, but each time there's a new influx of followers is usually like a celebrity will share something that has millions of followers and it will also get an influx of horrible comments. And what I had to do at a certain point was just stop looking.

Natanya Wachtel:
Yeah, I've heard that mentioned often, but because you're an everyday guy. It's interesting because celebrities probably have a lot more experience having put themselves on display, whether it's a comic or an actor and/or even maybe a journalist, someone who's already put themselves out there in a critical place, they've built up a boundary and a protective layer, perhaps against that criticism. Here you are, someone who has struggled with mental health issues, taking on this outlet that gives you a release but is a bit controversial, and then people are attacking you. And you may, that may, I'm wondering that even though you talked about it in childhood and getting a little bit of cajoling from your family, This is en masse, right? This is lots of people on an everyday basis yelling at you, right? So that's why I'm curious as to how you were able to put up that boundary, and did, at any point, did it, because you were saying you had to, if you're comfortable speaking about this, by the way, did you, did it get to you? Did it make you think maybe I should stop or did it make you angry? I'm just curious about that, because you are not necessarily a trained performer up until this point, trained monkey, I'm just kidding. That's what your brother would say.

Dave Tarnowski:
Yeah, no, I'm not going to lie that comments don't get to me, certain ones certainly will. But with this thing, as I was saying, with the name being Disappointing Affirmations, if someone is disappointed in it because it's not disappointing enough, they're still disappointed in it, so either way I win. But one thing that I have come to appreciate about people giving me **** for it, is that I know, they don't understand. Because there's …

Natanya Wachtel:
You're not trying to appeal to, if it's not for you, it's not for you, is the way you made peace, like I'm not for everyone, which is a great message. And I figured you were going to say that, but I, and it is positive psych-pop, psych-bent, but forgive me for just saying in a true way, it helps build a resilience mindset, right? Re-encouraging to trust in yourself, connect with your own thoughts and beliefs and your own mission, and say this is what I'm doing for me and it helps a lot of people, and if it doesn't, that's okay. And not to be deterred in what you're doing, because I think anyone across any kind of pursuit, especially if they're a disrupter in some way or they're in a startup, or they're trying a different career, or they're trying to do something a little different against convention is going to get that. So I think there's a lot of positive message in a fun way that can come out of you sharing that, hey, this isn't, not everybody, this isn't for everyone, and I have not been deterred, but I could have been because it's been biting.

Dave Tarnowski:
Oh, sure.

Natanya Wachtel:
And so your posts, and I'm going to say a couple, they're filled with quite biting insights. So for the listeners who haven't been able to, and I definitely encourage you to check out Dave's Instagram, so a couple I just picked off the top that were rated in the top of your feed, right? No one is coming to save you, you are the adult; or you have survived all your worst days, your prize, more bad days to survive. Celebrities, all walks of life have these, I was wondering, what are some of your most favorite or most controversial, since what we were both talking about posts, are there any that were particularly endorsed or reacted to?

Dave Tarnowski:
The very first one, and I'm talking one month into starting the page. Off the cuff, I made one: Have a panic attack, you've earned it. As someone who suffers from…

Natanya Wachtel:
Oh my god, like …, but I didn't, we didn't edit it out, so here we go, yeah, okay.

Dave Tarnowski:
That got a lot of praise, but at the same time, it got a lot of people, and so people who had taken at face value and don't have any sense of nuance or don't, because mental health and nuance, it's hard to bridge that gap.

Natanya Wachtel:
Almost oil and water.

Dave Tarnowski:
Exactly, but it's what I do, right? Sometimes I do it well, sometimes I don't, but it's what I do, it's what I want to do. I call it making light by shining light. And basically, it's these things that people don't want to talk about, or they think, but they don't.

Natanya Wachtel:
And you're not dismissing the pain either. You're poking fun, you're giving a light, you're flipping the script in some ways, and then quite frankly, like you said, therapists, you, I don't actually don't remember if this was when it was recorded or not, but we talked about that some therapists have said they've actually used your clips, for lack of a better word, meme statements within their practice, and I'm imagining it becomes almost like an icebreaker. So then if there's an underlying thing that has to be maybe more traditionally approached, a bigger issue, sometimes that humor can be great. What we do with children when we want to distract them, when they're having a temper tantrum, you distract and then, you know, readjust and make something funny or cool, and then they can reset and get themselves in a place where, because talk therapy, if you're too spinning, right, like you can't really even start to become to heal and deconstruct what's going on. So I imagine that's one of the things that if you're open to looking at it, it can actually be a gateway to do even traditional therapy, and that's pretty interesting. And so following on from that, so you're carving this niche when positive psych is all the rage. And admittedly, I espouse a lot of positive psych and have been learning more recently because it wasn't a part of my original schooling as much. It's a more recent thing in terms of how to influx that into as a tool, even in corporate settings, right, but it's really taking off. So why do you think society, from your perspective, is so receptive to this alternate perspective on mental health, right? Why do what do you believe is driving the popularity of Disappointing Affirmations?

Dave Tarnowski:
I wish I knew. I wish I knew what was making it so huge. But if I had to guess, it's just an alternate take on reality that is itself an alternate take. It's, because one thing that I wanted to pop in about is I see these as inherently positive. Even the ones that are like, one of my favorites is, you're doing the best that you can, which is really ******* sad. That's what I call the stinger. I'll start with the positive one, and then just, there's another one, Take a moment to be grateful for everything you have. Okay, now back to hating everything. So it's this dichotomy.

Natanya Wachtel:
I'm already thinking merchandising, so we'll talk about that offline.

Dave Tarnowski:
Oh, I've been, and I've got a book coming out in March.

Natanya Wachtel:
Yeah, so we're going to talk about that, too, because I want to, we'll switch to, these actually are perfect. You're just, it's perfect because we didn't review these questions ahead of time. But that's exactly where I wanted to go with reflecting on this journey from being regular Instagram user, right, to this, over a million followers. Where are you going, and what do you want your legacy to be? So how do you see Disappointing Affirmations evolving? Tell us a little bit about your plans and your hopes, because I think there's going to be quite, quite a few next chapters, and I'm really excited to hear what you have in mind, and then look at, maybe a year from now, looking back, reflecting here, and seeing what you had in mind versus what comes to fruition and how that goes.

Dave Tarnowski:
Absolutely. The first thing to have in mind is doing this for a living and not having to work a day job. That's like the first thing. And when I'd gone on that vacation that I told you about, this was right before this page started, and I had decided, all right, I need to come with a five-year plan or a two-year plan or whatever it is, and so I made such a vague thing. And basically, it was just like, save up enough money to pay off my debt, get out of this job, and then I created Disappointing Affirmations and all of the stuff started. I manifested it, as a friend of mine would say. But almost immediately after I started the page, I got a publisher interested in making a book, and I had around the same time made friends with somebody who loved what I did immediately, and she's a fairly famous person. I don't know if I should mention her name, but.

Natanya Wachtel:
It's up to you. You can just say the industry or something.

Dave Tarnowski:
Yeah, it's a totally different industry, but basically, she's an influencer. She's been an influencer for years. And when I got this publisher come at me, I reached out to her and I was just like, I got this contract, this offer, and it's another language to me I don't know. Do you know any literary agents? And she said, I'll give you mine. And I started the page in July, I had a literary agent in October. And like I said, I've been …

Natanya Wachtel:
That's a great story in and of itself, too. And this is a story in and of itself, just the journey, yeah.

Dave Tarnowski:
And a month later, I had five publishers in an auction bidding on this book, which I had no idea what this book was going to be because I just started this page. So literally, when my agent, I love saying my agent, it's one of my favorite things, I think I will always love saying that; she and I put together a book proposal and she sent it out to a bunch of people. And auction day was November 1st, I went to her office, and I'm thinking, I don't know what, because that first author that came in, it was from a British publisher and it was £4,000. And I'm like, I'm not selling my **** for £4,000, but I don't know. And so I had no idea what to expect, and the money was like, it was crazy for, especially for an unknown first-time author or whatever, but that just attested to the strength of this stuff, even from the early.

Natanya Wachtel:
Because that funding, that enthusiasm, they're commercializing, they're doing their analytics and ROI. That means there's a demand and that means there's a real connection, and that means also you're a disruptor in a time where content is seeping out of our eyeballs, there is more content than ever before. So at a time when making noise is that much more difficult in a sea of shouting people, it's pretty incredible. So I also want to just congratulate you, and that's amazing, and to recognize that. One of my favorite, personal favorites, is that I'd like to try and stop worrying about what other people think. Have you met other people? They're awful.

Dave Tarnowski:
It's comic timing with these things.

Natanya Wachtel:
Oh, yes, and the cadence, the way you separate so that you make a pause, very artfully done and you have this like little space. So it's really incredible, and I cannot wait to, we're going to be doing some more things, but I cannot wait to see. I cannot wait to, ever since I started putting the alerts on mine, I was at a party last night with a lot of folks of diverse backgrounds, including other folks in Psych, and we were all laughing, it was fabulous. I can't thank you enough for sharing this with the world, sharing this conversation with me today. Before we fully wrap up, I would love for you to tell the listeners the best way to get in touch with you or find you besides obviously going to your Instagram and signing up to follow you because that would be amazing. But is there any other way you'd like folks to connect with you? And if there's any parting message before we go, please feel free to share.

Dave Tarnowski:
The only place that I have really right now is the Disappointing Affirmations Instagram. I also started one of those, what do they call it when Instagram decided to start a Twitter? I think it's spring or whatever.

Natanya Wachtel:
Yeah, the feed, yeah, the other kind of feed.

Dave Tarnowski:
But I stopped using that. But yeah, just Instagram, Disappointing Affirmations. Eventually, I will have DisappointingAffirmations.com up. I've got the domain. I do not have the patience or the savvy to put together a website, but that will come.

Natanya Wachtel:
Oh, I'm sure.

Dave Tarnowski:
Yeah, and on your recommendation, I created a LinkedIn, so I've got that going, but that's still in progress.

Natanya Wachtel:
That was like last week, so it's only been a few days.

Dave Tarnowski:
So right now it's just Disappointing Affirmations. My parting words would be, just don't be a ****.

Natanya Wachtel:
I have to say this is the most colorful language I've had on my podcast, and I guess I should have been prepared, but no, it's all great. I love it, unfiltered, it's real. I thank you. I thank you for what you're doing. I'm glad that you're pursued this sort of route and you've had the bravery to keep going when many were, maybe perhaps being a bit disheartening. And I just can't wait to be on this journey for you, be your fan girl, and continue together. And I also want to say, folks, we have some other plans together. We'll probably be doing an Instagram live pretty soon and a few other things; may or may not convince Dave to do a whole show with me because I have a feeling we have a colorful menagerie of folks we can also bring into the fold between our two networks, especially with the celebrity connection and some of the thought leaders. Because we are on the edge here of flipping the script, Dave, and it's really a fabulous way to make everyone feel like seen and heard, as you said. And so again, I just want to thank you for what you're doing as, in the mental health community, for society, for yourself, and just can't wait to see what's next.

Dave Tarnowski:
Hey, me too. Thank you. Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.

Natanya Wachtel:
Thank you for listening to Insights Out. We hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you have a specific topic in mind and you want us to discuss, please reach out to us by visiting NewSolutionsNetwork.com. See you next time!

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