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Natanya Wachtel:
Brands that can connect with their audiences more viscerally and more authentically will always be successful. With the Insights Out podcast, you will get access to deep and detailed conversations with the heads of leading organizations to understand how they are making their customer relationships work best and how we can all become more aligned to deliver strong value exchanges and better realize the benefits. I’m your host, Dr. Natanya Wachtel. Welcome.

Natanya Wachtel:
Hi there and welcome to another episode of Insights Out. Today I have a very special guest, my friend Ryan Castle. Ryan comes to us representing today the Chopra Foundation, who has been doing some very exciting work in the field of pain management and alternative therapies. Ryan’s here to talk to us about his latest paper and some really interesting things that correlated perfectly with some of the mainstream news around the opioid epidemic. So as we know, this is a significant situation here, it’s really a major public health crisis. I believe it’s, 110 million people died from opioids in 2022 alone. And so current approaches to pain management are not enough, that are needed, you know, from surgical interventions and otherwise. So what if there’s an alternative to opioids that can provide effective pain relief? Well, there’s some new research that suggests that yoga may offer just such an alternative. So in this podcast, we’re going to explore how yoga can be used as a safe and natural way to manage pain and discuss potential roles in addressing the opioid epidemic at the end. So join us as we start this conversation with Ryan. And the first thing I’d love to do is if you could just spend a few minutes telling us a little bit about yourself and how you came to study this topic.

Ryan Castle:
Yes, thank you. First of all, it’s fantastic to be here. I think this is a really important topic and I’m grateful for the opportunity to talk about it with you. A little bit of background on myself. I’ve been working with the Chopra Foundation for about ten years now, and most of that time has been spent in public health research, collaboration between different research and public health institutions, all of which was geared around trying to increase the visibility and the implementation of behavioral medicine, integrative medicine, and the understanding that mind-body medicine is not simply a matter of an indulgence or something that makes us feel better. This is something that is biomedically supported, that’s consistently meta-analysis and research have shown that mind-body therapies have a physiological as well as a psychological benefit to the human body. And so we’ve been trying to put that in front of more people because we really feel that that’s something that can make a difference. It isn’t being fully leveraged. And my role with that has largely been through research, organizing collaborations between universities, international bodies, and the different nonprofits around the world. So we do a lot of peer-reviewed research as well as advising on policy and sometimes everything from advising on appropriations bills to advising or consulting to governments on public health outreach programs.

Natanya Wachtel:
Awesome. Well, we thank you for being such a champion. And today’s topic I have a very personal connection too, for the listeners that know me and those that don’t, have had transformative experiences and existence, basically with chronic pain and using yoga to not only mitigate, but even alleviate and remove a life that was filled with basically pain all the time. So this is a very near and dear to my heart topic, and I’d love for you to kind of break some of it down for the listeners. One of the things that you do so well is breaking down some of the high science into things that everyone can understand and really anyone can incorporate into their daily life. So I was wondering if you could start by maybe explaining some of the evidence behind, and how you got to the idea that, you know, practicing yoga can alleviate or support the alleviation of pain.

Ryan Castle:
Yeah, absolutely. So this is something that a lot of people have been using yoga for, not just for years, honestly, for centuries, and yoga has long been considered a major pain management approach. But one of the problems that a lot of researchers have run into is supporting that through the evidence. You can have 100,000 people who say, yeah, no, absolutely it works. But how do you show that on a piece of paper? How do you put a bar graph demonstrating the efficacy of something based on anecdotes?

Natanya Wachtel:
And have the scientific community validate it, that those are clinical endpoints just like they would any other clinical trial.

Ryan Castle:
Exactly, and so that was, our goal was to be able to map the mechanisms by which yoga interacts with the pain system. Because if we can map it, if we can see how yoga interfaces with every single one of the mechanisms within the pain system and pain management approaches, we can see precisely does yoga have the ability to interact with those systems? Is there an ability for it to reduce pain and if so, how? It’s sort of like we know there are people inside the house. There are a lot of people who say, yeah, I walked through that door right there, that big door that says yoga, and we came into this house called pain management. You didn’t see them walk through the door. So you’ve got to go check it out, stand by the door, and wait until somebody walks in so that you can verify something that you already really know, but you can see how does it open? Does the door open inward or outward? Who’s walking through? How quickly do they walk through? It’s the sort of thing that we have to do in research of validating things that’s common sense already knows, but if we want to be able to push that further and especially get it adopted into the biomedical arena, we’ve really got to be able to show how this works, nuts and bolts.

Natanya Wachtel:
Awesome. It’s interesting, you know, that it sort of almost goes without saying that a lot of these things that we’re working on from the eastern traditions have been around for hundreds of years, and yet we’re validating them today. And I think it’s really more just making them fit with the measures that are most comfortable for Western treaters, right? So getting a treatment paradigm that fits the mold, something that’s measurable, acceptable, and has those control parameters. So there’s some discipline there in a format, although there’s been discipline in the practice for hundreds of years, so it’s an interesting situation. That said, how have you seen, or within the paper that, you know, there’s some talks about how yoga can be used in conjunction with some traditional medical approaches to pain management, so is this, you know, are you advocating for a sort of stand-alone and, or, and then we’ll go into a little bit about what do we mean when we say yoga? So first, I would like to just talk about maybe the interplay between East and West and what you found there.

Ryan Castle:
Absolutely. And to touch on what you first said in terms of validating something that’s, a lot of people don’t necessarily feel needs validating because they’ve been doing it for ages, the way I like to put this is science is a language. Science is a way of explaining things in a certain way, in the same way that it’s, English or Mandarin explains things using different terms. So when we’re able to approach something like yoga and pain management and we’re able to put it into the language of science, we’re making it accessible to an entirely new and large group of people who otherwise may not have spoken the language that it was being explained in before.

Natanya Wachtel:
And then effect change in larger populations, because those people in turn set the tone for the care of millions of lives. Absolutely.

Ryan Castle:
Precisely, and in terms of East versus West, I definitely don’t believe it is East versus West, it’s East and West. It’s not the either-or, it’s an and. So there are lots of different mainstream pain management techniques, physical therapy, different CBT approaches, different attempts to deal with pain on a lot of different levels, including if there is an acute cause of the pain. That acute symptom needs to be addressed if it isn’t already. And Western medicine is very good at dealing with acute problems when …

Natanya Wachtel:
Right, like we’re not saying if you’re shot, do some yoga, just to be clear. I know that, but again, just for the record.

Ryan Castle:
Right, or you know, even less dramatically, if you have a torn ligament, you’re not going to fix that with yoga. You need to go to a doctor, you need to get that checked out. However, where a lot of times a medical doctor would say, okay, well, and now you’re just going to have to deal with the pain as it recovers, and perhaps here’s a prescription to deal with it. Another option would be approaching that through a mind-body intervention that is going to be perhaps less problematic than a lot of pain medicine prescriptions, and to a significant degree, has greater amount of efficacy long term. And that’s one of the areas where mind-body interventions have a much more significant efficacy is in chronic conditions, sort of long-term healing.

Natanya Wachtel:
Right, chronic inflammation and even things that are like fibromyalgia, chronic inflammation, all kinds of things like that across all the body system. Now, this might be a bit pedantic, but just humor me here. Can you talk a little bit about what is yoga, as you describe it, in terms of are there specific poses? Is there a specific duration? What about people who’ve never done it before? Like, how do you start and what do you mean by what you’re recommending?

Ryan Castle:
That is a very good question and unfortunately, a question I don’t have an extremely concise answer to, because it’s that, the worst of all answers, which is it depends.

Natanya Wachtel:
That’s fair, that’s fair. We’ll start with, let’s just broach it.

Ryan Castle:
So what we did find is that there aren’t specific poses that are better or worse, but there are combinations of yogic practice that are better or worse. Any yoga is better than no yoga, to be clear.

Natanya Wachtel:
Yeah, that’s a big step.

Ryan Castle:
Right, but the more that you incorporate mind-body practice into it, the more efficacy you start to see. So there are some yoga studios where there is very little engagement internally. It’s approached as an aerobics class and you’re.

Natanya Wachtel:
A physical body.

Ryan Castle:
Poses. It’s just purely physical exercise and that’s wonderful, it has its own benefits, but when you start incorporating a lot more of the more traditional aspects of yoga, which include introspection and meditative states as your approach or adopting physical postures and sensing what is happening within your body at the same time, that’s when we really start to see the effects, especially in pain management, really just shoot through the roof, because at that point you are, and I don’t want to get into all the nitty-gritty of the science until and if you want me to, but we start seeing the brain remapping its response to pain once we have deliberately and intentionally tied our perception to our physical body. And that’s something that you need to have an introspective practice in order to really get the most out of it.

Natanya Wachtel:
I mean, that’s the part I geek out over big time. We talk about a lot of things in the mental health space, in gut and nutrition health space, where we look at gut-brain and looking at connecting body systems and ways of being, and connecting our consciousness, as you said. And so some people find yoga as a discipline of the physical movement, that’s one level of familiarity or not. Then there’s the idea of doing something out of the home with other people, that could be a barrier, so we can talk about later, you know, how you could do this at home and it doesn’t have to cost anything. And the layering of these additional elements, such as the meditation or the mindfulness and the introspection and guiding sort of what you say to yourself, how you breathe, that exponential shift in what it does for an effective change on pain management and how it literally changes your brain, and I think, I’m just restating what you said, but I think that is the magic sentence for me. And I would love if you could just talk a little bit about some of the science in terms of what that change looks like. Is it a sustained change? Like, tell us a little bit more about that, because that’s a pretty powerful thing to posit.

Ryan Castle:
I’m going to do my best not to completely geek out here because you just asked me for details on the science. So I’m going to try to.

Natanya Wachtel:
Level one, level one.

Ryan Castle:
Yes. So you’re absolutely right, it is a big thing to state, and that’s one of the reasons why we really wanted to approach this from a level where we had to quantify everything. We didn’t want to be assuming any interactions that we couldn’t verify and we weren’t able to track. So this was a large-scale meta-analysis. We were able to bring in hundreds of different research papers, track the clinical reports and all of them take a look at the nervous system and the nociceptors through the nervous system. Nociceptors are the ways that we interpret pain throughout the body.

Natanya Wachtel:
… And signals, because it’s, I was going to say, should we just break it down? No, that’s good enough. Okay.

Ryan Castle:
Now, what I find very interesting and what really seems to be the area where yoga interacts with this is that nociceptors don’t decide whether or not a signal is good or bad. It simply activates and then your brain tags it with what the signal means. So you can have a strong sensation come in and then your brain is going to get that sensation and it’ll decide whether or not this is something good or something bad. So a good example I like to think of is the first time that you, for instance, apply icy-hot to your skin. The very first time you’ve never experienced intense menthol on your skin, your body reacts, your nociceptors are going to be getting that sensation of the menthol, send a signal, and it might burn. Like, oh, this is, what is happening, this is awful. Then your body gets used to it and realizes, okay, there’s not actually damage happening right here, and you’ll feel that sensation start to change, and it’ll start to become more mellow. And the chemical is still there, the chemical hasn’t broken down. What is changing is the way that your body is tagging that information.

Natanya Wachtel:
I love it. That’s a beautiful way to break that down. Thank you.

Ryan Castle:
Thank you. It’s a tricky situation when you start dealing with chronic pain, however, because you are dealing with damage, that is something that is a risk. Let’s say I damaged my knee and my knee is healing, but my body, my brain, and my entire nervous system knows that there was damage coming from that area. Every time I get a strong signal from that knee, my brain is going to be warning me, careful, careful, that was injured. If there’s any strong sensation coming from there, that’s a bad thing. We need to flush your system.

Natanya Wachtel:
Anticipating, right? I mean, there’s the whole psychology around the anxiety loop, around the anticipation of that signaling.

Ryan Castle:
Precisely. When you start to put that leg forward, you start to put weight on it, your brain starts anticipating, this is going to hurt, at which point it floods all of the nerves around there with inflammatory cytokines and it starts becoming more sensitive, which makes it hurt, which tells your brain, you see, I told you, you should never put weight on it, it’s going to hurt.

Natanya Wachtel:
Right, or overcompensate with other muscle groups and that kind of thing, so again.

Ryan Castle:
Exactly. So what yoga is very unique in is, it combines a physical movement that is slow, steady, and safe. So slowly putting your knee out there and applying some weight on it in a controlled environment as opposed to, maybe I can just jump up onto this ladder. You’re putting weight in a controlled movement, it’s well dispersed, you’re balanced, deliberate. At the same time, if you’re using introspective meditation or if you’re even simply being mindful of your body as you’re doing this, the nociceptors actually more or less get told to open themselves back up again. So because they are receiving a lot of signal from your introspection, they’re effectively getting signals from two different places. They’re getting the usual pain signals, and you’re also trying to override that with introspection of saying, reassess that, look at that information, what is happening in my knee. And that can actually open up the nervous system to retag those nociceptors and that sensation so that when you start to lean in, whereas previously, as soon as any sensation came through, you know, pain, terrible pain, don’t do it, stop, it gets tagged as, oh, you know, this is actually starting to recover a little bit. I can lean further than I had before. It doesn’t cause alarm, it doesn’t cause a spike of anxiety and fear, which leads directly to pain. So we’re able to actually reorient the way that our brain processes fear, we’re able to change the labels on our nociceptors from saying pain for every sensation into opening it up to reassess every time you move it so you’re able to start to heal, you’re able to change the signals with that chronic pain as that knee heals, which is one of the big problems that we have with chronic pain, is that even as an injury starts to heal, we’re still getting the signaling that it hasn’t.

Natanya Wachtel:
Right, which does lead to why sometimes there’s medication overuse outside of, you know, sort of the street use of some of these drugs. So to give an homage to, there’s a real signaling that people are responding to, that’s why they’re taking it. And it’s crude to say you can recross your uncrossed wires, but it’s sort of like that in what you’re describing, and I think people can at least accept that. And then it might be a little bit of a leap for some folks, but we do have data from all across neurological science journals around what self-talk and mindfulness can do in terms of physical changes in the body. So unlike in physical therapy, where you might do some similar movements as in yoga to some degree, especially in terms of moving carefully and slowly and isolating certain muscle groups, you’re usually like in a room full of other random people doing all different kinds of stuff, and maybe you’re left alone to do your reps or what have you, and you’re thinking about your stress and your job or what have you. And I think one of the differences here is what you talked about, that cumulative effect of kind of internalizing the mantras, if you will, or statements that you want to tell your body to pay attention to and your mind such as like this practice can heal and strengthen my body and say that enough times within yourself so that your body is like, okay, well that’s what we’re doing here, and then it’s focus on healing rather than focus on receiving pain. I’m oversimplifying it, but just to sort of state that it is literally like a reprogramming of self.

Ryan Castle:
I actually don’t think you’re oversimplifying at all. I think what you’re doing is breaking it down into what we tried to do at the culmination of the paper, which is describe this as a system. This is a complex adaptive system, which means at its most potent, it is a high-level examination. We’re looking at what is the big picture here. You can get down into the small mechanical components of, okay, well, it’s about moving joints to a degree that they didn’t feel comfortable, it’s about retagging nociceptors, it’s about decreasing anxiety in the brain. But the way that that really all comes together is as a system. And what I mean by complex adaptive system is that is, to put it a simple way, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.

Natanya Wachtel:
Yes.

Ryan Castle:
All of these things combined, the change in your perception, the increased physical movement, the influences on your nervous system and your emotional state, and your increased mindfulness, all of these things are great individually. If you did any single one of them, that’s fantastic, but they’re synergistic. So you do two of them, it’s not one and one, it’s two. It’s one and one is 2.5.

Natanya Wachtel:
At least.

Ryan Castle:
And the more that you combine.

Natanya Wachtel:
And it’s exponential, it’s exponential improvement, as well as sort of subtle things that other folks in either mental health practice or just human beings can recognize around what we were talking about, that anticipation, that fear, that anxiety in terms of daily living. So you start to feel better, other chemicals start coming, and all those good feel-good chemicals start coming and that also literally helps reinforce, this feels-good, I want to keep doing it. So it’s a positive feedback loop that starts to happen and can transcend the yoga practice, the meditation, and the mindfulness into the whole person’s healing and outcomes related to, we’ve seen other many, many other papers about how that mindset can ultimately truly affect at a cellular level. So like you said, that’s one piece, but it starts to come into often many other facets of a person’s life. So it’s just incredible. It’s, I’m so, obviously, so excited for this to get even more widely read than it has, although it is getting quite widely read. I wanted to just kind of shift for just a moment into some of the barriers and challenges that you see in terms of whether it was in the actual research gathering the meta-analysis or within some of the papers, or just anecdotally in industry, when you’re trying to look at how this is being used, being used, and what are some of those barriers for, let’s say, clinicians to prescribe this as part of a treatment protocol?

Ryan Castle:
Yeah, unfortunately, there have been quite a few barriers, and both in the scientific world and in the implementation world. Scientifically, there’s the problem that, haven’t had a clear idea of what to track and how to track it when they’ve been doing research into yoga. So one study will be taking a look at inflammation and then another study looks at self-reported pain analysis. So people simply saying, oh, my pain was at a ten, now it’s at an eight.

Natanya Wachtel:
Right, but you and I experience tens differently.

Ryan Castle:
Exactly, and how do you compare that with blood samples and how do you compare the blood samples with increased mobility in joints and.

Natanya Wachtel:
Cardiovascular strength.

Ryan Castle:
Yeah, cardiovascular strength, lifespan, health span, rates of dementia.

Natanya Wachtel:
Right, and what is the yoga that we’re talking about.

Ryan Castle:
Exactly.

Natanya Wachtel:
What’s the duration?

Ryan Castle:
Pure asanas, or are we talking about Kundalini? What are we working with? And that’s the reason why one of the big things that we’ve really tried to focus on in this paper was approaching this as a system and mapping it. This is actually the first time that there’s ever been a mathematical and quantifiable definition of a mind-body intervention as a complex system. And one of the reasons we wanted to do that specifically was to provide a framework so that in the future people can say, well, we’re going to be doing a study on yoga and inflammation, this is where that fits into this broader complex system. This isn’t the beginning, middle, and end of the story. This is one component so that as each of these studies come in, they’ll be able to feed into each other. We’ll be able to build off of that knowledge and know what part of the system we’re looking at.

Ryan Castle:
That’s amazing.

Natanya Wachtel:
In terms of implementation, that’s unfortunately even more difficult because we’ve got, the medical community has some degree of assumptions about yoga. It’s turning around, it’s turning around rather quickly, fortunately. But there are still a lot of doctors who feel that yoga and meditation are indulgences.

Natanya Wachtel:
Something that’s nice to have.

Ryan Castle:
Yeah, it would be nice if you want to do that, sure, but make sure that, you know.

Natanya Wachtel:
You take this pill.

Ryan Castle:
Exactly, yeah. Take your prescription. Your oxycodone is more important than your yoga. And our hope is to try to get more medical doctors to understand that these are not indulgences, that there is, in fact, very often a greater degree of evidence for the medical efficacy of yoga in terms of long-term pain management than there is.

Natanya Wachtel:
Yeah, look at the risk profile. Any other kind of thing, we were comparing in pharma, let’s say, you would say, well, this is an obvious pathway we would want to explore. I think getting standards around, like you said, mathematical formulations as well as standards around or guidance around what that practice may be and how to do that. Not saying that they’re end-all-be-all like you said, but having some baseline for those who aren’t familiar because the other reason that there’s a barrier, as you know, is that stigma, the cultural bias, and-or a potential involuntary defensiveness because it’s not something that’s taught often in medical schools or at least not 10 and 20 years ago, and so it’s a challenge to the comfort zone. And so I think that’s where we’re trying to see some of this come into play to at least start to have the conversations and have the data that allow us to have the conversations in the room with decision-makers, as well as looking at alternatives not only to opioids and pain relievers or even anti-inflammatory medications again, as needed as well in combination, but also surgical interventions. I personally also believe, which is, you know, I’m probably not supposed to say, but that many surgical events are happening that don’t need to happen, that we have a propensity to heal at not just young ages, but at all ages and such that sometimes most of the reason people get surgery is because of the pain, the chronic pain, versus there’s a time, like you said, there’s an acute situation and a time situation, but there may be even further, I’m hoping that this hopefully opens the door to re-examining our whole approach to care, especially in terms of injury and pain and chronic pain. So this is incredible, and I, thank you so much. I just realized we’re probably running a little short on time. So I guess if there’s any closing thoughts, sorry, that you have and would like to share, we’d love to hear that. And then also, if you could tell us a little bit about how people can get involved and connect with you?

Ryan Castle:
Sure, I would say just in terms of closing thoughts, I think you really touched on something important there. You mentioned that a lot of us assume that we can heal really well when we’re younger, and as we get older, we just don’t heal as well anymore. And increasingly, we’re realizing that that is not a matter of inherent capability, that is a matter of increased amount of physiological and psychological baggage that we start to carry over the years, and we just gather more and more and more. And one of the bigger things that we carry is inflammation, and that inflammation can come from tagged nociceptor problems. So we have pain, it’s tagged as pain, we start having inflammation around that, the body doesn’t heal as quickly when there’s systemic inflammation, which means everything starts to hurt more. Every new injury hurts more and takes longer to heal. And we think, well, guess that just comes with age. It’s not the age, it’s the damage to the system that has never been addressed that we’ve just been ignoring the entire time. Whereas we found people who are able to reduce their level of inflammation, who are able to rewire the pain tags on their own injuries and their own body, are able to heal at rates that we see in people 20 years younger.

Natanya Wachtel:
I wouldn’t have believed it, honestly, it’s terrible to say this, if I didn’t experience it for myself. I had a lot of athletic injuries and many things that they were like, how are you walking? And it’s all gone. And it’s in MRIs, like it’s not in my head. I mean, it’s really gone. And I am just so grateful to you because I get evangelical about this personally, but professionally, I really would love more clinicians’ openness. And I think the discipline and the rigor and the amazing work that you have been, have done here in the foundation is really hopefully going to truly reshape how you do this in the globe, and so thank you from the bottom of my heart for helping be this bridge to this and for joining me today. So lastly, very importantly, how would you like folks who are listening to get in touch with you to either get involved or just ask more questions?

Ryan Castle:
Well, I would say, first of all, thank you so much for having me on here. I 100% agree with you, and it’s an important thing that you’re talking about and touching on. Thank you for everything you’ve been doing. In terms of next steps, if people agree with you that this is the type of thing that we need more of.

Natanya Wachtel:
They better.

Ryan Castle:
Which, I definitely think we need a lot more of this because as I said, there hasn’t been enough consistent research and implementation of this, of yoga as a pain management. If you think that that’s the right type of approach, I would say reach out to the Chopra Foundation because they put a lot of work into this. There were a lot of resources and a lot of labor and strings that had to be pulled to get this level of research out there, and organizations like this, really their entire goal is to try to improve as many lives as they can. So if you’re able to reach out to them and say, hey, I heard this and it changed my mind, or it makes me want to contribute something, or I want to get involved in that, that lets them know that all of that work that they put in is going to a good end. So that in and of itself, just from a purely sort of human and spiritual level, can make a huge difference in people’s lives who were putting this research together. Like I said, also do a lot of institutional outreach and collaboration, so if there’s anybody who wants to work on actually pushing this type of work out there, would I be able to give you an email to attach to the.

Natanya Wachtel:
Yeah, we can put that in the show promo stuff, definitely.

Ryan Castle:
Okay.

Natanya Wachtel:
So then they can find you on LinkedIn as well. So it’s another way to connect with you.

Ryan Castle:
Yeah, Ryan Castle.

Natanya Wachtel:
And this is a little controversial, but I’ll close with this. So at the end of the day, a lot of these treatments that are not manufactured and sold by the unit are often not used because of that, right? Where is the money in it? Where is the money in it? It’s terrible, but I’m going to say, and so I would like to argue and ask and put a call out there to make an effort to develop some pharmacoeconomic models that I believe are possible if we show lack of hospital readmissions, avoided surgery costs, obviously within the opioid abuse or any other kind of pain medication abuse, whether that be treatment costs, loss of life. So I believe that there is a cost-benefit analysis, it might be a little bit challenging to do, but I believe it’s here. And I think that ties into the next paper that’s we’re working on, looking at how investing in some proactive wellness ultimately, quote-unquote, has an ROI for your organization or system, whether you’re an employer group, whether you’re a payer, and I think that’s an important thing to note. You know, most of the folks listening here on the network are in corporate America or are in clinical practice. And so we think this is not just a feel-good story. We think this is a revolution in approach, and a feel-good story, and a bottom-line story. We need some help, I think, to get that piece done. So I would also like to put that out as a shout-out to get in touch with Ryan or myself if you have any ideas or ways to help. Okay, thank you so much.

Ryan Castle:
Thank you very much.

Natanya Wachtel:
Thank you for listening to Insights Out. We hope you enjoyed today’s episode. If you have a specific topic in mind and you want us to discuss, please reach out to us by visiting NewSolutionsNetwork.com. See you next time!

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